CANFORGEN on Pay and PIL

[dapaterson]

But with the same level of staffing used for normal FY releases to process the entire CF. Good call, NDHQ.

No.  Additional pers were brought in to deal with the increased workload.

 

[SupersonicMax]

What is it again?  Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution?

Where is the faith in our middle management?  Why do we need to swamp 1 office and make the process incredibly slow?

 

[stokerwes]

What is it again?  Centralized Control, Decentralized Execution?

Where is the faith in our middle management?  Why do we need to swamp 1 office and make the process incredibly slow?

That is my question as well. If there is no faith in unit middle management why have them?
I know I may be simplifying this but it appears to me as micro management on a grand scale. Unit management should have the skills and leadership to asses their "special" cases that maybe had to go to a "special" team. They should have been granted authority to authorize payment on any applications that were straight forward or within their skill set.

I don't think this situation is unique to the RMS world either. I see often where supervisors and managers are very limited in their authority to manage (do thier jobs). From my experience this leads to a level of dissatisfaction for these personnel as they have worked very hard to get these positions and aren't able to do what they should be allowed to do.

 

[dapaterson]

Units do not have specialist knowledge and training on the details of severance pay.  All RMS clerks do not have that knowledge; and even when we had both Fin and Admin clerks not all Fin clerks had that knowledge and those skills.  Just like all Crewmwen are not qualified on tanks.  And all Pilots are not qualified on helicopters. 

 

[vandoos283]

Here is the last update from 25 Nov 13, is there a new update?

The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 24,945 files or 55% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 21 March 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

THE TAX WAIVER FORM IS CONTAINED IN THE CFSP/REHABILITATION LEAVE ADMINISTRATIVE DIRECTIVE AND MUST BE APPLIED FOR A SPECIFIC YEAR. IF YOU DID NOT RECEIVE PIL PAYMENT BEFORE 31 DEC 2013, YOU WILL HAVE TO SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST TO CRA AND FORWARD THE NEW FORM TO THE PIL TEAM. IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT A NEW REQUEST, THE PROCESSING OF YOUR PIL REQUEST WILL BE DELAYED. YOU ARE REMINDED TO INCLUDE YOUR SERVICE NUMBER ON ALL DOCUMENTS. YOU CAN SEND YOUR NEW FORM DIRECTLY TO THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM ATPLUS)DMCA 4 PIL TEAM(AT SIGN)CMP DMCA(AT SIGN)OTTAWA-HULL


THE DMCA 4 PIL TEAM HAS RECEIVED OVER 45 THOUSAND FILES TO AUDIT. THE AUDIT HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND PAYMENT, AUTHORIZED FOR OVER 23 THOUSAND FILES. THE TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON FILES RECEIVED 18 MAR 13. DMCA EXPECTS COMPLETION OF THE PIL OF CFSP PROJECT BY JUN 2014


THE PIL TEAM PROVIDES A BI-MONTHLY SITREP LOCATED ON THEIR WEB SITE TO FIND OUT WHAT DATE THE PIL TEAM IS CURRENTLY WORKING ON AND HOW MANY FILES HAVE BEEN PROCESSED. PLEASE VISIT HTTP://CMP-CPM.FORCES.MIL.CA/DGMC/ADMIN/PIL-PTLI/INDEX-ENG.ASP


YOUR PATIENCE IS APRECIATED

 

[Navy_Pete]

It would be nice if they provided an INTERNET address. There are tons of people, retired, Reserve, etc that are entitled to know what's happening, with their accounts, but have no access to the DIN.

There also seems to be too many http://'s in that link.

The intranet side has an internet link, which was broken... :facepalm:

Anyway, found it here; http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/rehab-leave.page?

I did notice while reading through it, if the form isn't included, they will simply deduct all the taxes from the payment, and this form is specifically for those that want to put some or all of the money directly into RRSPs.

I'm assuming then that the delay would only apply to those that had filled in the form for the 2013 tax year, vice everyone.  But then I could be wrong, as that is the logical conclusion vice the DND way.

For more, see the PiL FAQ http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/pay-increase-faq.page?#Q50

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The intranet side has an internet link, which was broken... :facepalm:

Anyway, found it here; http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/rehab-leave.page?

I did notice while reading through it, if the form isn't included, they will simply deduct all the taxes from the payment, and this form is specifically for those that want to put some or all of the money directly into RRSPs.

I'm assuming then that the delay would only apply to those that had filled in the form for the 2013 tax year, vice everyone.  But then I could be wrong, as that is the logical conclusion vice the DND way.

For more, see the PiL FAQ http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-benefits/pay-increase-faq.page?#Q50

Cheers 

 

[SupersonicMax]

Units do not have specialist knowledge and training on the details of severance pay.  All RMS clerks do not have that knowledge; and even when we had both Fin and Admin clerks not all Fin clerks had that knowledge and those skills.  Just like all Crewmwen are not qualified on tanks.  And all Pilots are not qualified on helicopters.

Not a good analogy.  I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.

Why not train a few individual at each wing/base?  Knowing that this was coming from the Budget (9 months before we got the official word that we had to elect), it would have been easy to lead turn this by training the individuals and when times for PiL comes, we don't have a 2-year turn around time...  But I guess being proactive is not allowed...

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Not a good analogy.  I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.

You even sweat awesomeness, don't you....

 

[SupersonicMax]

I actually piss excellence in the morning

 

[Pusser]

I doubt it costs millions and takes years to train someone to audit Severance Pay.  I would compare to a pilot staff job.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.

Why not train a few individual at each wing/base?  Knowing that this was coming from the Budget (9 months before we got the official word that we had to elect), it would have been easy to lead turn this by training the individuals and when times for PiL comes, we don't have a 2-year turn around time...  But I guess being proactive is not allowed...

You just don't get it.  They're not auditing or calculating Severance Pay (or in this case Payment in Lieu - PIL).  That calculation is actually pretty simple (one week's pay at applicable rate X number of years of service).  What they're doing is confirming financial transactions over a member's entire career in order to ensure that the entire pay account is correct prior to final payout.  The system is trying to prevent a situation where they have to hunt someone down at a later date to either recover or return money from/to a former member.  The audit includes looking at pay, allowances, leave, any other thing to which one can attach a dollar sign.  Think this is simple?  Think again:

1) Misapplied pay incentives, incorrect effective dates, changes in regulations that were not properly applied can all affect this - and those are just the simple ones.

2) Being on a specialist pay scale adds to the mess, especially if you became an officer before we introduced pay protection and you continued to receive your former trade's incentives and increases

3)  At one time at least, there were over 100 different ways to enter the CF as an officer, all of which affected pay.  Officers' pay accounts were notorious for being regularly screwed up, especially in the early years.

4)  Remember that week's leave you took 10 years ago that seemingly never got recorded, so you got a few extra days that year?  Well the leave pass has been found and so your leave account is now in deficit - those days of pay have to be recovered.

Although a lot of these problems have been corrected over the years, anyone with any length of service will still be affected by some of these things and it all has to be checked.  We do it centrally to ensure consistency, because if you get it wrong, you can't just write it off.  The write-off regulations under the FAA are very strict (basically the recipient of an overpayment has to be dead with no estate in order to approve a write-off).  Also, won't you be pleased if the audit discovers an underpayment?  This happens too.

Perhaps a larger PIL Team could have speeded up the process, but that takes more people (of which there is not an endless supply to start with)  and costs more money.  A compromise had to be made.  Remember also that although the government is obligated to pay us the money, because we've earned it IAW the the terms of service to which we agreed upon enrolment, an argument could be made that they were under no obligation to pay us now.  They could have made us wait until release, because that too was part of the terms of service to which we all agreed upon enrolment.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

They could have made us wait until release, because that too was part of the terms of service to which we all agreed upon enrolment.

Some of us are released................and still waiting.

 

[SupersonicMax]

You just don't get it.  They're not auditing or calculating Severance Pay (or in this case Payment in Lieu - PIL).  That calculation is actually pretty simple (one week's pay at applicable rate X number of years of service).  What they're doing is confirming financial transactions over a member's entire career in order to ensure that the entire pay account is correct prior to final payout.  The system is trying to prevent a situation where they have to hunt someone down at a later date to either recover or return money from/to a former member.  The audit includes looking at pay, allowances, leave, any other thing to which one can attach a dollar sign.  Think this is simple?  Think again:

So, they are verifying the calculation was correct iaw with what were actually entitled?  In other words, auditing our pay and benefits for our entire career.  And you are telling me that only a handful of people in Ottawa are qualified or can be qualified to do it?  There is absolutely no way to delegate the responsibility down to the bases in order to speed up the process (and train people in the process)?  I get it, there is a finite amount of ressource (people). Bit the more people are qualified, the faster it is going to go, even if it means they each dedicate less than their whole day, every day, to the process. Yup, they COULD have us waiting until release. 

It goes back to a decentralized execution.

I don't think it is acceptable by any standard to wait 2 years to see the money you are entitled to (that you could make interest on, and a lot of it).  Nor do I think it is acceptable to wait 6 months for a claim, but this is a separate issue...

 

[dapaterson]

So, let me see if I have this straight.

Your clerks are so far behind that it takes six months to be reimbursed for your claims.

Therefore, your solution for PiL is to add additional tasks to their workload, tasks for which they are not trained.

 

[SupersonicMax]

So, let me see if I have this straight.

Your clerks are so far behind that it takes six months to be reimbursed for your claims.

Therefore, your solution for PiL is to add additional tasks to their workload, tasks for which they are not trained.

Unit clerks are behind.  Not the Wing clerks.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

.  I am pretty confident that with minimal training, any pilot can do any pilot staff job.

Sorry - I tried - but I can't let this one go by.

I get it that you have been trained to operate a complex piece of machinery, and that you are justifiably proud of having mastered your craft.  Having said that, throughout your career, your lasting impact and true influence will be exercised while you are employed in non-flying jobs, or in true leadership roles.  Roles where your skill and effectiveness will affect more than just your self, your wingman, or the members of your six pack.  Roles where the needs of the institution and your subordinates trump your own.  Roles where you suborn your own ego and needs to serve the greater good.

I am not an operator of machinery like you, less my LAV of course.  I have spent my career bouncing between command and staff jobs, with the odd bit of education and professional development thrown in to round me out.  On reflection, I have had greater impact and substantially more influence in staff jobs than I have while in command, a truth that makes me slightly uncomfortable.  Uncomfortable or not, it is however true. 

Let us not sink to mindless and knee-jerk denigration of staff officers - they serve the institution to a greater extent than "operators" are willing to admit.

 

[George Wallace]

Unit clerks are behind.  Not the Wing clerks.

???

If the originating source (Unit clerks) are behind, then the whole process will be behind. 

 

[211RadOp]

Here is the last update from 25 Nov 13, is there a new update?

The PIL Team has been fully operational for some months now and has received over 45,000 files to be audited. Audits have been completed on 24,945 files or 55% comprised of both Regular Force and Reserve Force.

Files are being audited based on the date the file has been received by the PIL Team in Ottawa, not the date the member submits the application to the support unit. Currently the team is auditing files received on 21 March 2013. The majority of the files that were received prior to this date have been audited and returned for payment. Those requiring additional information from either units and/or archives are put on hold until the information comes in.

Check you pay statements.  The PIL for some is on the Mid-Jan pay.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Sorry - I tried - but I can't let this one go by.

I get it that you have been trained to operate a complex piece of machinery, and that you are justifiably proud of having mastered your craft.  Having said that, throughout your career, your lasting impact and true influence will be exercised while you are employed in non-flying jobs, or in true leadership roles.  Roles where your skill and effectiveness will affect more than just your self, your wingman, or the members of your six pack.  Roles where the needs of the institution and your subordinates trump your own.  Roles where you suborn your own ego and needs to serve the greater good.

I am not an operator of machinery like you, less my LAV of course.  I have spent my career bouncing between command and staff jobs, with the odd bit of education and professional development thrown in to round me out.  On reflection, I have had greater impact and substantially more influence in staff jobs than I have while in command, a truth that makes me slightly uncomfortable.  Uncomfortable or not, it is however true. 

Let us not sink to mindless and knee-jerk denigration of staff officers - they serve the institution to a greater extent than "operators" are willing to admit.

I don't disagree with you.  Staff jobs are essential, but in the end, they are in support of the pointy end. 

I am pretty confident any infantry officer could do any infantry officer staff jobs, any MARS officer could do any MARS officer staff job, just like any pilot could do any Pilot staff jobs.

GW: PiL was actually procesed rather quickly at our unit and base.  Most are still waiting for the money.  My point is that delegation of tasks down to the base level would increase efficiency in the process.