CF-104

[CF104Starfighter]

Any of you old enough to have ever seen one fly?  My mom was a photo tech on them in Baden in the 70s, and she's got lots of picture of them, and I have to say, this aircraft has to be my absolute favourite.  I know we don't fly them anymore, but I could go as far as saying that they've *thinks of a good word* inspired me to want to fly for Canada sometime.

Not the greatest photo, but it was too big for my scanner.

 

[Sundborg]

You see that castle back there?  yea, that's mine.  ;D

 

[Inch]

I think pictures in front of that castle were the "in" thing, I've seen pictures of Hornets, Hornets & MiG's, etc.

 

[George Wallace]

You see that castle back there? yea, that's mine. ;D

So you are a Hoewenzollerin(SP)?

 

[Sundborg]

So you are a Hoewenzollerin(SP)?

Yeaaaaa...  suuure. 

 

[MP 811]

I remember the CF-105 Starfighter, one of my favourite planes at the time.  Hell I even remember the freakin CF-101 Voodoo.  Those plans were badass and looked like they could kick some serious but...............now on the other hand, the CF-5...................

 

[Gunnerlove]

Do you mean you love the CF-104 starfighter as the CF-105 was the Arrow and never reached production. The Voodoo? Nothing like a surplus aircraft to do almost what you want.

Hey any 104 jocks out there remember the heel spurs to save your knees? I hear the ladies loved em.

 

[Korus]

There's a F-104 demonstration team out there, from the States. Kind of like the 'Blue Angels', 'SnowBirds', or 'Thunderbirds', but they're private. (IIRC).

Did anybody make it to Cold Lake for the airshow this year? I missed out on it, and was pretty chafed about that, but the website said the F-104 demonstration team would be there.

 

[Slim]

Do you mean you love the CF-104 starfighter as the CF-105 was the Arrow and never reached production.

There is a difference between the CF105 and the CF5. The 105 was the Arrow the 5 is the U.S. F5 that we bought way back when.

Please be more concise when presenting something as fact. It will confuse other members who do not know the difference.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I was trying to clarify the difference between the CF-104 Starfighter and the CF-105 Arrow. That is why I did not mention the CF-5 in my last post.To be fair to MP 811 it was probably just a typo. 

The CF-101 was the Voodoo which was an all weather interceptor bought surplus from the US to fill the gap left by the cancellation of the Arrow project.
The CF-104 was the Starfighter shown in the pic at the top of the thread, it is unusual for a Canadian aircraft as it is single engined. It was built by Canadair
The CF-105 was the Avro Arrow fighter interceptor that never entered service as the project was cancelled before full production started.
The CF-5 was the Freedom fighter a lightweight air superiority fighter built by Canadair.

All of these aircraft are totally different airframes and look unique. There is tons of info on all of the above on the web which if you are reading this you should have access to.

If you want to see something confusing, our CF-105 Arrow was a totally different aircraft with a totally different role than the US F-105 Thunderchief.

 

[Slim]

Thank you for you excellent clarification of your earlier statement. Very good descriptions of the various aircraft.

The only thing I will add is that the CF104 was nicknamed the Widowmaker by those who flew her. The aircraft had a tendency to "flame out" at lower altitudes as it used to ingest birds (told to me by several different people). There were a great many that flew into mountains as well. (not sure why)

Slim

 

[Inch]

Slim, the controlled flight into terrain was mostly caused by doing their nav at 50ft and Mach 1.whatever, if you look inside for even a sec you're dead.   I've heard of 104 drivers that have hit houses and such while looking back after hitting their target. Most of that stuff has been remedied with proper training.

The bird thing is totally true, we had a Hawk suck one in 800 ft above the ground in Moose Jaw this past spring, they were just pulling up after doing a touch and go and sucked in a Seagull.   They flamed out and had enough time to tell the tower that they were ejecting.   They were about 2 miles north of the airport.   The British student had minor cuts and was at the mess drinking that night.   The Cdn instructor wasn't so fortunate, he broke his femur in 2 places and broke his pelvis. When I left Moose Jaw in May he was still in hospital.

Another point on the Starfighter, it didn't glide so well either.   When we practice engine failures in the Harvard we need to be overhead the runway at 3000' above the ground (called high key) in order to make the orbit around and land. The 104 had to be at high key at 22,000ish ft, if not, then they got a couple inches shorter and went for a parachute ride.

Cheers

 

[Slim]

Well...It didn't have much wing did it? Although not a pilot that airplane is probably something I would not wish to fly. Did you ever get the chance?

 

[Inch]

I'm not that old amigo, I was learning to ride 2 wheelers when those things came out of service.  My buddy's dad used to fly them, he had 3 ejection handles on his mantle, he once told me that unless you were above 20,000 ft, you would be ejecting if you flamed out. He was a very generous man, gave 3 Starfighters back to the taxpayers.  ;D

The other name people used to call them was "the missile with the man in it", so not much of a wing at all. If you get a chance to look at one real close, the leading edge of the wing was almost as sharp as a knife.



Cheers

 

[Slim]

Oddly enough I sat in one at the CNE once...Kind of reminded me of a cockpit in an old fashioned racing car. I have also sat in a A10 Thunderbolt. That was a treat...Could have got a ride if it wasn't a single seater...

 

[Inch]

A 10s are pretty sweet. If you ever get the chance to sit in a Hornet, that's something to see. It feels like you're sitting on top of it instead of inside it. A fantastic view.

 

[CF104Starfighter]

Slim, the controlled flight into terrain was mostly caused by doing their nav at 50ft and Mach 1.whatever, if you look inside for even a sec you're dead.   I've heard of 104 drivers that have hit houses and such while looking back after hitting their target. Most of that stuff has been remedied with proper training.

The bird thing is totally true, we had a Hawk suck one in 800 ft above the ground in Moose Jaw this past spring, they were just pulling up after doing a touch and go and sucked in a Seagull.   They flamed out and had enough time to tell the tower that they were ejecting.   They were about 2 miles north of the airport.   The British student had minor cuts and was at the mess drinking that night.   The Cdn instructor wasn't so fortunate, he broke his femur in 2 places and broke his pelvis. When I left Moose Jaw in May he was still in hospital.

Another point on the Starfighter, it didn't glide so well either.   When we practice engine failures in the Harvard we need to be overhead the runway at 3000' above the ground (called high key) in order to make the orbit around and land. The 104 had to be at high key at 22,000ish ft, if not, then they got a couple inches shorter and went for a parachute ride.

Cheers

All aircraft have that chance though, don't they?  I remember my mom telling me when she was posted in Moose Jaw, there was a one bell, and there had been a Tutor crash.  She had to get in the chopper and take pictures, unfortunatly, some of the pictures she had to take were of the dead pilots.  They were doing touch and go's at CYQR, and there was a birdstrike.  The student pilot would have ejected, but he stayed, because had they ejected, it might have crashed into a retirement home.  She said it was a pretty rough site.  And strangely enough, when they looked at the bodies, their sunglasses were still in their pockets, both unbroken.  She also told me that earlier in the day she had taken pictures at the pilot's promotion.

Another ejection story, but this time with a happier ending.  In Germany there was a....Think it was another photo tech....Flying with a pilot in a 104, and there was smoke in the cockpit.  So, they declared an emergency, and the pilot told the tech they might have to eject.  Well, the situation was resolved, but there was a bit of miscommunication.  The pilot gave the guy in the back the thumbs up, but the tech took it the wrong way and ejected ;D  That'd be an awkward situation to explain.

Ok, one more.  My mom was doing a weather check in Moose Jaw with a Tutor pilot, and they were landing, and apparently the pin didn't go back into the seat correctly.  The pilot luckily noticed this, and declared an emergency and told my mom that her pin wasn't in, and her handle bars looked raised.  My mom had to sit totally still for quite a while, while they figured the whole situation out.  She told me she was slightly rattled. 

 

[Gunnerlove]

http://www.danshistory.com/f104.html

"Cantilever mid-wing monoplane. Bi-convex supersonic wing section with a thickness/chord ratio of 3.36 per cent. Anhedral 10 degrees. No incidence. Sweepback 18 degrees 6' at quarter-chord. Leading-edge nose radius of 0.41 mm (0.016 in) and razor-sharp trailing-edge. Narrow-chord ventral fin on centreline and two smaller lateral fins under fuselage to improve stability."

On the later and upgraded 104s they gave a slight radius (16 thousandths of an inch) to the leading edges as it reduced the instantaneous stall to a slightly more gradual one.They left the trailing edge super sharp though and in many ground handling pics you will see felt covers on the trailing and sometimes the leading edges. They also gave some models drooping leading edges to reduce stall speed and increase maneuverability.  

The spurs I mentioned before were used to secure the pilots heels to the ejection seat and thus prevent the still all to common smashing your knees and breaking your legs on the instrument panel on the ride out.

I was at a human factors lecture and saw a video of a bird strike test on a new 777 turbine. At takeoff power it could not loose more than 10% thrust or 10% rpm. They fired a small turkey into it and it took it like a champ I was expecting to see compressor blades everywhere but nothing came out of the turbine but minced turkey. Amazing, at least to me. Now the turbine in the Hawker is far smaller and would therefore be (at least in theory) more susceptible to damage from birdstrikes. Not a bad thing just the way it is.

Speaking of FOD my friend has a turbine blade with a huge stainless nut welded to it. Someone left it on the intake cowl and it fell inside the turbine. Now when it was spun up the pilot decided it was not sounding or responding correctly so he shut it down and the techs tore it off and as it was a brand new turbine sent it back to the manufacturer. The nut had been pinned against the compressor ring by a blade which wiped it around and around cutting the compressor case and fusing the nut to the blade. He keeps it on his mantle to remind himself what a couple million dollars really looks like. The airline sued the re-builder who blamed the airline as it was a structural nut and not something they would have used at the re-manufacturers. They settled out of court, split the cost of the turbine and paid their own legal fees.

Ah, the great Canadian ramble.

 

[Inch]

All right boys, a few points to clarify. Don't take it the wrong way, but as one of the resident pilots, I couldn't allow myths to perpetuate.

Starfighter: Yes any aircraft can do CFIT, if you're looking inside. It's pretty bloody hard to fly into the ground if you're looking outside.   It usually happens when guys are pulling off target and look back at the target or inside the cockpit to check the map, it's also pretty common during night approaches due to some of the illusions you're susceptible to at night.   As I stated in my post, most of this has been remedied with proper training. It is stressed over and over again to keep your head out of the cockpit in turns and pulling off target, and when you do put your head inside to do a cockpit or map check, it's for no more than 5 sec. Your Tutor story is a flameout and not CFIT, CFIT is a perfectly serviceable aircraft striking the ground.

*edit* I just reread your post and you didn't mention it was a flame out, but a birdstrike, in either case it's not CFIT but an emergency.

Your backseater ejection story, again fixed with proper training. It actually went the opposite way a year or so ago.   The Snowbirds were in London for an airshow and were up on a Media flight.   I think it was #1 & #5 that touched, 5 flew back and 1 ejected. In the Toots, you each had to pull your own handles.   The pax was briefed, and it was the same briefing you always give in ejection seat aircraft...."Prepare to abandon the aircraft....Eject, Eject, Eject" You pull on the second "Eject" and the pilot pulls on the third.   The pax in this case was waiting for the pilot to eject, so when the pilot said eject the third time and the pax was still sitting beside him, he punched out, the pax followed. Not a problem on the Hawk, Harvard or Hornet with interseat sequencing. On the Harvard, no matter who pulled, the back seat went first and like .37 sec later the front seat went. I'm not sure about the timings on the Hawk or Hornet since I haven't studied their operating instructions in detail.

The last one, I've dropped my seat pin a couple times. As long as you're strapped in properly, you're not going to get killed.   The tech just brought out a new pin, I put it in and that was the end of it. Gotta love the new seats. Martin Baker Mk16.

Gunnerlove,

Hitting your legs on the panel isn't a major concern anymore since all of our ejection seat aircraft except the Tutor have leg lines that pull your feet into the seat as you go up the rails.

I'm sure your Hawker comment was a misprint since we have Hawks made by BAe and not Hawker. The birds don't necessarily break the compressor blades to cause flameouts, if they block enough air inflow it'll flameout. So you could have a flameout without anything coming into contact with the compressor blades

Rant off.

Cheers

 

[Gunnerlove]

Sorry about that Hawk, Hawker mix up.

Not sure what I was thinking, my bad.