Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Colin Parkinson]

Dang I was tired, thanks for the AAW answer, but meant to say ASW weapons?

 

[Uzlu]

Dang I was tired, thanks for the AAW answer, but meant to say ASW weapons?

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/canada-mk-54-lightweight-torpedoes

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I would love this.  My only dislike is that Haida wouldn't be available, as the name is still currently in commission for the ceremonial flagship.  Would have loved to see HMCS Haida sailing around doing the business again.  My other vote would be for Canadian mythological creatures.  HMCS Wendigo would win the cool name award. 

AAW will be a combination of Sea Ceptor, ESSM II and SM2 MkIII.  Because the ESSM and SM2 would be placed in the VLS on the foc'sle those numbers may vary depending on the mission/threat.  The main AAW weapon however would be the SM2.  ESSM is good as "point defence" not area defense.  You can help a buddy who's close but its like the infield compared to the entire ballpark that is SM2.

I would expect a standard loadout would be 24 Sea Ceptors (as their launchers are dedicated to them), 24 ESSM (taking up 8 VLS as they are quad packed) and then 24 SM2.  If you were carrying tomahawks of course the SM2 numbers might be reduced to as low as 16.  That's speculation though, you could mix and match all those VLS numbers for your mission.  You could specialize in the role for the task group.  One CSC as a dedicated land attack platform carries all the tomahawks and the other three carry the SM2's to protect it.

I'm not entirely sure what capability the 127mm has for air warfare, I think its advertised as having some, but with its rate of fire/traverse I would suspect that it's not considered a viable option for anything other than slow moving targets.

Or have each ship in the TG carry the exact same missile loadout, since the CSC will have Cooperative Engagement Capability, they can launch each other’s missiles. There is no reason now the AAWC has to carry all the SM2s- you can spread them out.

 

[Underway]

Or have each ship in the TG carry the exact same missile loadout, since the CSC will have Cooperative Engagement Capability, they can launch each other’s missiles. There is no reason now the AAWC has to carry all the SM2s- you can spread them out.

Absolutely. I believe that you are correct that CEC will change entirely the way task groups fight, and therefore are armed.

Dang I was tired, thanks for the AAW answer, but meant to say ASW weapons?

Mk54 ship launch torp, don't quote me on this but I suspect there is only a single launcher (going with the current trends in new European ships)

The most important weapon though is a Cyclone.  The rest of the stuff is nice but the Cyclone is the monster that hunts and kills things.

 

[Navy_Pete]

While I was in quarantine at Trenton I sent a fairly detailed email to the Deputy Commander RCN on how we could go about naming all the CSCs after the indigenous people of Canada. Call it Tribals 3.0.

I got a fairly positive reply and he was going to forward it to the Ships Naming Committee. His wife is Metis and she liked the idea as well.
I've heard crickets since but my glass half full attitude is that the RCN is doing the background work to get permissions from the First Nations, Metis, and Inuit communities before going public with anything. Tribal or named after prominent Matriarchs/Patriarchs would work for me as well.

From being on the 280s we seemed to have pretty good relations with the namesake tribes. Hopefully something like that actually happens, and they use it as an opportunity to both honour the different bands while educatating the sailors (I hadn't really heard about the Athabaskan tribes growing up in S. Ontario around the Six Nations, so it was interesting to learn about them).

Also, great chance to get some actually warlike crests for warships; always liked the tribal crests.

 

[Gorgo]

That definitely has my vote.  Would be nice for the name Haida to be recycled along with the others.

 

[Spencer100]

I really can not see in todays world a Tribal V.3.  Even with total buy in from the First Nations.  There will some SWJ or University prof. that will complain.  All for this government to not agree is a complaint from some of the Toronto or Montreal set.  I for the life of me can't see it happening.  Using those names some have history in them WW2 and the cold war too. First strike.  Second strike is the connection of First Nations and war or weapons of war.  This is not a concept that will sit well with these people. 

The third is it is what I want so you will never get it.. :Tin-Foil-Hat: rly: :rofl:

 

[Underway]

I really can not see in todays world a Tribal V.3.  Even with total buy in from the First Nations.  There will some SWJ or University prof. that will complain.  All for this government to not agree is a complaint from some of the Toronto or Montreal set.  I for the life of me can't see it happening.  Using those names some have history in them WW2 and the cold war too. First strike.  Second strike is the connection of First Nations and war or weapons of war.  This is not a concept that will sit well with these people. 

The third is it is what I want so you will never get it.. :Tin-Foil-Hat: rly: :rofl:

Many of the groups that had names were historically warrior peoples and took pride in warships being named after them.

What needs to change is many of the ship's crests, which had questionable/stereotyped depictions of first nations peoples running from skin colour (red) to headdress/garb.  Getting a first nation artist from each of the namesake bands/tribes/groups to redo or refresh some the crests would be an amazing start.  Instead of a ships sponsor being an individual perhaps a ships "sponsor" as an organization that represents the various bands of the peoples being named.  We already have sponsor cities, it's not a big step.

And of course asking permission/blessing for the ship to be named is a good step as well.
Done properly these sorts of activities can be healing, bridge gaps and lead to educational opportunities.

 

[Spencer100]

Many of the groups that had names were historically warrior peoples and took pride in warships being named after them.

What needs to change is many of the ship's crests, which had questionable/stereotyped depictions of first nations peoples running from skin colour (red) to headdress/garb.  Getting a first nation artist from each of the namesake bands/tribes/groups to redo or refresh some the crests would be an amazing start.  Instead of a ships sponsor being an individual perhaps a ships "sponsor" as an organization that represents the various bands of the peoples being named.  We already have sponsor cities, it's not a big step.

And of course asking permission/blessing for the ship to be named is a good step as well.
Done properly these sorts of activities can be healing, bridge gaps and lead to educational opportunities.

I agree with this 100 percent with this.  I think most First Nations would love to have the new ships named after them. I think it would be great. But in the end it is not about the FN its about the "feelz" and perception of racism. Take some sport teams.  A great example is FSU and the Seminoles.  Every year there are complaints and papers and petitions.  Even thought the Seminole tribe has said they love the name and support the team 1000 percent. There more examples that just comes to mind as I see it when I visit the parents in FL.  I don't think the current government would at all stand up if there was any complaints. (Sorry I just don't but love to proven wrong)  If you notice most of the calls of racism and culture appropriation are coming from different areas. 
 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Many of the groups that had names were historically warrior peoples and took pride in warships being named after them.

What needs to change is many of the ship's crests, which had questionable/stereotyped depictions of first nations peoples running from skin colour (red) to headdress/garb.  Getting a first nation artist from each of the namesake bands/tribes/groups to redo or refresh some the crests would be an amazing start.  Instead of a ships sponsor being an individual perhaps a ships "sponsor" as an organization that represents the various bands of the peoples being named.  We already have sponsor cities, it's not a big step.

And of course asking permission/blessing for the ship to be named is a good step as well.
Done properly these sorts of activities can be healing, bridge gaps and lead to educational opportunities.

Yeah, that was part of what I had in mind; if it was an existing ship name, then the tribe can come up with a crest and slogan. There are a lot of amazing active FN artists that are still doing traditional style art as well as modern updates. We may end up with the equivalent to Boaty McBoatyface in Cree or Inuk I guess but it would probably be so subtle as to be kind of hilarious.

 

[FJAG]

Yeah, that was part of what I had in mind; if it was an existing ship name, then the tribe can come up with a crest and slogan. There are a lot of amazing active FN artists that are still doing traditional style art as well as modern updates. We may end up with the equivalent to Boaty McBoatyface in Cree or Inuk I guess but it would probably be so subtle as to be kind of hilarious.

Kent Monkman is an amazing FN artist, however, I seriously doubt the present government regime would have anything to do with him.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/kent-monkman-backlash-trudeau-painting-1.5577452

;D

 

[ringo]

Province class CSC would hopefully ensure a minimum of 10 to be completed, rather doubt we'll see 15.
I seem to remember some talk of 24 Halifax class then 18 and settled with 12.

 

[suffolkowner]

I believe it was VCDS Norman some years ago that stated that the program was headed towards only 9 ships. As it stands has the government not commited to and budgeted to for the 15 ships? Dropping to lower numbers of the CSC, would it not nessecitate a much different force structure (ideally) with more intermediate ships similar to what the UK is doing with the type 31?

 

[YZT580]

The demise of several ships could be an unexpected victim of the U.S. election.  Without Trump harassing OW about the 2% the liberals might find it easier to chop the defense budget to spend money on windmills so as to have a target to tilt at.

 

[FSTO]

Many of the groups that had names were historically warrior peoples and took pride in warships being named after them.

What needs to change is many of the ship's crests, which had questionable/stereotyped depictions of first nations peoples running from skin colour (red) to headdress/garb.  Getting a first nation artist from each of the namesake bands/tribes/groups to redo or refresh some the crests would be an amazing start.  Instead of a ships sponsor being an individual perhaps a ships "sponsor" as an organization that represents the various bands of the peoples being named.  We already have sponsor cities, it's not a big step.

And of course asking permission/blessing for the ship to be named is a good step as well.
Done properly these sorts of activities can be healing, bridge gaps and lead to educational opportunities.

This is exactly what I proposed in my email. As I said above, the cricket sounds are hopefully a good sign.

 

[MilEME09]

Province class CSC would hopefully ensure a minimum of 10 to be completed, rather doubt we'll see 15.
I seem to remember some talk of 24 Halifax class then 18 and settled with 12.

Politics and bad timing killed the 3rd flight of Halifax's. First it was canceled to pay for the navy getting nuclear subs. Then an election happened and the navy got neither sadly.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The 2nd flight of the CPF was supposed to be a full on AAW variant with a lengthened hull and a 32 cell Mk41 VLS, up to 6 units in the class. Somewhere back in these threads I posted the design images.

It was unofficially referred to by some as the Montreal Class and by others as Provincial class. In any case it died an unseemly death at the hands of accountants and defence cutbacks and the second batch was the same as batch 1.  Batch 3 stood no real prospect of making it to a vote.

It would appear that the CSC T26 will greatly surpass that design in both sensors, armament and breadth of capability.

 

[MarkOttawa]

The 2nd flight of the CPF was supposed to be a full on AAW variant with a lengthened hull and a 32 cell Mk41 VLS, up to 6 units in the class. Somewhere back in these threads I posted the design images.

It was unofficially referred to by some as the Montreal Class and by others as Provincial class. In any case it died an unseemly death at the hands of accountants and defence cutbacks and the second batch was the same as batch 1.  Batch 3 stood no real prospect of making it to a vote.

It would appear that the CSC T26 will greatly surpass that design in both sensors, armament and breadth of capability.

As the post went to press.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Underway]

Press release from Lockheed

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/royal-canadian-navy-to-be-protected-with-lockheed-martin-s-advanced-and-versatile-spy-7-radar-under-newly-signed-contract-805682582.html

 

[Cloud Cover]

As the post went to press.

Mark
Ottawa

Yes, that’s the standard disclaimer for all Canadian procurement visions and plans.