Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Oldgateboatdriver]

As usual, the story of the 18 Halifax's is a little more complex.

First of all, the first 12 - batch I - were all to be the same design, known as the City class. And we got them all.

Batch II was to be modified if possible to carry AAW area weapons and replace the IRO's. They were to be known as the Province class and bear the names of provinces (the four largest plus one from each end of the country).

The Batch II was sacrificed as a result of the Mulroney  government White Paper so that the money saved would cover the extra cost of switching the submarine replacements from 4 to 6 diesel to 6 to 8 nuclear boats. Had it happened, a navy with 12 HAL's and even just 6 Trafalgar (the preferred choice) boat would have been a lot more powerful than a HAL/Province group of 18 vessels plus 6 diesel boats.

Then two things happened: Huge federal deficits due to the recession of 1982 and, much more importantly, the sudden end of the Cold War as the USSR collapsed and the Wall fell, leading to a demand for a "peace dividend". That is what did in both the submarine replacement program (the whole thing, in any form) and the Batch II Province class vessels.

 

[ringo]

IMHO the Tribal names should be reserved for next generation submarines.

 

[Gorgo]

IMHO the Tribal names should be reserved for next generation submarines.

That's another possibility

 

[Lumber]

"next generation submarines."

The what now?

 

[dapaterson]

The what now?

This...

 

[MilEME09]

This...

Coming in 2200

 

[YZT580]

great concept expect significant federal funding for the development.  Wouldn't need the JSS so big savings there.  Fully green so both the NDP and Green party will sign on as well. 

 

[dapaterson]

Coming in 2200

Well, the Brits need to get all the useful life out of it before we get it.

 

[Underway]

Very nice article in the War Zone about the CSC.

Canada's New Frigate Will Be Brimming With Missiles


Some things they look at that are new: the potential for Anti Ship Tomahawk Cruise missiles and point to the anti-access/area-denial capability of these kinds of weapons, the fact that only the US, France and GB have land-attack cruise missiles in NATO and that the Sea Ceptor can double as a point defence missile if necessary.

Also an interesting opinion piece about BMD by Stealth in the CSC, from the Canadian Naval Review.

 

[Underway]

Podcast with RAdm Donovan who's the RCN's head guy for the CSC.

https://www.cgai.ca/designing_the_navys_future_ship 

Some good info for those interested in the project and how the RCN actually interacts with projects.

There are plenty of other interesting podcasts on this channel as well.  Good resource.

 

[suffolkowner]

So it seems from the graphic that we're staying with the same propulsion system as the type 26.

With regard to the the torpedoes it says twin launch tubes. But does that mean 1 x 2 tubes, or 2 x 2 tubes, or 2 x 3 tubes? So twin launchers or twin tubes?

 

[Underway]

So it seems from the graphic that we're staying with the same propulsion system as the type 26.

With regard to the the torpedoes it says twin launch tubes. But does that mean 1 x 2 tubes, or 2 x 2 tubes, or 2 x 3 tubes? So twin launchers or twin tubes?

A lot of the Euro navies have gone with a single twin (double barreled...) launcher.  Newer torps can turn towards the target even under the ship, whereas older ship launched torps didn't do that.  For the CSC (speculation follows) I would suspect either its a single twin launcher or two twin launchers.  Of those options I would bet on the single twin launcher.

 

[Cloud Cover]

A lot of the Euro navies have gone with a single twin (double barreled...) launcher.  Newer torps can turn towards the target even under the ship, whereas older ship launched torps didn't do that.  For the CSC (speculation follows) I would suspect either its a single twin launcher or two twin launchers.  Of those options I would bet on the single twin launcher.

I thought that we would acquire RUM 139C for the VLS, but a twin launcher frees up cells so thats also good news for the punch.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I thought that we would acquire RUM 139C for the VLS, but a twin launcher frees up cells so thats also good news for the punch.

With enemy submarines about to add a SAM capability as the CSC's are entering service which would be a tremendous threat to our helicopters, does it not make sense to add a few cells of VL-ASROC?  The rationale being that it ensures opposing submarine captains know that if they try to engage our Huey's, by exposing themselves they will be subject to immediate targeting by the mother ship....even if the ship is at a significant distance away.  It seems like it would be a relatively cheap way to ensure that the submarine captain is more likely to try to hide from our Huey's as opposed to potentially getting cocky and trying to hunt them.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

With enemy submarines about to add a SAM capability as the CSC's are entering service which would be a tremendous threat to our helicopters, does it not make sense to add a few cells of VL-ASROC?  The rationale being that it ensures opposing submarine captains know that if they try to engage our Huey's, by exposing themselves they will be subject to immediate targeting by the mother ship....even if the ship is at a significant distance away.  It seems like it would be a relatively cheap way to ensure that the submarine captain is more likely to try to hide from our Huey's as opposed to potentially getting cocky and trying to hunt them.

That is the beauty of Mk41 VLS- once you own the launcher, you can add pretty much any missile the US makes, whenever you want.

 

[AlexanderM]

With enemy submarines about to add a SAM capability as the CSC's are entering service which would be a tremendous threat to our helicopters, does it not make sense to add a few cells of VL-ASROC?  The rationale being that it ensures opposing submarine captains know that if they try to engage our Huey's, by exposing themselves they will be subject to immediate targeting by the mother ship....even if the ship is at a significant distance away.  It seems like it would be a relatively cheap way to ensure that the submarine captain is more likely to try to hide from our Huey's as opposed to potentially getting cocky and trying to hunt them.

Or even if the helicopter is otherwise busy. I've often thought this would be a good backup to have, even just a couple would be good, I would think.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

That is the beauty of Mk41 VLS- once you own the launcher, you can add pretty much any missile the US makes, whenever you want.

Honestly, as soon as I saw "Strike Length Cells" I and assumed it was for BMD and ASROC.  I was shocked that the actual intention was Tomahawks.

Do we ever do exchanges with the Americans or Japanese so we'd know how they tactically employ ASROC if it were later to be added to the CSC quiver?

 

[Underway]

Honestly, as soon as I saw "Strike Length Cells" I and assumed it was for BMD and ASROC.  I was shocked that the actual intention was Tomahawks.

Do we ever do exchanges with the Americans or Japanese so we'd know how they tactically employ ASROC if it were later to be added to the CSC quiver?

I think the true intention was future proofing.  If you have strike length you can go smaller.  As for ASROC if we got them we would do the proper training and planning to use them properly.  If that requires courses or training with allies it would be part of the plan.

 

[MTShaw]

I think the true intention was future proofing.  If you have strike length you can go smaller.  As for ASROC if we got them we would do the proper training and planning to use them properly.  If that requires courses or training with allies it would be part of the plan.

Given that Lockheed Martin is at the top of the contractor cake, I would be stunned if the LRASM wouldn’t at least be offered. And any ABM missile purchases would be hush-hush.

So who knows.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I would love this.  My only dislike is that Haida wouldn't be available, as the name is still currently in commission for the ceremonial flagship.  Would have loved to see HMCS Haida sailing around doing the business again.  My other vote would be for Canadian mythological creatures.  HMCS Wendigo would win the cool name award. 

AAW will be a combination of Sea Ceptor, ESSM II and SM2 MkIII.  Because the ESSM and SM2 would be placed in the VLS on the foc'sle those numbers may vary depending on the mission/threat.  The main AAW weapon however would be the SM2.  ESSM is good as "point defence" not area defense.  You can help a buddy who's close but its like the infield compared to the entire ballpark that is SM2.

I would expect a standard loadout would be 24 Sea Ceptors (as their launchers are dedicated to them), 24 ESSM (taking up 8 VLS as they are quad packed) and then 24 SM2.  If you were carrying tomahawks of course the SM2 numbers might be reduced to as low as 16.  That's speculation though, you could mix and match all those VLS numbers for your mission.  You could specialize in the role for the task group.  One CSC as a dedicated land attack platform carries all the tomahawks and the other three carry the SM2's to protect it.

I'm not entirely sure what capability the 127mm has for air warfare, I think its advertised as having some, but with its rate of fire/traverse I would suspect that it's not considered a viable option for anything other than slow moving targets.

A little (reloadable) point defence humour: