I'm not muslim or anything.. I'm sikh.. but im 100 % devoted to Canada and Canada's known thru out the world as the most multicultural country... then why this? Don't look at colour.. look at dedication, devotion, and belief you have for and towards the country.
Canadians seen as Americans in Afghanistan
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"Let's face it, the soviets tried the brute strength approach
that didn't work too well (last time I checked)"
- They came pretty close. The initial Soviet assessment was for a requirement of 33 1/2 Divisions, but the road network could only support five or so, so they rolled the dice and went with five. But, also we have to take into account that a LOT of the Afghans were actually on the Russian side. Still, if it wasn't for the Stingers...
Tom
that didn't work too well (last time I checked)"
- They came pretty close. The initial Soviet assessment was for a requirement of 33 1/2 Divisions, but the road network could only support five or so, so they rolled the dice and went with five. But, also we have to take into account that a LOT of the Afghans were actually on the Russian side. Still, if it wasn't for the Stingers...
Tom
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Manu said:
While I don't want to open the multicultural debate here (other threads cover it well) Canada is not a multicultural country, only 14% of our population is a vis-min, and the vast majority of them live in cities. An even smaller proportion of the military is visible minorities, so for both the literal and figurative senses, Canada is a western "white" army in every sense of the word.
It is just a convenient method of categorisation, not a slag against the non-white people who serve in the CF.
ArmyRick
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Go said "Canada is not a multicultural country, only 14% of our population is a vis-min"
We love to sell ourselves on fairy tales like we are the most multicultured nation in the world but good point about 14% vis min
I'll bet the USA is far higher percentage (look at the liberal's attitude towards the US)
The definition of multi-cultured has probably changed from 40 years ago. At one time Irish, Italian, Germans, etc all living in one city was considered mixed ethnicities.
Just some food for thought...
We love to sell ourselves on fairy tales like we are the most multicultured nation in the world but good point about 14% vis min
I'll bet the USA is far higher percentage (look at the liberal's attitude towards the US)
The definition of multi-cultured has probably changed from 40 years ago. At one time Irish, Italian, Germans, etc all living in one city was considered mixed ethnicities.
Just some food for thought...
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I have read thru 4 pages of the dribble and the question that returns to my mind is:
Why are you surprised by this?
I talked about this last Mar/Apr timeframe. All three armies are (mostly) white, English speaking soldiers who wear tan uniforms. The majority are US army. They have also been there longer. Everything in Kabul was being set up by the US before ISAF showed up. It is by default that the average Afghan figures we are all Americans.
Why are you surprised by this?
I talked about this last Mar/Apr timeframe. All three armies are (mostly) white, English speaking soldiers who wear tan uniforms. The majority are US army. They have also been there longer. Everything in Kabul was being set up by the US before ISAF showed up. It is by default that the average Afghan figures we are all Americans.
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medic...
Your right - to the Afghans, the US were the ones who supported the Northern Alliance and invaded/liberated their country.
Given that US troops have composed the largest part of the occupying/liberation forces, to the average illiterate, run of the mill Afghan, we're all Americans or their minions.
If one of em should have a world atlas, they'll find Canada right there.... in North AMERICA and composing +/- 50% of the continent.... ergo - we're all american. And with respect to our uniforms: just a slightly different suit - and the US has many variations too.
Your right - to the Afghans, the US were the ones who supported the Northern Alliance and invaded/liberated their country.
Given that US troops have composed the largest part of the occupying/liberation forces, to the average illiterate, run of the mill Afghan, we're all Americans or their minions.
If one of em should have a world atlas, they'll find Canada right there.... in North AMERICA and composing +/- 50% of the continent.... ergo - we're all american. And with respect to our uniforms: just a slightly different suit - and the US has many variations too.
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It's funny how we are getting kind of strung out on this. We all know were western armies etc etc. Has anyone ever thought through the eyes of an Insurgent? I mean as in when you hear the Americans, British, and Canadian forces speak, they are all speaking english. This is another reason why they don't care to make sure who they are shooting at. We all speak the language there for we must be the same. I am not saying we are however, its like that age old thing where the white guy will say all the Asian people look the same too him.
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Kilo_302 said:
Kilo: Forgive me for chiming in very late but your assessment of what happened in Afghanistan is very much off the mark. The US wanted, more than anything, for NATO nations to contribute more troops and shoulder more of the burden, but discovered that there was a terrible case of "cold feet" amongst Europeans for getting out into the countryside until the situation was secure: i.e. somebody took on the bad guys. The NATO nations weren't too keen on helping with this part, either. The idea that they would have willingly rushed off into the provinces to engage in hunter-killer operations is just laughable and would have been very difficult to sell in the home countries, particularly given the anti-Americanism that was so prevalent as a result of Iraq. So, guess who shouldered the combined burdens of fighting the baddies AND rebuilding Afghanistan? Not NATO. Next guess...?
I spent six months in a US operational level HQ in Afghanistan watching closely (and on occasion getting involved) as the US worked on both these huge tasks and continued to try to get NATO to take on a broader mandate. The transition of US Regional Command South to NATO that is taking place as we speak (in which Canada is involved) is a product of this US effort to get more out of NATO.
NATO, as a result, stayed happily in Kabul, and ran a few PRTs in the northern provinces, where things were far more stable and quiet thanks to the cooperativeness of Gen Dostum, (late of the Northern Alliance). The rest of the work in the other 75% of the country was done by the US, with very little attention or understanding by western non-US media, who were quick to report the accidental killing of civilians, but rather less quick to discuss US or Afghan success.
Unless you can come up with some more convincing evidence, that wasn't a very good assessment.
Cheers
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ArmyRick said:
Hold on a second...don't confuse "multi-cultural" with "visible minorities". The vismins are just a part of being multicultural. The groups you named are all parts of it, as are Russians, Poles, white Bosnian Muslims, Italians, Portuguese, etc. It doesn't really consider what colour your skin is: it means what cultural practices you follow. In fact, you can easily argue that an increasing percentage of young vismin Canadians (much to the alarm of their elders...) are actually drifting away from their cultures. If everyone just lives a blahh grey "McCulture", then we really don't have multiculturalism no matter what colour Canadians are.
On the other hand, the 14% vismin figure is not necessarily a useful one either. IIRC, the black population of the US is about 12%. That seems, on the face of it, prettty small, right? Now, let's not pretend for one second that that 12% of US population has not had a HUGE effect on US life, history and culture. It isn't how many, but how influential, that matters IMHO.
IMHO the most significant groupings of "multi-cultural" Canadians, whether by virtue of being vismins or just by virtue of their heritage, are in our cities. It just so happens that about 80% of Canadians (IIRC) live in cities. So, the places where most of us live are in fact also the most "multicultural", which affects the way we think about ourselves as a nation. It's what most Canadians see every day when they go to work or school.
Finally, I wouldn't be so sure that the US is actually all that much more "multi-cultural" than Canada(although from what I have seen and read the good old "Melting Pot" ideal is fast becoming a myth). I believe that Toronto, by virtue of the fact that more than 50% of its residents were not born in Canada, actually outpaced New York City. Now, whether this is automatically a good thing (or even an important thing...) is another story.
Anyway-face it: the WASP demographic is in decline in this country, as it is in the world in general. Canada is changing as we speak, so we better learn to deal with that in an intelligent way, or we won't be able to point smug little Canadian fingers at other countries and cluck self-importantly about what a tolerant place we are compared to "them". We have to work at it, and acknowledge the fact that the overwhelming majority of new Canadians just want to work hard, worship their God in their way, and have a good life. I know-I'm married to one.
Cheers
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I think there's a confusin here as to what exactly multiculturalism is and what having a multi-cultural nation means.
Multi-culturalism is more of a philosophy tah anything else. It's the ideal of integrating different cultures rather than assimilating them. having a large quantity of visible minorties does not neccesariy indicate that a country is multicultural: the ability for that country to allow all the different groups to live and work side by side, without conflict and with respect defines a multicultural state.
Multi-culturalism is more of a philosophy tah anything else. It's the ideal of integrating different cultures rather than assimilating them. having a large quantity of visible minorties does not neccesariy indicate that a country is multicultural: the ability for that country to allow all the different groups to live and work side by side, without conflict and with respect defines a multicultural state.
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What I'm saying is that the only reason we are able to smugly embrace the "multicultural" theory is that people who practice any other type of culture than the European ones (who I am deliberately lumping into a large group) are a tiny minority. Face it, after two generations here, alot of people have to think to come up with their ancestry, and they all act in roughly the same ways.
The cultural non-conformists are such a small minority that the effects of their respective cultures, both good and bad, are diluted in the population in which they reside. Where they choose to concentrate themselves into racially homogenous communities is when we notice. (Jamaican men shooting each other in Toronto and asian gangs in Vancouver and Edmonton)
Thus, our being multicultural is just allowing cultural non-conformists to exist - which we have, because they are so small in numbers. Or were. Now that the problems associated with some of the cultures we previously allowed to ghettoize themselves and become inward - looking are starting to surface (extreme violence, misogyny, polygamy etc.) Statements like "communities in crisis" are being made - when it is not a community that is the problem. It is one ethnic group that was never encouraged to live in the manner that made this country what it was; instead choosing to perpetuate the behaviours that made their home nations less desireable to live in in the first place.
This is what I mean when I say that Canada is not a multicultural nation. It is a unicultural nation, with a few pockets of cultural non-conformists, who were quaint and supported, when vastly outnumbered, but are now becoming microcosms of their nations of origin.
The cultural non-conformists are such a small minority that the effects of their respective cultures, both good and bad, are diluted in the population in which they reside. Where they choose to concentrate themselves into racially homogenous communities is when we notice. (Jamaican men shooting each other in Toronto and asian gangs in Vancouver and Edmonton)
Thus, our being multicultural is just allowing cultural non-conformists to exist - which we have, because they are so small in numbers. Or were. Now that the problems associated with some of the cultures we previously allowed to ghettoize themselves and become inward - looking are starting to surface (extreme violence, misogyny, polygamy etc.) Statements like "communities in crisis" are being made - when it is not a community that is the problem. It is one ethnic group that was never encouraged to live in the manner that made this country what it was; instead choosing to perpetuate the behaviours that made their home nations less desireable to live in in the first place.
This is what I mean when I say that Canada is not a multicultural nation. It is a unicultural nation, with a few pockets of cultural non-conformists, who were quaint and supported, when vastly outnumbered, but are now becoming microcosms of their nations of origin.
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Go I think you are way off on multi-culturalism.
Non-conformist culture is the culture that seperates people or nations from each other. With conformity comes the bland polluted corrupt culture of globalization; McDonalds, Wall-Mart etc. Conformist monoculture is like incest, may seem like a good idea but always results in problems.
As for your automatic jumping to negative problems of some communities is disturbing. Most Jamaicans in Canada have never picked up a gun and take jobs most wouldn't especially in the fruit harvests. Most Asians are law abiding citizens owning business and getting good jobs or creating good jobs. Your statements are the equivelant of saying all WASPS men are racist, anti-catholic wife beaters and clearly those are a minorty.
Culture, in what some call the post modern era, is induvidual and we pick and choose which cultural traits we want. That is what makes Canada a multi-cultural country. Pick up Richard Gwyn's 'Nationalism Without Walls' at the library sometime.
Non-conformist culture is the culture that seperates people or nations from each other. With conformity comes the bland polluted corrupt culture of globalization; McDonalds, Wall-Mart etc. Conformist monoculture is like incest, may seem like a good idea but always results in problems.
As for your automatic jumping to negative problems of some communities is disturbing. Most Jamaicans in Canada have never picked up a gun and take jobs most wouldn't especially in the fruit harvests. Most Asians are law abiding citizens owning business and getting good jobs or creating good jobs. Your statements are the equivelant of saying all WASPS men are racist, anti-catholic wife beaters and clearly those are a minorty.
Culture, in what some call the post modern era, is induvidual and we pick and choose which cultural traits we want. That is what makes Canada a multi-cultural country. Pick up Richard Gwyn's 'Nationalism Without Walls' at the library sometime.
Unfortunately Canadians will be seen as Americans in Afghanistan. We are there after the Americans struck and there's not really much we can do to curb that image except get out. Not saying that we should, but it's always dangerous to get involved with that countries' foreign affairs.
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