CF-105 Arrow (not army related, but still CF related.)

[Da_man]

i think this is the only place where i can post this, so sorry if its kinda off topic.

what i wanted to know is why was the Arrow cancelled? Do you think an other project like this could be undertaken to replace to CF-18?

"The biggest, most powerful, most expensive and potentially the fastest fighter that the world has yet seen. . . " -Flight Magazine, 1958

 

[Slim]

There was alot of secrecy surounding the sudden demise of the Arrow. It was the most advanced fighter plane in the world at the time.

I believe, personally, that the Americans got one of the planes and made us cancell the program as they didn‘t have anything to catch it at the time.

Canada bought the BOMARC missle in stead. I don‘t think that anyone really knows the whole truth. If they do then they aren‘t telling.

Slim

 

[kaspacanada]

There‘s a good book called ‘shutting down the national dream‘ about the Avro Arrow, at least that is the only one I have although there are likely more. Why don‘t you try a library and look it up. Government docs should have been released by now.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It started out as a joint project and when the US pulled their support with a change in focus to missle degence technologies (which also undermined any chance of interntational sales), we couldn‘t afford the continuation of the program as sole developer and purchaser.

 

[jbeach95]

The Arrow was developed only by Canada. The US was not involved in its development. Canada wanted the US to purchase the Arrow, but they indicated that they were not interested. Without the US buying the Arrow, the programme did not appear to be worthwhile economically. This is just one reason given for the cancellation.

Another good book about the Arrow is Palmiro Campagna‘s "Storms of Controversy." He wrote another book about the Arrow called "Requiem for a Giant," but I have not read it yet.

 

[Michael OLeary]

The Arrow was orginally a joint project with a Canadian airframe designed to use British engines (Rolls-Royce RB-106, or the Curtiss-Wright J67 as a backup) and an American designed weapon system ("weapon system originally selected was the Hughes MX-1179, which was the pairing of the existing MA-1 fire-control system, firing Falcon missiles of radar and heat seeking variants").

With the cancellation of the intended foreign engine programs (in 1954 and 1955), Canadian costs to maintain the program with the Orenda engine escalated. Pratt & Whitney engines were used in test flight models and the Orenda engine was developed for later models (proving one more component could have been completely Canadian technology).

The MX-1179 weapon system was replaced in the design in 1956, with the "RCA-Victor Astra fire control system in place of the MX-1179, firing the equally advanced US Navy Sparrow II in place of the Falcon."

Withdrawal of political and contributory support to the Arrow program by our allies caused costs to escalate to the point where the Canadian government was forced to consider cancellation. The move away from manned aircraft as the perceived primary defensive system against nuclear bombers and missiles meant that only Canada would be the intended purchaser of the Arrow - and it was deemed unsustainable from fiscal and political standpoints.

At the end of the program, it was completely Canadian - and that was its death knell.


Avro Arrow (Encyclopedia - The Free Dictionary page)

 

[Da_man]

this is sad... anyway thanks for the info.

 

[stukirkpatrick]

whats really sad is how the avro employees lost their jobs, and many left Canada to work in more profitible jobs (ie the space program and concorde jet development), reflecting the "brain drain" we see in the 90s.

 

[jbeach95]

Michael OLeary, to clarify, I did not mean to imply that they used only Canadian parts, just that the aircraft itself was designed and assembled by Avro Canada. They planned to use parts that were available at the time or were already being developed -- the weapons systems and original Rolls Royce engines were not designed primarily for the Arrow. In my opinion, this does not constitute a "joint project".

 

[tabernac]

What happened to the Iroquois engine? France had an order of 500 engines. I think that the the time it would take for the good word to spread about the Iroquois would be enough that France and other bystanding countries would eventually want to purchase the Arrow and her engines. I read that the Arrow would sometimes rival but mostly surpass the CF-18 in turning radius, acceleration, current costs,etc.
I WILL ALWAYS HATE DIEFENBAKER BECAUSE OF HIS DECISION. So sad, so very sad.

 

[Jeff Boomhouwer]

If you look at the Mcdonnell Douglas F4 Phantom closely you will see where alot of former A.V Roe employees went after the cancellation. That was a pretty successful aircraft.

 

[rdschultz]

At the John G. Diefenbaker airport here in Saskatoon, they have a small model of an Avro Arrow on display (along with numerous other aircraft).

 

[Thompson_JM]

heh... the Irony....

 

[Northern Touch]

Originally posted by cheeky_monkey:
[qb] What happened to the Iroquois engine? . [/qb]

I was thinking the exact same thing.
As I check my trusty Avro Aero CF 105 book, it appears that Avro Gas Turbine Devision, which made the Iroquois Engine, later became known as Orenda Engines, thus Iroquios Engine = Orenda Engine.

The CF 105 was acctually designed as a long range interceptor I believe, and then it became cancelled because of emphasis on missiles instead.

And yuppers, a lotta the people that worked on the project actually found jobs with NASA down south.

It‘s a **** shame

 

[jbeach95]

Originally posted by Northern Touch:
…it appears that Avro Gas Turbine Devision, which made the Iroquois Engine, later became known as Orenda Engines, thus Iroquios Engine = Orenda Engine.

The Orenda engine was not the same as the Iroquois.

A.V. Roe Canada‘s gas turbine division created the "Orenda" engine, which was used in the CF-100 Canuck.

A.V. Roe Canada was then subdivided into Avro Aircraft, which built airframes, and Orenda Engines, which built the "Orenda" and "Iroquois" engines.

The Iroquois programme was terminated along with the Arrow programme. The engines were cut up for scrap. This was done despite other counties wanting the engine.

A good book for a history of A.V. Roe Canada and its subsidiaries is Greig Stewart‘s "Shutting Down the National Dream," which inspired the CBC mini-series "The Arrow."

 

[Korus]

The thing I don‘t get, is why were all the planes cut up for scrap, and all the plans destroyed?

edit: I can‘t spell.

 

[Da_man]

Originally posted by Korus:
[qb] The thing I don‘t get, is why were all the planes cut up for scrap, and all the plans destroyed?

edit: I can‘t spell. [/qb]

Thats what i was thinking. They had 5 already built i believe. They could have at least kept them or sold them. Why were they destroyed?

 

[clasper]

Originally posted by Korus:
[qb] The thing I don‘t get, is why were all the planes cut up for scrap, and all the plans destroyed?

edit: I can‘t spell. [/qb]

A man by the name of Mikoyan would have been very interested in those plans and equipment...

 

[Spartan]

and they had up to arrow number 40 in various parts of production...

and the plans for a mach 3 variable intake arrow

and the iroqouis engine could have easily pushed out 2-2.2 Mach

all in all, there were alot of explainations for why it was scrapped, even though the british and americans backed out of purchasing the plane( actually not quite true, Britain wanted to buy all planes that were operational and almost operational on Black Friday),
alot of countries still wanted the engine...
but it is highly suggested that American pressure for the bomarc *dud* but we couldn‘t afford both... and then the used voodoo*duds*

 

[condor888000]

They had 6 fully built (RL-201 to 206).

It was built as a long-range interceptor for use in the artic as that was regarded as the most likely way of Soviet attack.

The Arrow was cancelled due to American pressure and the fact it tripled or quadrupled in cost per unit. It ended at about $12 million a plane. Part of the reason was that AVRO was designing not just a new airframe, not just a new engine, but also a weapons system to go along with it. Another reason it was cancelled is that sputnik had just been launched so everyone was thinking of missiles as the future. You also have to remember that we were told that if we didn't scrap the Arrows the States would put Bomarc's on the border, bringing Soviet bombers or any unexploded Bomarcs (and there unexploded nuclear weapons) down on our cities.

The engine had somewhere near 65000-75000 pounds of thrust (no afterburners). With afterburners it was incredible. No wonder everyone wanted it.

Not all the parts were destroyed. The Canada Aviation Museum has some Arrow parts and one of the original Iroquois engines. It has been claimed that the reason that the Arrows were destroyed is that Diefenbaker thought he would look like a fool if other countries bought the things after we had cancelled the project.

Overall, Diefenbaker was an idiot. The Bomarc's needed sandbags in the nose so that they wouldn't fall over and kill all those on the ground. We could have used them into the 70‘s at least. Instead we got the Voodooos that, wlile decent, were used. Idiot!