CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[mariomike]

And because I haven't responded to you yet, I hate to break it to you but paramedics, nurses and doctors aren't economists, security experts or even public health policy experts. 

Hate to break it to you, too. I was responding to Scott.

You sound like an expert. Do you work at "the coal face"?

Folks can argue numbers all they want, but in the end, it's people. For me, operating at the coal face every day, it's not numbers.

This needs to be quoted more.

This is where you can get the straight dope on what's happening, and perhaps forecasts based on an SMEs* experience.

*Anyone else at the coal face with a differing opinion?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Hate to break it to you, too. But, this is who I was responding to,

Nope you were responding to those who disagree with you but in a fairly typical posting style of yours:

If someone disagrees with you or doesn't share your opinion and you are challenged, you either avoid, dismiss, repudiate or obfuscate. 

 

[mariomike]

Nope you were responding to those who disagree with you but in a fairly typical posting style of yours:

If someone disagrees with you or doesn't share your opinion and you are challenged, you either avoid, dismiss, repudiate or obfuscate.

Thanks for making it personal. 

 

[Eaglelord17]

I know that crime has skyrocketed where I am. The criminals aren't even remotely afraid now as it is basically a revolving door with no consequences for them. There was a article in the paper about a guy they had to arrest 7 times in one day before they finally put him in jail. B&Es are up, even in broad daylight. They are literally walking around the town with shopping carts full of their ill gotten gains at all times of day. I am surprised people aren't going vigilante yet as its getting to the point the government is no longer keeping people safe. I honestly don't care if the criminals catch Covid and die, you did the crime, you do the time and if that places you at risk to this disease so be it that was your decision.

The problem with health experts is they only look at things from one perspective not a overall picture. For example they want the speed limit in residential areas reduced to 30km/h because less people die when hit at 30km/h than 50km/h. This doesn't mean it is practical for everyone else as we all still have places to go. Another example is how they consider disposable items better for your health as there is a risk of improper sanitization with reusable items, however from a environmental perspective that isn't a good way to do things.

I am not saying for or against the health experts, simply that there is a lot of factors that they usually don't look at in play here.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Thanks for making it personal. 

No that was all you with this comment:

With all due respect to anonymous strangers on the internet, I agree.

And then your inference that you're at the coal face which somehow makes your opinion of a higher value than anyone elses.  Complete and utter nonsense of course but don't worry I'll keep that in mind next time you make reference to your days as a paramedic when discussing Military affairs. 

I know that crime has skyrocketed where I am. The criminals aren't even remotely afraid now as it is basically a revolving door with no consequences for them. There was a article in the paper about a guy they had to arrest 7 times in one day before they finally put him in jail. B&Es are up, even in broad daylight. They are literally walking around the town with shopping carts full of their ill gotten gains at all times of day. I am surprised people aren't going vigilante yet as its getting to the point the government is no longer keeping people safe. I honestly don't care if the criminals catch Covid and die, you did the crime, you do the time and if that places you at risk to this disease so be it that was your decision.

The problem with health experts is they only look at things from one perspective not a overall picture. For example they want the speed limit in residential areas reduced to 30km/h because less people die when hit at 30km/h than 50km/h. This doesn't mean it is practical for everyone else as we all still have places to go. Another example is how they consider disposable items better for your health as there is a risk of improper sanitization with reusable items, however from a environmental perspective that isn't a good way to do things.

I am not saying for or against the health experts, simply that there is a lot of factors that they usually don't look at in play here.

Credit is basically unavailable to anyone who doesn't have the cleanest of records.  If you collected CERB, you will not be loaned money by the bank, regardless of what assets you have or if you are now working again.

This is inspite of interest rates being at record lows and the Government trying to actively encourage banks to loan money. 

The long term unintended consequence of working from home is that companies have now proven that they can virtually outsource a lot work.  My bet is just like manufacturing in the 80s and 90s, tech jobs will also begin to be outsourced.  Why pay computer engineers and programmers big money in Canada or the US when you can pay Indian or Chinese engineers less money and receive a similar product?

 

[mariomike]

And then your inference that you're at the coal face which somehow makes your opinion of a higher value than anyone elses. 

Read again. s l o w l y.

No longer at the "coal face".

I was agreeing with this,

Sorry but I’ll defer to the experts.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Read again. s l o w l y.

Don't worry I can read, I can also articulate an argument and defend it, which you seem to be incapable of doing.  :boring:

 

[Scott]

No offence but this makes you totally susceptible to what is known in economics as the Broken Window Fallacy or only taking in to consideration that which is seen vs that which is unseen.

Makes him susceptible, doesn't mean it's occurring. And I won't dismiss an opinion simply due to the risk of this bias - because having read the source's posts for a number of years, I am comfortable that he's not just yapping.

 

[mariomike]

Makes him susceptible, doesn't mean it's occurring. And I won't dismiss an opinion simply due to the risk of this bias - because having read the source's posts for a number of years, I am comfortable that he's not just yapping.

All I've learned ( professionally ) in this world is how to drive an M135 and departmental trucks and buses.

I'm here because I love to learn about jobs I am not familiar with. ( Probably should avoid politics. )   

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Makes him susceptible, doesn't mean it's occurring. And I won't dismiss an opinion simply due to the risk of this bias - because having read the source's posts for a number of years, I am comfortable that he's not just yapping.

I don't disagree Scott.  My problem with the present situation we find ourselves in is I feel like we are succumbing to fear in our present decision-making calculations.

I do know that people here in the Emergency Serivces, particularly Hospitals, have had to see and experience some terrible things over the past few months.  That's not in question.

What I am questioning is the logic of lockdown policies and the simplistic calculus being used by some.  It isn't a simple A+B=C calculation. 

 

[Remius]

What I am questioning is the logic of lockdown policies and the simplistic calculus being used by some.  It isn't a simple A+B=C calculation.

But you are claiming that the country is in a complete lockdown.  It isn't. 

THAT is also not a simple A+B=C calculation. 

 

[Scott]

I don't disagree Scott.  My problem with the present situation we find ourselves in is I feel like we are succumbing to fear in our present decision-making calculations.

Can't dismiss that. I think it's natural that we go overboard on some stuff.

What I am questioning is the logic of lockdown policies and the simplistic calculus being used by some.  It isn't a simple A+B=C calculation.

Agree with Remius on this one.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But you are claiming that the country is in a complete lockdown.  It isn't. 

THAT is also not a simple A+B=C calculation. 

It is if you're about to go bankrupt...

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

But you are claiming that the country is in a complete lockdown.  It isn't. 

THAT is also not a simple A+B=C calculation.

I've never claimed that the Country is in a complete lockdown.  I am saying that there are certain people calling for a complete lockdown and that my opinion is they are wrong to do so and that this decision sacrifices the many to benefit the privileged few.

There are also 12,000 scientists and 34,000 medical practitioners that agree with me:

https://gbdeclaration.org/view-signatures/

Our present policies have protected the professional class while exposing the working class to greater risk.  The data backs this up:

That's why I have been saying COVID lockdown policies as they are presently being implemented are wrong.  They also don't protect older and vulnerable groups:

Don’t the current age-wide lockdown strategies properly protect the old?

No, on the contrary. There have been many unnecessary deaths, and especially among the urban working class. Current lockdown policies have failed to protect the vulnerable.

Concrete examples of these failures include: 

Requiring older “essential” workers and members of the working class that cannot afford not to work to be put in work situations where they may be exposed to the virus.
Failure to protect nursing home residents from exposure to the virus from staff members, visitors, and other residents. 

No provision for elderly people living in multi-generational homes to be shielded should a family member be exposed to the virus

https://gbdeclaration.org/frequently-asked-questions/

The stats on how we are failing the people who are actually vulnerable are there for all to see:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6933e1.htm

Or our privatized nursing homes where nothing has really changed and we are still experiencing COVID outbreaks.

 

[Remius]

It is if you're about to go bankrupt...

Yep.  Same as with dying from COVID.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Yep.  Same as with dying from COVID.

or the flu in years past.

We can do this all night.

Listen, I'm for everyone doing what they should, but I think we have to accept that it's here and it's part of our lives now.  We know the sun can cause skin cancer but we still go outside, work outside, lay outside, etc, but we take precautions.  [doing the right thing]  I have skin in the game, my Mother is almost 93 and in a LTC, but even she is very aware that even with staff doing everything right, this could still get her.  She accepts that...…

BUT LET ME RESTATE:  DO THE RIGHT THINGS YOU MORONS THAT ARE NOT!!

 

[OldSolduer]

BUT LET ME RESTATE:  DO THE RIGHT THINGS YOU MORONS THAT ARE NOT!!

And I agree. About 200 residents of Steinbach, Manitoba have given that city of 16,000 a black eye by conducting an anti mask rally on Sunday. There was a good article in the WFP this morning about how the comments made were inappropriate (ie hillbillies and other unflattering comments) and how Christians are pilloried. And I quite agree.

 

[ModlrMike]

No offence but this makes you totally susceptible to what is known in economics as the Broken Window Fallacy or only taking in to consideration that which is seen vs that which is unseen.

I fully understand the susceptibility to the Broken Windows Fallacy. I was speaking from the position of compassion, rather than statistics.

Personally, I think rather than shutting the whole thing down, we can achieve our goals through a limited access approach. People aren't getting this through some random encounter at the grocery store. They're getting it by close contact with people the know. For example, one recent case in Winnipeg had 85 contacts. How the *%$@ do you have 85 known contacts when we're supposed to stay away from each other? People need to smarten up and do the right thing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I fully understand the susceptibility to the Broken Windows Fallacy. I was speaking from the position of compassion, rather than statistics.

Personally, I think rather than shutting the whole thing down, we can achieve our goals through a limited access approach. People aren't getting this through some random encounter at the grocery store. They're getting it by close contact with people the know. For example, one recent case in Winnipeg had 85 contacts. How the *%$@ do you have 85 known contacts when we're supposed to stay away from each other? People need to smarten up and do the right thing.

And that won't happen, and the government knows it.

What they can't allow is another full lockdown as the detrimental effects of that are even greater than the half a$$ed approaches we're using now.

Harms of public health interventions against covid-19 must not be ignored


https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4074

 

[FSTO]

And I agree. About 200 residents of Steinbach, Manitoba have given that city of 16,000 a black eye by conducting an anti mask rally on Sunday. There was a good article in the WFP this morning about how the comments made were inappropriate (ie hillbillies and other unflattering comments) and how Christians are pilloried. And I quite agree.

Not all were from Steinbach.....but its a black eye for the region none the less.