CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Jammer]

We were invited...but politely declined.
They did love borrowing our war/action movies though...go figure.
They weren't to hip to porn..at least that particular platoon.

 

[Loachman]

I can understand how a big steamer in an open field at night nowhere close to a road might be misconstrued. One of my guys using ITASS was famous for that.

That and field irrigation.

"First row fully flooded. Second row twenty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row thirty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row forty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row fifty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row sixty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row seventy percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row eighty percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First row fully flooded. Second row ninety percent flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First and second rows fully flooded. Third to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"First and second rows fully flooded. Third row ten percent flooded. Fourth to fourteenth rows no flooding".

"Roger. Cleared to move on..."

Sometimes, it took a little effort to convince them.

 

[Loachman]

...ahhh, so you saw the glowing left hand after the event on thermal?

Same temperature.

 

[ezbeatz]

And sometime in the not too distant future, you may be sitting in the back of a CH146 and notice a patch on the back of a frontseater's electric hat that says Loachman on it.

I promise to do my best not to criticize your exit technique and suggest improvements.

Look forward to it. 

You had some sound points. It's good to hear.

 

[Loachman]

You had some sound points. It's good to hear.

I should have one or two given the time that I've been doing this, nein?

 

[DocBacon]

FWIW:

I was on course at Bell in the winter, and in spite of being a FN (foriegn national) I was included in a discussion of the systems in the Yankee and Whiskey model variants of the Huey.  Impressive aircraft, especially since they're an extension of a roughly 50 year old product line.

I'm told they've the power capacity to operate in the density altitudes of our current AO with useful loads and endurance, and that the cabin plug (the stretched bit aft of the crew doors) accomodates all the sparky bits where they can be maintained easily and creates more useful volume in the cabin and cockpit.

If push came to shove, and a -146 replacement was required, it would seem to be an option with fewer additional costs than another completely different type.

 

[MarkOttawa]

New navy chopper falls short of endurance requirement for flight time
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/New-navy-chopper-falls-short-of-endurance-requirement-for-flight-time-53599747.html

The Canadian officer who will oversee the first flights of Canada's new fleet of navy helicopters next year says the choppers currently can't pass an endurance test that requires them to fly for nearly three hours in extreme conditions.

"It (the helicopter) falls short of the endurance requirement as allowed under the revised contract," Col. Sam Michaud, commander of Nova Scotia's 12 Wing Shearwater airbase, said in an interview Tuesday.

The MH-92 Cyclone helicopter's original contract had specified that 28 choppers be delivered, at a rate of one per month, beginning in November 2008.

However, a revised contract announced last year allowed for the delivery of the helicopters to begin in November 2010, two years behind schedule. It also doesn't require the choppers to meet the 170-minute flying time until after the 19th helicopter has been delivered in 2012.

But Michaud said he's confident the Cyclones will satisfy the requirement, and that the aging fleet of Sea King helicopters can keep operating until then.

Still, he acknowledges there will be some limits - such as shorter missions and the need to use more helicopters to perform the same mission - until the endurance requirement is met.

"So right now, the issue with the interim maritime helicopters is they're having some challenges getting to that endurance number that we've asked for," said Michaud.

The base commander explained that the helicopter is heavier than originally expected, and as a result fuel is consumed more quickly...

Michaud explained that when the helicopter's operation requirements were written in the 1990s, defence research experts determined the harsher conditions the aircraft would have to endure, and then calculated the periods of time it would have to stay in the air to carry out missions.

"To succeed at that mission, to have a probability of success, you need to be able to fly for two hours and 50 minutes," he said.

He noted that when the helicopter arrives at 12 Wing Shearwater airbase, it will be capable of performing the majority of its missions, as it will be over sea water in cooler air that's considered more dense.

The choppers are considered to be the "eyes and ears" of the navy, and are used to fly missions from Canadian frigates that roam the world. They are also frequently assigned to assist with search and rescue missions.

The Cyclone's design was based on Sikorsky's H-92 civilian helicopter, which is used in the offshore oil industry.

The redesigned, military version has seen the addition of a folding tail and rotors for storage aboard warships, anti-submarine warfare electronics, and a system that allows the aircraft to be flown by computer.

More at The Torch:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/08/cyclone-still-forming-our-interim.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[STONEY]

And will they come with all the gearbox problems that plague the civilian s-92.

The saga continues.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think the info from anyone involved on the CF side of the house won't be *unofficially* put up on this site.  Thats just a guess.  DND will release info to the public via official channels, IMO.

:2c:

 

[newfin]

Eye In the Sky, Since I posted that request for more info I saw The Agenda with Steve Paikin last night on TVO.  Vice Admiral Dean McFadden was being interviewed on there and he stated that Canada would receive its first Cyclone before the end of this year.  So that means in the next two months.  So "soon" means in 2 months or less.

Here's the link to the program:

http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

And will they come with all the gearbox problems that plague the civilian s-92.

The saga continues.

As the majority of them are not yet built, it means that design changes can be implemented quickly and with less cost than retrofitting. Glad they are finding this out now and not in another five years.

 

[beenthere]

I have doubt about anything coming quickly and little doubt that they may try for some funding to implement any changes.

 

[DocBacon]

And will they come with all the gearbox problems that plague the civilian s-92.

The problems that you allude to are resolved by the replacement of the titanium studs retaining the oil filter with stainless steel; apparently this eliminates that issue.  Another issue with the main gearbox is related to cracks in a mount that have reduced the case life to 2700hrs, IIRC - this isn't unusual for a new product and one that will be resolved once an upgrade case is designed.  However, the inability of the gearbox to run dry of oil for even a limited period of time is a bigger problem and one not as likely to be resolved with a quick fix.

Does this mean that the CH-148 will never be a workable replacement for the Sea-King?  I doubt it, but it sure won't help expedite deliveries.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Eye In the Sky, Since I posted that request for more info I saw The Agenda with Steve Paikin last night on TVO.  Vice Admiral Dean McFadden was being interviewed on there and he stated that Canada would receive its first Cyclone before the end of this year.  So that means in the next two months.  So "soon" means in 2 months or less.

Here's the link to the program:

http://www.tvo.org/cfmx/tvoorg/theagenda/

I would consider the VAdm an official source.  I guess the point I was trying to make was, yes, there is info on this known internally (and likely to stay that way).  I, for one, don't want to be the one to put stuff that is coming down from the CoC on this site and then have someone from my CoC come looking for *EITS on Army.ca* and why did EITS say "XYZ" on a public forum.  It is a rather small military we have, afterall.  The annoucements and publicity/media coverage that will happen if/when a Cyclone shows up on the Wing will be at the appropriate level, at the appropriate time.

Watch and shoot.

 

[Edward Campbell]

There may be further delays according to this report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/sikorsky-faces-more-setbacks-in-delivery-of-new-helicopters/article1470533/

Sikorsky faces more setbacks in delivery of new helicopters
Manufacturer unable to live up to revised deal signed in 2008, which would see initial delivery of 28 helicopters this year

Daniel Leblanc

Ottawa

Wednesday, Feb. 17, 2010

There is one more twist in the seemingly never-ending saga of the replacement of Canada's Sea King helicopters.

More than a year after announcing a four-year delay in the long-running project, Sikorsky has just acknowledged that it is facing another setback in the delivery of the first of 28 aircraft.

Details are scarce, but Sikorsky is saying it can't live up to the new schedule that was negotiated with Ottawa 14 months ago, and is unlikely to offer all of the promised equipment in the first round of deliveries.

“Sikorsky has advised the government of Canada of potential delays, and we're working to assess the implications of these potential delays,” said Chris Hilton, a spokesman for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.

According to the initial contract signed in 2004, the Canadian Forces were to begin receiving fully compliant Cyclone CH-148s within four years, by 2008.

However, the government and Sikorsky announced at the end of 2008 that the first maritime helicopters would only come in 2010, and would not meet the full list of specifications in the contract. According to the deal, the first fully compliant helicopters would come in 2012, about eight years after the signing of the contract.

In a recent report, Sikorsky's parent company, United Technologies Corp., said it has launched a new round of discussions with Ottawa regarding the delivery of the first interim helicopters, scheduled for late this year.

“Sikorsky is in discussions with the Canadian government concerning an anticipated delay in completing certain elements of the specification for the interim aircraft,” said UTC's annual report to the Securities and Exchange Commission in the United States.

A spokesman for Sikorsky refused to expand on its production problems. “As a matter of policy, we do not comment on discussions with customers,” Paul Jackson said.

Mr. Hilton, however, said the Harper government “fully expects Sikorsky to live up to its legal obligations.”

Before it awarded the $5-billion contract to Sikorsky in 2004, the government warned that it would impose as much as $36-million in penalties for late deliveries.

However, in the secret deal signed in late 2008 between Ottawa and Sikorsky, the government decided not to collect any of the penalties. In fact, it agreed to pay an extra $117-million to Sikorsky to obtain “leading-edge technology.”

The Conservative government of Brian Mulroney had ordered new helicopters to replace the Sea Kings in 1992, but Liberal prime minister Jean Chrétien cancelled the purchase as soon as he came to office in 1993.

Thank you, Jean Chrétien! You couldn’t resist a bit of cheap, partisan, political theatre. Now our military personnel must fly the ancient, maintenance intensive Sea Kings for an even longer period.

 

[KingKikapu]

Sigh

Someone please tell me the project manager on Sirkorsky's side has been canned by now.

Unforgivable.

 

[Dog]

Should have just gone with the already-produced SeaHawk and been done with it.... but that would be too easy, and make WAY too much sense.

 

[aesop081]

Should have just gone with the already-produced SeaHawk and been done with it.... but that would be too easy, and make WAY too much sense.

:

Nope. Not even close. If you need a 3/4 ton truck, you dont buy a Ford Fiesta.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Take a look at the end of this Torch post:

New (someday) maritime helicopter: Cyclone deliveries continue to go counter-clockwise
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2010/02/new-someday-maritime-helicopter-cyclone.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

:

Nope. Not even close. If you need a 3/4 ton truck, you dont buy a Ford Fiesta.

Well that's exactly what the US Coast Guard did, their helo's are so small, often they have to leave  their rescue swimmer behind in the water to carry survivors.