Canadians oppose tough, new role for the military, poll shows

[Kirkhill]

Does anyone have any good references on the rise of the pacifist movement in Canada? 

There are a host of cultural reasons why Quebecers don't tend to support an army or military involvement overseas.  That is a separate issue.

I'm thinking of those in TROC that are anti-militarist. 

Cheers.

 

[mdh]

If we can reclaim fighting for a cause, in defence of those that can't, as a "traditional" Canadian value then perhaps we can go someways to bridging the gap.

I don't know how much support we are likely to get from government etc on this but maybe it could start with Remembrance Day.

That day has come to be seen by many as an opportunity to remember the futility of war and the poor misguided fools who died because of blood thirsty, idiotic warmongers.   Lest We Forget has melded with Never Again.   There is little sense left of the torch being thrown from failing hands and breaking faith.

The day could perhaps be recast, with perhaps the help of the Legion if none else, as a day not to remember just the fact that people died, but the fact that those that died gave their lives fighting to defend others and many others fought for the same reason and did not die.

Remembrance day used to be a day to remember sacrifice and honour not only those that died but also those that offered themselves up as a sacrifice and thankfully returned safe.   Now the message seems, by and large, to be the war is a waste, dying is a waste, fighting is a waste.

Those aren't the sentiments of those that went overseas and demanded that "if ye break faith, we shall not sleep".

By recasting the message, by repossessing the word "traditional" then fighting in defence of those that cannot becomes not a divergence onto a new path as a result of Anglo-American Military-Industrial Hegemonists (god these communists write some great script don't they?) but it is a return to "traditional" Canadian values and the values of those honoured on Nov. 11.

Sacrifice, not waste.

Kirkhill,

Care to join me in cultural counter-revolution?   >   Because that's really what's at issue here. Reviving the real meaning of Remembrance Day is like reviving the real meaning of Christmas - you need people to actually believe in it. You and I know what "failing hands" means - and more importantly we react to it emotionally because it has real meaning in the military. But Canada's official state ideology doesn't recognize the utility of war to maintain and protect our "values" - (however Ottawa has decided to define those this week.)

Remembrance Day - as you quite rightly noted - has become less a rumination on sacrifice than a paean to pacificism - and considering how Canada's military history is taught in the public education system - when it's taught at all - the pacifist imperative is dominant when teaching is based on the assumption that war is "futile".

My first introduction to the First World War was through the film Oh, What a Lovely War! in high school and I suspect that not much has changed in the 30 years since. I would argue that John McCrae (despite the Heritage Canada Minute) has about as much cultural resonance with today's younger generation as Peter the Hermit or Gustavus Adolphus. Maybe even less.

Ever since 1968, it's been the year zero as far the Liberal Party (and occassionally the old PC Party) and its intellectual allies are concerned - re-writing the country's history and re-casting its cultural symbolism to   justify the moral imperatives of multi-culturalism and the welfare state - and of course to ease - if not erase - the historical tensions with Quebec whose populace opposed Canadian involvement in both world wars and who regarded the country's largely anglo-dominated military institutions as an instrument of imperialism.

In short, I don't know how we can revive the original meaning of Remembrance Day or whether this is a practical proposition - my guess is that it's not - we simply have to work within the new cultural boundaries that have been created in the last 30 years and do the best we can by recognizing that Canada's martial traditions survive within a select sub-culture of the population - most often represented on this forum.

Cheers, mdh

 

[Kirkhill]

Care to join me in cultural counter-revolution?

I think I have been involved in one since High School mdh.  That is when I got my first slap from a good looking young lady in my English class for being an Imperialist (actually it was a punch and I was being a smartarse - as a result of lost opportunity I toned down my position in future ;D)

You are dead right unfortunately. It has been 30, 40 years in the making.  Probably take a like number of years to move the pendulum back.  But perhaps we can help it swing a little - and actually, my sense of the kids in high school now - I have two kids there myself - is that at least some of them are open to taking on board a different view.  Peculiarly enough - I find more disciplined, motivated individuals amongst  my daughter's female classmates than amongst my son's male classmates.  Possible outcome of changing emphasis in the education system?

Any how, If you're up for it I'm more than willing to bring on the counter-revolution. 

In the immortal and unforgettable words of one of my fellow country men from Edinburgh "Up agin the wall with you lot, come the day"  ;D.  At least he didn't resort to fisticuffs like the Canadian lass.

Cheers.

 

[daniel h.]

Those who talk about "Peacekeeping" not being traditional are right. Traditionally, the Canadian military was a bunch of warriors, not a bunch of social workers who went across the world begging people to "be nice". They'll just start fighting again anyway when we leave.

This being said, the Afghanistan war will not make us safer--it might do the opposite, so Carolyn Parrish is PARTIALLY accurate, we just did it because we are allied closely to the United States--no crime there.

NEVER let the government convince you we can't afford a big military and health care. We had a 2X higher debt-to-GDP ratio after WW II, but we didn't let usury ensalve us. We created 50% of our money at nearly interest free rates using the Bank of Canada. This practice ended in 1974 when Canadian economist Milton Friedman advocated monetarism, and all G-8 countries followed suit. Of our 540 billion dollar long- term debt, only about 38 billion is due to spending--the rest interest on previous spending. Usury was used to neuter nationa states--people have to wake up about this.

"Usury will wreck the nation" - Mackenzie King.

Read: www.comer.org  - This site explains what we could do to afford everything we need....our government has literally been weakening us purposely for over 30 years to reduce nationalism....

Basically, our government took control of our eocnomy and MONEY creation to afford W.W. II, then concluded government intervention was "only a hop, skip and a jump away from socialism", (which is not necessarily true) so they lost their imagination and let the market take over again. In 1974 the decisions made put us permanently in debt, out of which we can never emerge due to the fact our interest on 540 billion at arounf 3% interest is literally 24 billion a year, so our surplus of 9 billion, even after huge social and infrastructure cuts will never get us out of debt--our debt will only grow.

 

[daniel h.]

The question is therefore is this poll telling us some truths that we in the military don't want to hear? The results shouldn't be surprising.   After 30 years of relentless Liberal propaganda propagated through almost every cultural and educational institution in the country, the notion of Canada as the nice and helpful peacekeeper has achieved iconic status - complete with the requisite Ottawa monument.  

Frankly I would have been astounded if Canadian public opinion had shifted to the point where Canadians wanted their army to conduct aggressive offensive operations against insurgents.

But it's not going to advance our cause very far if we think that confronting the public with the ugly reality of war is going to be the answer.  

As ex-grunt noted there is always the danger of a backlash which our political class is not going to stand up to and suddenly exercise "leadership" by defying public opinion and insisting that we take the war to the terrorists in Afghanistan - (especially given Quebec's traditional cultural and historical suspicions of the Forces and its electoral importance - nay, obsession - to the Paul Martin Liberals in the wake of the Gomery Inquiry.)

A steady and measured campaign to raise awareness and educate the public is the best approach - (again as ex-grunt described above).   We have already made progress on this front and I would argue that there has been considerable success in working with the media to highlight the CF's mission in Afghanistan. We need to more of it.

Cheers, mdh

Liberals of all political stripes are insane...You are right they do brainwash people. They are now telling our young people that Canada has always been multicultural, multiethnic   and that in W.W. II we fought for "freedom".

I highly doubt our soldiers woudl have volunteered to fight for multiculturalism and the strengthening of Stalinist communism had they known that W.W II essentially destroyed the imperial ambitions of the two nations that most influenced Canada (England and France) and wrecked Germany to essentially benefit the swindle called communism in Eastern Europe.

 

[daniel h.]

Just my own opinion but I think that the current "Canadian Identity" needs a serious wake-up call.

We generally talk a good game about how kind and caring we are, and then demand more and more money for our own social programs while robbing our military the ability to intervene around the world where innocent people are getting raped and killed.

Bottom Line:   As a whole, I think we're pretty damned selfish and think someone needs to make it clear in a public statement that the opportunity cost of our self-indulgence is that bullies and warlords rule far more of the planet's surface than there should be, imposing their will on the unfortunate residents.   That doesn't mean we can fix all the world's problems, but it means we look so hard at how everything affects "me" (damnit I had to wait an hour for my doctors appointment today!), that we've lost the bigger picture context.   In short, the view is "Let's intervene in Darfur as long as we don't have to spend money on strategic lift, more troops and possibly even [gasp] tanks.....and we better not shoot anyone while they're there.   Perhaps we can bring daisies...."




Matthew.     ???

Why don't we forget about the world's problems and worry about our own? Canada's business class and political class are a big part of our lack of leadership and image.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

It's a stupid poll. We know they're designed to provide the answer they want. What about the Toronto Post one awhile back, that proved the opposite. 74% wanted us to increase and maintain our warfighting role and only 23% wanted us as peacekeepers. 3% said we didn't need an army. At least the question was phrased somewhat non-partisan "What role do you think the CF should concentrate on?" or someting to that effect.

 

[daniel h.]

Kirkhill,

Care to join me in cultural counter-revolution?   >   Because that's really what's at issue here. Reviving the real meaning of Remembrance Day is like reviving the real meaning of Christmas - you need people to actually believe in it. You and I know what "failing hands" means - and more importantly we react to it emotionally because it has real meaning in the military. But Canada's official state ideology doesn't recognize the utility of war to maintain and protect our "values" - (however Ottawa has decided to define those this week.)

Remembrance Day - as you quite rightly noted - has become less a rumination on sacrifice than a paean to pacificism - and considering how Canada's military history is taught in the public education system - when it's taught at all - the pacifist imperative is dominant when teaching is based on the assumption that war is "futile".

My first introduction to the First World War was through the film Oh, What a Lovely War! in high school and I suspect that not much has changed in the 30 years since. I would argue that John McCrae (despite the Heritage Canada Minute) has about as much cultural resonance with today's younger generation as Peter the Hermit or Gustavus Adolphus. Maybe even less.

Ever since 1968, it's been the year zero as far the Liberal Party (and occassionally the old PC Party) and its intellectual allies are concerned - re-writing the country's history and re-casting its cultural symbolism to   justify the moral imperatives of multi-culturalism and the welfare state - and of course to ease - if not erase - the historical tensions with Quebec whose populace opposed Canadian involvement in both world wars and who regarded the country's largely anglo-dominated military institutions as an instrument of imperialism.

In short, I don't know how we can revive the original meaning of Remembrance Day or whether this is a practical proposition - my guess is that it's not - we simply have to work within the new cultural boundaries that have been created in the last 30 years and do the best we can by recognizing that Canada's martial traditions survive within a select sub-culture of the population - most often represented on this forum.

Cheers, mdh

While I don't oppose the welfare state were it to benefit people who really need help, I think the egalitarianism of multiculturalism and refugees (2 billion a year), 11 billion a year for natives (who actually weren't here first we now know) and other utopian socailsm will face a serious backlash.

Yes liberalism has destroyed the meaning of Christmas--and the birth rate that went with a Christian society.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Why don't we forget about the world's problems and worry about our own? Canada's business class and political class are a big part of our lack of leadership and image.

Because I don't believe our moral social responsibility stops at our borders....

And regarding your attack of the business class, the CCCE has been one of the few organizations in this country that has spoken out for Canada's military and a more activist role in world affairs. 

Bottom Line:  If you want to blame the political class, knock yourself out.  You may want to throw in our left-leaning media, NGO's, student groups and that collection of asshats at the Polaris Institute (I'd love to know who funds those wankers as they are a bad joke).

....and finally, a population that just loves to get on its high horse and discuss "how much better we are than Americans."



Matthew.   

 

[Infanteer]

:boring:

This again?