Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Journeyman]

[/pedant]

Addressing a sailor, I was simplifying. 

 

[Good2Golf]

You should have greater respect for Her Majesty's Canadian Senior Service... :nod: ...you are likely now on their watch list.   

Yours, aye!
G2G

 

[Journeyman]

You should have greater respect for Her Majesty's Canadian Senior Service...  :nod:  ...you are likely now on their watch list.   

I'm not too worried about being on their watch list; I hear they're kind of busy at the top end of the food chain, dusting off succession lists and all....

About all I know of the Navy is, when some officer walks in the room and someone shouts "rounds," no one is actually buying drinks.  :'(


(Once the grizzled PO shooed the ASlt away and determined that we weren't sailors [just in town for the Dive course], he kept the officer away for the rest of time.  ;D )

/tangent

 

[jollyjacktar]

About all I know of the Navy is, when some officer walks in the room and someone shouts "rounds," no one is actually buying drinks.  :'(

Sigh, always promising and never delivering... :nod:

 

[MikeKiloPapa]

Will CSCs get Raytheon SM-6,?
Mark
Ottawa

The question is if there is any choice?.....rumor has it that Raytheon has already issued a "last buy" notice on SM-2 missiles....ie they are ending production. Leaving only ESSM block 2,  SM-6 and SM-3 in their portfolio. 

As to the veracity of the rumor...i have no idea*, but it would make sense .....at ~$5 million a piece, the SM-6 is going to be a hard sell to anybody but the USN, at least as long as there are cheaper alternatives on the market.

* I heard it from a defence industry insider , someone who works very closely with LM and Ratheon on BMD systems.

 

[MarkOttawa]

MikeKiloPapa: Also question of how overtly, if at all, this gov't is willing to get a missile defence capabillty,

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Lumber]

MikeKiloPapa: Also question of how overtly, if at all, this gov't is willing to get a missile defence capabillty,

Mark
Ottawa

So, what? We're going to be as heavily armed as the USCG?

 

[Underway]

From the Cronicle Herald.  Ken Hansen was quoted saying the following:

He said it has long been known that the navy sees the Type 26 frigate that BAE Systems designed for the United Kingdom as the best pre-existing ship design to replace its Halifax-class frigates...

Wait... What??

Anyone else have eyes on this one before now?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I noticed that in the article also.  That leaves me wondering too.

My understanding of the whole "combatant" part of the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS) was that we had a list of specifications and requirements and that, once the lead yard was selected, a ship designer was going to be selected, then a systems integrator, and those last two would come up with a design that would fulfill all the requirements. There was no indication that any of these new combatants would be a pre-existing design at all.

Then the new Trudeau government took over, a little more than a year ago, and for the first time in the whole CSC program, the idea of utilizing a pre-existing - proven because built - foreign design was adopted, supposedly to save time and make costs easier to evaluate.

I have never heard at any point that the RCN had a favourite, and even less that that favourite would be the type 26 design, a then non-existent ship and non finalized design which has only been completed very recently.

I do know that, shortly before the Harper government was to come out with the call for tenders for the selection of the shipyards for the NSS, the British RN was also embarking on the development of its next frigates with BAE and that they approached Canada to see if it could be a joint program. The Harper government declined once they found out that the British government wished, as part of that joint program, to ensure that all the ships would be built at BAE in the UK. However, at that point in time, the British frigates at issue were still the type 24 (GP) / type 25 (ASW) combination - not the further development of the idea resulting in the Global Frigate - type 26 program now in its infancy in the UK.

 

[Half Full]

From the Cronicle Herald.  Ken Hansen was quoted saying the following:

Wait... What??

Anyone else have eyes on this one before now?

Take anything quoted or said by Ken Hansen with a grain of salt.  His commentary on anything naval related is many years passed its prime. The Type 26 is not a ship the Navy has been pushing for.  To be honest the RCN doesn't really care what ship it gets as long as it meets the SOR.

 

[jollyjacktar]

However, my boss, who is a Naval Constructor and has experience in PMO projects did say that the Type 26 makes sense as the others in the running are 15-20 year old designs.  The Type 26 is new, current and cutting edge so to speak.  A newer design is better than an older one and therefore it shouldn't be counted out as less desirable.

I should have added, that in dealing with folks that are on the CSC PMO, they are tight lipped on the subject of which platform they like.  I'm surprised at the thought of anyone outside of the project having any knowledge on what they're thinking.

 

[Half Full]

I'm surprised at the thought of anyone outside of the project having any knowledge on what they're thinking.

Well, the Project is not the RCN...they progress the project on behalf of the RCN...but actually work for ADM(Mat), correct?  The RCN has never professed to prefer one design over the other.  If it came across that the RCN doesn't want the Type 26 that's not what I meant to say.  The RCN stands by their SOR and if whatever ship is ultimately selected meets the SOR...they will be content.

 

[Underway]

I have never heard at any point that the RCN had a favourite, and even less that that favourite would be the type 26 design, a then non-existent ship and non finalized design which has only been completed very recently.

Me neither, but it's not like I'm walking the halls of power...

Well, the Project is not the RCN...they progress the project on behalf of the RCN...but actually work for ADM(Mat), correct?  The RCN has never professed to prefer one design over the other.  If it came across that the RCN doesn't want the Type 26 that's not what I meant to say.  The RCN stands by their SOR and if whatever ship is ultimately selected meets the SOR...they will be content.

I believe the same.  It seems that the RCN really just wants the ships to do the job at this point.  And they are willing to cast the net wide to get it (and learned some stuff from the RCAF fighter replacement program).

I can see the attraction of the Global Combat Ship.  It's starting its build this summer, it's the right tonnage.  It's got that amazing "flex" space in the middle.  Reliable engineering configuration.  Military build standards.  Large enough flight deck to land a Chinook on.  Large hangar space (Merlins sized so can fit a Cyclone).  The 127mm gun space.  Designed for 12 self defence and 24 strike sized VLS canisters...  It's very nice on paper... 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well, the Project is not the RCN...they progress the project on behalf of the RCN...but actually work for ADM(Mat), correct?  The RCN has never professed to prefer one design over the other.  If it came across that the RCN doesn't want the Type 26 that's not what I meant to say.  The RCN stands by their SOR and if whatever ship is ultimately selected meets the SOR...they will be content.

I may be wrong, but I believe they are RCN, not ADM(Mat).  Just as DNR are RCN and not ADM(Mat).  The PMO are not within our lines but over in Ottawa.  We do provide them with information and assistance as required as we do for the fleet.

 

[dapaterson]

DNR takes projects through Identification and Options Analysis phases.  Once the project enters Definition phase, DGMEPM in ADM(Mat) takes over, and takes the proejct through Definition and Implementation, then does the closeout.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Correct.  They identify the need and requirement to satisfy the need.  We act upon that to make it happen.

 

[MikeKiloPapa]

.  The Type 26 is new, current and cutting edge so to speak.

Ahh....but if you wait another 15-20 years to pick  a CSC design ,there will be even newer and cutting edgier warships to choose from  ....clever clever ;D

as the others in the running are 15-20 year old designs

Sorry, but that is simply not true ....The Italian and French FREMMs were launched in 2011/2010, so were the Iver Huitfeldts and TKMS is likely offering a version of their F125 , a brand new design not even commissioned yet (launched in 2013) .
Only Navantias bid, a Hobart class AWD based design. itself derived from the F100 class(Alvaro de Bazan )can reasonably be said to be somewhat outdated..(Dont know about the US submitted designs ? )

And lets not forget that the T26 is just the latest iteration of a line of warship design proposals, dating back to the beginning of the UKs Future Surface Combatant program in 1998. Even the current design of the "global combat ship" will be more than a decade old by the time the first hull hits the water.

Dont get me wrong, i want the best for the RCN and i can certainly understand the allure of the T26.....At 150x21 meters and 8000 tonnes it is the biggest and potentially most capable ship in the running.
But it is also by far the most expensive option and the one that carries the most risk.  Because it hasn't been built yet any design flaws revealed during construction is likely to translate into even more delays for the CSC program .
The question is how long you are willing to wait though, ....the "jam tomorrow" strategy has a history of not paying off. Maybe settling for the  90% solution will ensure that you actually get the full fleet of 15 warships on budget and on time.

 

[Karel Doorman]

Ahh....but if you wait another 15-20 years to pick  a CSC design ,there will be even newer and cutting edgier warships to choose from  ....clever clever ;D

Sorry, but that is simply not true ....The Italian and French FREMMs were launched in 2011/2010, so were the Iver Huitfeldts and TKMS is likely offering a version of their F125 , a brand new design not even commissioned yet (launched in 2013) .
Only Navantias bid, a Hobart class AWD based design. itself derived from the F100 class(Alvaro de Bazan )can reasonably be said to be somewhat outdated..(Dont know about the US submitted designs ? )

And lets not forget that the T26 is just the latest iteration of a line of warship design proposals, dating back to the beginning of the UKs Future Surface Combatant program in 1998. Even the current design of the "global combat ship" will be more than a decade old by the time the first hull hits the water.

Dont get me wrong, i want the best for the RCN and i can certainly understand the allure of the T26.....At 150x21 meters and 8000 tonnes it is the biggest and potentially most capable ship in the running.
But it is also by far the most expensive option and the one that carries the most risk.  Because it hasn't been built yet any design flaws revealed during construction is likely to translate into even more delays for the CSC program .
The question is how long you are willing to wait though, ....the "jam tomorrow" strategy has a history of not paying off. Maybe settling for the  90% solution will ensure that you actually get the full fleet of 15 warships on budget and on time.

True about the Type-26 but it's mainly an ASW ship,yet to be built(as said in the design phase)

If you're going that route the RCN might aswell consider the Dutch option,the vMFF(or replacement for the M-class)also mainly an ASW ship;(will be in the 4500-5500 tonns region,from what we know now)

Got a rendering of it:to give you all an idea(the plan is to buy 2 for the KM and 2 for the Belgian Navy,but it might be more for the KM,since there's a shortage on this sort of ships within NATO,we'll see)




I think again it looks beautiful,but hey i'm biased(Dutch)

 

[jollyjacktar]

Ahh....but if you wait another 15-20 years to pick  a CSC design ,there will be even newer and cutting edgier warships to choose from  ....clever clever ;D

Sorry, but that is simply not true ....The Italian and French FREMMs were launched in 2011/2010, so were the Iver Huitfeldts and TKMS is likely offering a version of their F125 , a brand new design not even commissioned yet (launched in 2013) .
Only Navantias bid, a Hobart class AWD based design. itself derived from the F100 class(Alvaro de Bazan )can reasonably be said to be somewhat outdated..(Dont know about the US submitted designs ? )

And lets not forget that the T26 is just the latest iteration of a line of warship design proposals, dating back to the beginning of the UKs Future Surface Combatant program in 1998. Even the current design of the "global combat ship" will be more than a decade old by the time the first hull hits the water.

Dont get me wrong, i want the best for the RCN and i can certainly understand the allure of the T26.....At 150x21 meters and 8000 tonnes it is the biggest and potentially most capable ship in the running.
But it is also by far the most expensive option and the one that carries the most risk.  Because it hasn't been built yet any design flaws revealed during construction is likely to translate into even more delays for the CSC program .
The question is how long you are willing to wait though, ....the "jam tomorrow" strategy has a history of not paying off. Maybe settling for the  90% solution will ensure that you actually get the full fleet of 15 warships on budget and on time.

By they time they finalize a design cut steel on the CSC, a ship like the FREMM will be a 15+ year old design.  They were given the go ahead in 2005 for that ship and I am sure there was something on the boards before then.  It is at this juncture a 12 year old design at the very least.

 

[Karel Doorman]

By they time they finalize a design cut steel on the CSC, a ship like the FREMM will be a 15+ year old design.  They were given the go ahead in 2005 for that ship and I am sure there was something on the boards before then.  It is at this juncture a 12 year old design at the very least.

Yep that's the whole problem,it's just keeps going and going and....................(almost like overe here.)

Therefore  maybe the newest designs will be more interesting(Type-26/vMFF and whatever comes)

But as said before i think the new Dutch design will have APAR2 and that could be interesting for Canada.