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CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

Loachman

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I'm one of those "injectees" who would be uncomfortable with being vaccinated by someone whose "medical training" was limited to solely sticking a needle into someone's upper arm.
I thank you for that detailed explanation.
 

Remius

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Brad Sallows

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Biden can only change what the federal government does, not the states. Can he execute some changes? Trivially true. Can we run counter-factuals to determine whether current policies (including the bad, such as the recent CDC/FDA over-caution) are on net better or worse? No. "Change" isn't automatically positive, and many policies affect pandemic mitigation/militation (eg. the illegal immigration SNAFU in progress which was prompted by "changes").

Centralization is not automatically helpful, but sounds like a good idea to people who have forgotten that agencies and their employees are much more empowered to say "No" than "Yes", and tend to be over-cautious. The J&J stuff is just the most recent concrete example. That alone may cause reputational damage to the vaccination effort which exceeds all the good of all other changes thought to be beneficial. It directly corrodes the aim: to get as many people vaccinated as soon as possible.
 

Altair

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We are third in the G20.



Screenshot (129).png
 

PuckChaser

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We are third in the G20.
Makes a great soundbite, but how many people have died due to delay in vaccine procurement? How many provinces are still under curfew and lockdown because there wasn't adequate vaccination (we are just now finishing the vulnerable 70+ groups nationally) among the working population to prevent spread?

Your chart shows you can prove any position by skewing the data. In the time it took us to procure and administer 7.4M doses (20% of our population), the US has managed to procure and administer 122M doses (almost 40% of their population) and 75M of those individuals are fully vaccinated. 200% of Canada's population fully vaccinated, 340% of Canada's population with 1 dose. Seems like a roaring success right there. 🤦‍♂️
 

Mick

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Makes a great soundbite, but how many people have died due to delay in vaccine procurement? How many provinces are still under curfew and lockdown because there wasn't adequate vaccination (we are just now finishing the vulnerable 70+ groups nationally) among the working population to prevent spread?

Your chart shows you can prove any position by skewing the data. In the time it took us to procure and administer 7.4M doses (20% of our population), the US has managed to procure and administer 122M doses (almost 40% of their population) and 75M of those individuals are fully vaccinated. 200% of Canada's population fully vaccinated, 340% of Canada's population with 1 dose. Seems like a roaring success right there. 🤦‍♂️
Probably more appropriate to compare Canada to a similar country with no domestic production capability whatsoever. But that point was made and discussed pages ago.

If Canada had maintained a domestic vaccine production capability, the various provincial restrictions could have probably been lifted sooner.
 

mariomike

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Altair

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Makes a great soundbite,
About as good as the soundbite that we were 50th in the world and last in the G20
but how many people have died due to delay in vaccine procurement?
Hard to quantify. Assuming that Canada has been buying the most vaccines as fast a possible and being unable to do much about production delays, none?
How many provinces are still under curfew and lockdown because there wasn't adequate vaccination (we are just now finishing the vulnerable 70+ groups nationally) among the working population to prevent spread?
Many, but every other G20 country outside of the UK and USA have been dealing with the exact same issues. So the only way Canadas vaccine rollout is in any ways bad is if you have unrealistic expectations.
Your chart shows you can prove any position by skewing the data. In the time it took us to procure and administer 7.4M doses (20% of our population), the US has managed to procure and administer 122M doses (almost 40% of their population) and 75M of those individuals are fully vaccinated. 200% of Canada's population fully vaccinated, 340% of Canada's population with 1 dose. Seems like a roaring success right there. 🤦‍♂️
The data is the data.

3rd in the G20.
 

mariomike

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I just don't want to get killed by the darn thing.

Since the source above is Johns Hopkins University, so is this,

As of yesterday, U.S. Covid deaths per 100,000 population were almost triple ours.

As far as comparing Canada's vaccination rate to other countries, as Mick explained,

Probably more appropriate to compare Canada to a similar country with no domestic production capability whatsoever. But that point was made and discussed pages ago.

As long as we are comparing Canada to other countries, perhaps this will cheer some readers up,

 

PuckChaser

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Seems like the PM is still living in a dreamland. He says there will be over 44M doses distributed by June. Let's take a peek at the numbers and see where we'll be:

Current delivered Doses as of 14 Apr: 12.7M
Pfizer Expected Doses End Apr+May: 6.1M
Moderna Expected Doses End Apr+May: 4M
J+J/AZ Doses Expected End Apr+May: No Data

Total Doses Delivered+Expected End May 21: 22.8M
Total Delta Between Promise and Expected: 21.2M

The data: Canada.ca COVID Vaccine Shipments

Even if Pfizer and Moderna keep up their dose delivery schedule (Moderna 2.8M per month and Pfizer 4M), that leaves J+J and AZ/Covishield picking up the tab for 15M doses when they've only been able to deliver 1.3M (all AZ/Covishield) since approval in March.

The data is the data.

You're right, the data shows the PM either can't do math or is lying to Canadians, and the Federal Government has objectively failed at signing contracts to deliver COVID doses to Canadians at a reasonable rate, causing this wave to be significantly more severe than it needed to be.
 

Mick

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While I'm not sure that a lack of supply is driving the third wave in ON, I agree that the chances of getting all Canadians their first shot by Canada Day is looking unlikely at this point, unless manufacturers can address their production and backlog issues.
 

PuckChaser

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Canada and the US are tied very closely. They've got 125M people single dose and 78M of them are fully vaccinated. They're not seeing a third wave at all. Israel has 60% of its population fully vaccinated and they've gone from 8K cases per day in January to 312 yesterday. I think that's pretty good evidence that vaccination would have stopped this wave in its tracks.
 

Altair

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Seems like the PM is still living in a dreamland. He says there will be over 44M doses distributed by June. Let's take a peek at the numbers and see where we'll be:

Current delivered Doses as of 14 Apr: 12.7M
Pfizer Expected Doses End Apr+May: 6.1M
Moderna Expected Doses End Apr+May: 4M
J+J/AZ Doses Expected End Apr+May: No Data
You're being purposely disingenuous. You are not counting the deliveries coming in June.

By the end of June, when Pfizer is going to dump 9.6 million doses on us alone, the totals will be


Pfizer: 23.3m
Moderna: 14.2m
AZ: 6.4m

And that is not counting the J&J doses coming in, and not counting getting a portion of the AZ that the USA has stockpiled and is likely to never use.

In the article you posted, the PM has said

"Trudeau has said that based on the overall quarterly agreements from Canada’s approved vaccine manufacturers, by June the government is expecting to have received more than 44 million doses, enough that every eligible person should be able to receive their first shot by Canada Day."
Total Doses Delivered+Expected End May 21: 22.8M
Total Delta Between Promise and Expected: 21.2M
Count the June numbers and you fix the problem.
The data: Canada.ca COVID Vaccine Shipments

Even if Pfizer and Moderna keep up their dose delivery schedule (Moderna 2.8M per month and Pfizer 4M), that leaves J+J and AZ/Covishield picking up the tab for 15M doses when they've only been able to deliver 1.3M (all AZ/Covishield) since approval in March.
June numbers.
You're right, the data shows the PM either can't do math
June numbers.
or is lying to Canadians,
June numbers.
and the Federal Government has objectively failed at signing contracts to deliver COVID doses to Canadians at a reasonable rate, causing this wave to be significantly more severe than it needed to be.
You seem to want the Canadian response to be on par with the USA and the UK. Because those are the only 2 countries who have done better than Canada in the G20.

And that's fine, it is you right to expect Canada to be on par with them, however unreasonable.

While we are on the subject of unreasonable expectations lets compare Canadian nuclear weapons to those in the UK and USA.

Wait, we don't produce nukes?

Makes it kind of hard to compare...
 

Altair

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While I'm not sure that a lack of supply is driving the third wave in ON, I agree that the chances of getting all Canadians their first shot by Canada Day is looking unlikely at this point, unless manufacturers can address their production and backlog issues.
Don't let @PuckChaser trick you.

Pfizer is dumping 9.6 million vaccines on Canada in June alone.

Pfizers numbers by the end of June alone will be 23.3m alone

The adult population of Canada will likely be mostly covered by Pfizer alone by Canada day.

Remember that we do not need to vaccinate every Canadian, we need to vaccinate every adult Canadian. Unless people expect to start jabbing every minor who we do not have significant studies done on, or any regulatory permissions to do so?

Even Israel has only vaccinated 60 odd percent of the population. Why? Those under 18 are not being vaccinated. So they have reached the upper band of those they are able to vaccinate.

While Israel has a lot of children running around, 60-65 percent is where everyone is going to end up. Having 43 million vaccines by the end of june will cover every adult Canadian, at least once by Canada day.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Sigh.......and I'm winning Lottomax in July. Can I start making promises to my debtors now??
 

Altair

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Sigh.......and I'm winning Lottomax in July. Can I start making promises to my debtors now??
I love that people said that Canada couldn't make the September deadline, saying that Canada messed up procurement and would never make that deadline.

Now that the schedule has been pushed up to early July, people are saying they wont meet that deadline. And I'm laughing, because as a country that doesn't produce any vaccines we are 3rd on the G20, ahead of the major countries of Europe, getting the top tier of vaccines in Pfizer and Moderna, and not junk like Sinovac and Sputnik (if you think AZ sucks) all while not making a single vaccine.

This is on par with having the 4th biggest air force and 5th biggest navy at the end of WW2, a great performance by a middle power.
 
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