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CF Funding Discussion - A Merged Thread

Oh, by the way, your post contributed nothing to the discussion

But this did?
Feeling better now?  Got it out of your system?  By the way, did you even bother reading my actual posts, or did you simply framed your opinion based on the replies of George and al.  Imagine that!  The nerve of me!  A bunch of old boys slapping themselves in the back about how good the new Canada First Defence Strategy is.  And in comes this pompous ass Harry, who dares point out to a perceived weakness and seeks feedback to his observation.  How dare he?!!  With only 14 posts to his credit to boot!

All - the topic of the thread is Tories unveil Canada's long-term military strategy Let's stick to discussion of that, shall we? Keep the tit-for-tat focused on the comments, not the people making the comments.

Thanks

Army.ca Staff
 
I think we can all agree that the Tories vision is far superior to "We should persuade with the power of our ideas"( or whatever Axeworthy said ).

Manpower is a global issue in Canadian industry today, I mean who will pour all those "double doubles"?

But at least it is resolved, by the people who currently resolve such things, that Canada WILL have a military.

It's not much but I call it progress.  ;D

 
In all the discussions, I missed one important ingredient.  Recognition.  All the new toys won't keep a single person in for a second hitch unless the people who employ him recognize the contribution he has made to his/her country.  And all the antiquated junk won't force him out if the opposite is true.  Harry, your comments regarding staffing are only accurate if there is no sense of acceptence from the general population and the government.  Right now, the armed forces could be up to strength in 6 months if they had the capability of training all the folks who want to get in.  But it takes a long time because courses have to be small and frankly, we have totally neglected training and recruitment for decades  If and it is a big IF the government continues to grow its recognition then the forces will reach their objectives but they are going to have to spend more money than is already budgeted.  The navy needs to double in size.  We need a fleet of at least a dozen DH6's for the northland.  We need minitransports like the Spartan and we need aircraft/helicopters (armed) that can support our ground troops.  And we need them by the dozen: not just 17 or so.  Finally, we need hundreds of vehicles that can sustain damage and protect their crews.  This working paper is just a start.  I suspect, having listened to Day and Harper years ago, that they issued this because they believed it was all they could get away with at this stage.  At least I hope they still have the convictions they started with.  I am done.
 
YZT580 said:
............., we have totally neglected training and recruitment for decades  ............

This is the center of the problem.  We can not train large numbers, because we don't have the people to train them.  The emphasis right now is not on Recruiting, but on PLQ so that we can have the Instructors to train Recruits.  As YZT580 pointed out; we can only run small crses, as we have shortages of Instructors for PLQ Crses.

Top that problem up with the current lack of infrastructure caused by Base Closures, and demolition of facilities on remaining Bases, and the Training System is in a "world of hurt" limiting the amount of Crses that can be run.
 
What would be good right now for this discussion is someone with fresh stats on recruiting, trg and retention.  Last I heard, influx was 4% higher than releases; I believe that was for the last quarter of 2007 but not completely sure.  Is this still valid?  Do we still have the huge PAT platoons at various trg bases?

Popnfresh made a good point yesterday about a lot of guys signing in for three years, get a tour and then leave.  I saw the same, but not sure what % of the intake this represents.  Anyone from a freshly returned roto can chip in on how many guys left after their initial contract?  That would fit the "job hopping" attitude of the generation "Y" workforce.  Can we take advantage of that and still retain enough of them to rebuild the cadre of the CF? 
 
SeaKingTacco said:
Harry,

You are absolutely correct- there is no hope.  We are all doomed.  We can't possibly grow our military of 65,000 to a military of 70,000 in the next 10-20 years.  Imagine- a country with 33,000,000 people, where almost one in 471 of it's citizens wears a uniform.  Bloody militarism run rampant, I say.

Now that we have gotten agreeing with you out of the way, I would like to note from my "career attention deficit disorder" tour of all three services over that past 23 years (23 years exactly today, BTW), has shown me that we often do things the way that we always have, because that is the way it has always been done.  Equally, we often do things a certain way because, well, it works.

I have served in units that required a swift kick in the a$$ to reallocate manpower or do things differently to save money, time, effort or PYs.  Equally, I have been places where cuts and reorganizations have been conducted with ruthless efficiency that worked wonderfully...until war, a major disaster or some other "inconvenience" came along.

We could learn alot from Toyota when it comes to continual improvement e.g., get away from flavour of the month , hero driven approaches and adopt a long term process of incremental change - that involves everyone in the process - to get the results we need to survive into an uncertain future...

The Open Secret of Success
by James Surowiecki May 12, 2008

In the current atmosphere of economic tumult, the announcement that Toyota sold a hundred and sixty thousand more cars than General Motors in the first three months of this year might seem like a minor news item. But it may very well signal the end of one of the most remarkable runs in business history. For seventy-seven years, in good times and bad, G.M. has sold more cars annually than any other company in the world. But Toyota has long been the auto industry’s most profitable and innovative firm. And this year it appears likely to become, finally, the industry’s sales leader, too.
Calling Toyota an innovative company may, at first glance, seem a bit odd. Its vehicles are more liked than loved, and it is often attacked for being better at imitation than at invention. Fortune, which typically praises the company effusively, has labelled it “stodgy and bureaucratic.” But if Toyota doesn’t look like an innovative company it’s only because our definition of innovation—cool new products and technological breakthroughs, by Steve Jobs-like visionaries—is far too narrow. Toyota’s innovations, by contrast, have focussed on process rather than on product, on the factory floor rather than on the showroom. That has made those innovations hard to see. But it hasn’t made them any less powerful.

At the core of the company’s success is the Toyota Production System, which took shape in the years after the Second World War, when Japan was literally rebuilding itself, and capital and equipment were hard to come by. A Toyota engineer named Taiichi Ohno turned necessity into virtue, coming up with a system to get as much as possible out of every part, every machine, and every worker. The principles were simple, even obvious—do away with waste, have parts arrive precisely when workers need them, fix problems as soon as they arise. And they weren’t even entirely new—Ohno himself cited Henry Ford and American supermarkets as inspirations. But what Toyota has done, better than any other manufacturing company, is turn principle into practice. In some cases, it has done so with inventions, like the andon cord, which any worker can pull to stop the assembly line if he notices a problem, or kanban, a card system that allows workers to signal when new parts are needed. In other cases, it has done so by reorganizing factory floors and workspaces in order to allow for a freer and easier flow of parts and products. Most innovation focusses on what gets made. Toyota reinvented how things got made, which enabled it to build cars faster and with less labor than American companies.

But there’s an enigma to the Toyota Production System: although the system has been widely copied, Toyota has kept its edge over its competitors. Toyota opens its facilities to tours, and even embarked on a joint venture with G.M. designed, in part, to help G.M. improve its own production system. Over the years, more than three thousand books and articles have analyzed how the company works, and things like andon systems are now common sights on factory floors. The diffusion of Toyota’s concepts has had a real effect; the auto industry as a whole is far more productive than it used to be. So how has Toyota stayed ahead of the pack?

The answer has a lot to do with another distinctive element of Toyota’s approach: defining innovation as an incremental process, in which the goal is not to make huge, sudden leaps but, rather, to make things better on a daily basis. (The principle is often known by its Japanese name, kaizen—continuous improvement.) Instead of trying to throw long touchdown passes, as it were, Toyota moves down the field by means of short and steady gains. And so it rejects the idea that innovation is the province of an elect few; instead, it’s taken to be an everyday task for which everyone is responsible. According to Matthew E. May, the author of a book about the company called “The Elegant Solution,” Toyota implements a million new ideas a year, and most of them come from ordinary workers. (Japanese companies get a hundred times as many suggestions from their workers as U.S. companies do.) Most of these ideas are small—making parts on a shelf easier to reach, say—and not all of them work. But cumulatively, every day, Toyota knows a little more, and does things a little better, than it did the day before.
The system doesn’t necessarily preclude missteps—in 2006, Toyota ran into a series of quality problems—and it’s possible that the focus on incremental innovation would be less well suited to businesses driven by large technological leaps. But, on the whole, the results are hard to argue with. They’re also phenomenally difficult to duplicate. In part, this is because most companies are still organized in a very top-down manner, and have a hard time handing responsibility to front-line workers. But it’s also because the fundamental ethos of kaizen—slow and steady improvement—runs counter to the way that most companies think about change. Corporations hope that the right concept will turn things around overnight. This is what you might call the crash-diet approach: starve yourself for a few days and you’ll be thin for life. The Toyota approach is more like a regular, sustained diet—less immediately dramatic but, as everyone knows, much harder to sustain. In the nineteen-nineties, a McKinsey study of companies that had put quality-improvement programs in place found that two-thirds abandoned them as failures. Toyota’s innovative methods may seem mundane, but their sheer relentlessness defeats many companies. That’s why Toyota can afford to hide in plain sight: it knows the system is easy to understand but hard to follow.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2008/05/12/080512ta_talk_surowiecki




 
Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence news release:  "The Committee believes that General Natynczyk’s statement that the Government has guaranteed the military the kind of sustained and stable funding needed for growth simply does not stand up to reasonable economic analysis."  Minister's comments below.....

Four Generals and an Admiral:  The View from the Top
Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, 5 Aug 08
Report link (.pdf)

Conclusion:
The Committee admires the positive attitude of the senior officers who appeared before us on June 2 and June 9. It is clear that they are all enthusiastically addressing their challenges to provide the best “defence
product” for the Canadian taxpayer that is possible given their funding levels.  Canadians should be proud of the many ways the Canadian Forces find of making do within impossible budgets and unnecessary infrastructure burdens.

That having been said, budgets have been too tight under both Liberal and Conservative governments over the past two decades to give Canadians a reasonable level of protection at home and to allow them to contribute to a more stable world abroad.

Not only is current funding too low, it is not cost-effective. Current funding barely allows Canada to field a fighting force of 1,000 in any given off shore theatre – the current theatre being Afghanistan. There isn’t enough funding to go into any other theatre whatever the need might be to do that. And in the case of Afghanistan, it isn’t enough for Canadian Forces alone to secure the Kandahar Province area.

It is clear to everyone that the Canadian Forces are desperately short of personnel.  This is largely outside of the Forces’ control. More funding to assist in mounting an aggressive recruiting program, streamline intake processes and expand training capability are critical to the much-needed expansion of the Canadian Forces.

The Committee’s issues are not with the Forces and those who command them. Our issues continue to revolve around a shortfall in the funding level of the Forces, and timely approval of major capital projects. It is one thing to announce that a project is part of a plan, but if there is no overall plan put forward for the public to assess, then how can anybody decide whether it will really be feasible to do a number of
different things within a specified spending envelope?

We applaud the announcement of the Canada First Defence Strategy. But it is not enough to announce a strategy – if there is really any thoughtful planning behind this strategy it needs to be spelled out. Photo ops aren’t enough on these important issues. Canadians need to see the nuts and bolts of the Strategy to determine whether its various parts fit together.

The five military leaders who appeared before the Committee are highly decorated, combat-experienced men who have demonstrated outstanding managerial abilities and risen to the very peak of their profession. The Prime Minister was indeed privileged to have such excellent people from whom to choose a new Chief of Defence Staff. Any of the five would have been up to the job. They are men of intelligence, courage and integrity. But they need the tools to do the job.....

From CTV.ca:  "Defence Minister Peter MacKay has forcefully rejected a Senate analysis that says the Conservative government's defence plan won't deliver real spending increases to the military.  MacKay told CTV Newsnet on Wednesday that Sen. Colin Kenny, head of the Senate Security and Defence committee, has "a profound misunderstanding of what the Canadian government is doing vis a vis the Canadian Forces."  He accused Kenny of being "wilfully blind and misleading" in the report."
 
The CF wastes a lot of money on creature comforts. I'm all for being comfortable but when you buy a ton of new expensive chairs (few hundred dollars each) just because you 'have the money' and the other ones work perfectly fine someone should stop and take a look at how money is allocated. The spend money because you have it mentality should stop.
 
Why does it take a committee to tell us what we already know.

Starting in 1968, when Trudeau mania started, the forces went to the dogs. Now 40 years and 5 consecutive governments later the forces are in taters. It will take another few decades of big spending to get the forces, prior to were they where in 68. Unless we go on a US style spending spree, which I can't ever see happening in Canada, due to the fact that the opposition parties disdain for anything US would block it.

To top it all of we now have a minority government, who are trying even if it is only half heartily to inject some money to buy new equipment that we should of had 20 years ago under the liberals and the Conservatives before them. 

Until the Canadian public actually stands up and says "Do something about our forces", the government will continue to treat it as a footnote and continue to ignore the problem. New helicopters,tanks, etc are all well and good, but its to little to late for the people serving in Afghanistan who needed that equipment five years ago...

Theres much finger pointing going on in Ottawa these days, as to who's to blame for our forces demise, but history shows that any Canadian governments past or present are unwilling to spend the money needed to get our forces up to standard. They would much rather throw a few dollars in the pot once in a while just to appease and shut the brass up for a while until the next crisis comes along...And it doesn't take a committee to tell me that.  It's the Canadian way...
 
Flawed Design said:
The CF wastes a lot of money on creature comforts. I'm all for being comfortable but when you buy a ton of new expensive chairs (few hundred dollars each) just because you 'have the money' and the other ones work perfectly fine someone should stop and take a look at how money is allocated. The spend money because you have it mentality should stop.

I have seen and experienced this aot. The unfortunate reality in alot of these cases is that if we dont spend the money this year, we wont get it next year ( and who knows what we will really, really need it for next year). Some of it is poor management throughout the year but government policy often forces the CF to do things it doesnt really need to.
 
This is just food for thought, and bound to attract some different points of view....I think it belongs in this thread, since the topic is about funding & spending.

What do you - as uniformed professionals - think could be done to save money??  Both small costs such as office supplies & administrative costs, as well as money on larger/capital projects??

Also, how do you think we could stretch out existing dollars further??  Any thoughts on continual procurement programs??  (Purchasing equipment throughout the years, instead of a bulk purchase all at once?)

Floor is open...
 
I worked in an OR where there was a constant stationary shortage!  :D

My TOS is up in 2011, any bets if the Forces will be in better shape by then or back on the slide downhill?


 
I think the CF will be in better shape by the time your TOS comes up in 2011...however, any of this is obviously speculation.

With the amount of time that the CF seems to retain equipment, and with a large number of capital contracts coming up - I think 2011 will be an excellent time, as many of the procurement projects on the books now will be coming to fruitition around then.

 
Also, how do you think we could stretch out existing dollars further??  Any thoughts on continual procurement programs??  (Purchasing equipment throughout the years, instead of a bulk purchase all at once?)

I think that "dollar" has been stretched about as far as it's going to go. Unless the government comes up with some real money and when I say real money I don't mean a few billion here and there, I mean some serious money, 20-30 billion, there is no way they can stretch the dollar anymore than what they already have. A good part of DND's budget is already being spent in Afghanistan and that doesn't leave much for the people here at home.

Nickle and diming something just puts a bandage on it until ultimately it will require major surgery and right now our forces needs some major surgery.

(Purchasing equipment throughout the years, instead of a bulk purchase all at once?)

We don't need procurements 20 years from now, we need the equipment, yesterday. Putting of what would of cost us 15 billion today, will cost you 30 billion 5 or 10 years from now. This was the way it was done in the past and look were it got us. Nowhere.
 
My comments here still apply.

The problem, correctly stated by others, is that the CF needs some "real money" - rather a lot of it.

The political reality in Canada is that, on any list used by any polling firm, increased defence spending is at the bottom of Canadians' wish lists. As I have said before, probably too often, Canadians may wear red T shirts on Fridays but they sure do not want to have their national defence or their national defenders compete with their beloved social programmes.


Edit: punctuation
 
There are two “elephants in the room” when one considers Canadian defence spending:

• The first is that we spend about 50% of the budget on personnel; and

• The second is that we spend about 17% of capital (new equipment).

That’s not going to change quickly and it leaves about ⅓ of a $20± billion budget (which is where the budget will be in just a couple of years) ($7 Billion) for Operations and Maintenance (O&M) which means bullets, beans and, above all, fuel – at current market prices.

Most experts agree that a modern, capable military cannot be built unless something like 25% of the budget is spent on capital procurement, year after year after year.

But personnel spending cannot go down because DND is already failing to meet its own expansion targets – it’s hard to retain serving people and attract new ones if we take money away from salaries, benefits and personnel support programmes.

Cutting the O&M budget means, inter alia, fewer flying hours, fewer sailing days, less training ammunition, less fuel and so on – there is a direct impact on training and readiness, In other words we might get a bigger, better equipped force but it would be less well trained. That’s what we call a Hobson’s choice – it’s really no choice at all; no matter what DND or the government as a whole wants to do it is constrained by too little money.

There is an option – about which I have heard bits in the local rumour mills:

1. Keep personnel/personnel support spending level (keeping pace with inflation and getting a ½ share of increases/new money) at about 50%;

2. Grow capital spending incrementally, over about a decade, to roughly 25%; which means

3. Shrinking the O&M share of the budget to 25% by restricting the things DND must fund from within its own programmed allocations to, mainly, training. ALL operations – even domestic operations and SAR – are to be funded by annual supplementary allocations.

This means, essentially, that the DND budget is used to raise, train and equip a force. Any and all use of that force – at home or abroad – must be funded separately, year by year.

I think that some senior people at the political centre in Ottawa (PCO, Finance and TB) are sympathetic to DND’s position that its inability to manage its own affairs is because it cannot predict or control its operational assignments and it is not allowed (by the Govt of Canada’s system) to guesstimate and request contingency funding. There is also, I hear, some suggestion that requiring the government of the day to pay for each and every military adventure operation will impose some much needed policy discipline on working politicians and their back-room strategists.

If such a plan were to be implemented then the Canada First Defence Strategy would make more sense. 

 
Now that makes a whole lot more sense than the current program.........it also puts the CF deployments in the hands of politicians and their reaction to the polls, especially in a minority government.

The one bright point is that "if you don't want us to go there, don't fund us for it" puts the responsibility exactly where it belongs....on the politicians, not the CF.  (Now watch them screw that up too!!.............not sure who them is........but it will get perverted somehow)
 
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=5fbf3e2a-018f-458d-880a-ef474bd31a58

A bipartisan committee of senators says Canada's top generals all have blinders on when it comes to the issue of long-term sustainable funding for the Canadian military.

And they blame Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government for forcing the generals to compliment the government on increases in military spending when, in fact, the senators say, the federal government has set in motion what will amount to decreases in the military's overall operating budget.

"If there ever was a government that was going to put the Canadian military back in its proper place, it was Mr. Harper's government," said Liberal Senator Colin Kenny, the chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defence.

'We've added the numbers up and the numbers simply don't work. The generals are left defending the indefensible,' said Senator Colin Kenny, chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defence. "What we've had instead is these guys underestimating the size of the problem and underestimating the funding." But Defence Minister Peter MacKay immediately rejected the thesis of Mr. Kenny and his committee.

"Liberal Senator Colin Kenny's report is both disingenuous and inflammatory. This report only serves to highlight Senator Kenny's hypocrisy," Mr. MacKay said in an e-mailed statement. "His Liberal party destroyed (Canadian Forces) morale and cut defence spending during what military officials deemed the decade of darkness."

During testimony in June at the Senate defence committee, Gen. Walter Natynczyk, who was named the new chief of defence staff two days after appearing, said nothing but positive things about the funds that Liberal and Conservative governments have set aside over the last five years for development of the Canadian Forces. He noted that after the Liberals' last budget in 2005 and the first Conservative budget in 2006, overall spending on defence had climbed by 30 per cent compared to 2004.

Gen. Natynczyk told the senators it would be a challenge to find ways to spend the new funding allocated to the Forces.
But the report says the committee didn't believe him.

But Senator David Tkachuk, a Conservative who is the deputy chairman of defence committee, disagreed with the majority Liberal view.

"It's really too bad a Senate report is like this because normally it's not and (the Liberals on the committee) have been behaving badly," Mr. Tkachuk said in a telephone interview from Saskatoon. "They're being totally unprofessional. You can't just say (the generals) are lying."

In one part of the report, the committee focuses on a Conservative promise that the Canadian Forces would automatically get a spending increase of 1.5 per cent every year until 2011, followed by a two-per-cent increase every year until 2031.

But Mr. Kenny's committee says inflation alone would eat up those increases in most years.

Indeed, just last week, the Bank of Canada predicted that inflation will be running at around four per cent for much of this year, and will be between two and 3.6 per cent next year. With the Conservatives committed to a funding increase of just 1.5 per cent during that period, the Forces will actually have less money to spend, the senators say.

The senators repeated their call for the government to tie defence spending to a portion of the country's gross domestic product, the sum of all economic activity in the country.

According to the most recent NATO scorecard on defence spending, Canada ranked sixth among members in 2007, spending a combined $18.5 billion on defence. But when spending is compared to the size of each NATO member's national economy, Canada ranked 18th out of 26 members, spending just 1.3 per cent of GDP on defence in 2007. The NATO average is 1.8 per cent.

The Senate committee says the Conservative plan will soon take defence spending below one per cent of GDP.
We'll be ranking after Luxembourg and Iceland, for heaven's sakes!" said Mr. Kenny.

The Senate defence committee, whose members currently include six Liberals and three Conservatives, has been a consistent critic of the Conservative government and previous Liberal ones when it comes to funding the military.

"The Canadian Forces have been underfunded by both Liberal and Conservative governments in the past, they continue to be underfunded now, and they will surely be underfunded with regard to the responsibilities they will be asked to undertake in the future," the report said.

But Mr. Kenny says the Conservatives deserve particular censure for pretending to be the party that was going to set things right, when, according to his committee's research, the military may actually be worse off financially in a few years.

"Canada's military is not in good shape now, and the funding formula the government has set out will put it in worse shape in the future," the report said.
Any ideas on this guys? How right is this bipartisan committee? Why has the government not immediately increased the % of GDP allocated to the CF?
 
CDN Aviator said:
alot of these cases is that if we dont spend the money this year, we wont get it next year

Exactly.

This is absolutely retarded.
ALL this does is encourage people to spend any extra money on stupid useless crap out of fear of having less money next year.

If we started saving money and rolling it over or whateverto the next year then we could ideally "save up" and pay for some serious equipment that we need.

It's like eating everything in your house at the end of the month just so you can spend just as much money buying the same amount of food next month.
 
Flawed Design said:
Exactly.

This is absolutely retarded.
ALL this does is encourage people to spend any extra money on stupid useless crap out of fear of having less money next year.

If we started saving money and rolling it over or whatever to the next year then we could ideally "save up" and pay for some serious equipment that we need.

It's like eating everything in your house at the end of the month just so you can spend just as much money buying the same amount of food next month.

I agree with you both. The problem is if you do not spend the majority of your budget than I see at least two things happening. One the politicians are happy because they can say they've saved money. Some permanent heads will do the best they can to never spend their entire budget in hopes of looking good and advancement. Second, when it comes to budget approval if you did not spend what was allocated to you last year cabinet will ask why not and why do you need as much if not more this year? Based on my limited experience with government budgets we have codes for different stuff. One for staff, etc. but also codes for large purchases  or building new stuff or R&D that will need continued funding for x number of years. I can't imagine the work that's involved in doing up a budget for all the CF but I suspect they either know what to put in their budget request a head of time or are putting in it and it isn't being approved.
 
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