CH47 Chinook

[Robert0288]

CTV news clip: "http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.1343982"

 

[Edward Campbell]

I was thinking about the last Liberal era. Ok lets look at who had the most successful procurement programs record?

Our "golden age" was a mix of St Laurent, Diefenbaker and Pearson; Canada built a modern, for its day, Navy, Army and Air Force from about 1950 through 1970. The plans were all made in M. St Laurent's time but the projects - ships, army systems and aircraft - stretched through both the Diefenbaker and Pearson governments. I would call the CP-140 progamme, which was a Trudeau era programme, the very tail end of the "rebuild" because it replaced that last major World War II system - Lancasters flying ASW missions.

 

[je suis prest]

Actually I believe the CP-140 replaced the Argus and Neptune, not the Lancaster - although there were Lancs in service until the early sixties.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

The Aurora's only replaced the Argus. It was to replace the Argus and the Trackers, but those last ones survived by being switched from ASW to ASUW sovereignty and surveillance patrol, often in support of pollution control and fisheries patrols.

 

[Old Sweat]

Actually I believe the CP-140 replaced the Argus and Neptune, not the Lancaster - although there were Lancs in service until the early sixties.

You are correct. The Lancasters were used to gather photographic data to map the north. In 1963 the Army ran a two brigade exercise in Gagetown as part of its anti-tank study. The scheme wasn't very long, but it was intense, hence its name - TRIBULATION. I was on it and remember getting my butt reamed by the CO for being unshaven at 1000 hrs after having done five or six battery moves between first light and when he caught me. Ayway, at designated points the controllers would order "Stand Fast" and everyone would freeze. We did not really freeze, we dropped in our tracks and everyone excepted radio sentries, etc slept. Anyway, then a Lancaster would appear, heralded by the magnificent drone of its four Merlins, and photograph the exercise area for later use by the operstional research folks. As far as I know that was almost the last appearance of the Lancaster.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Actually I believe the CP-140 replaced the Argus and Neptune, not the Lancaster - although there were Lancs in service until the early sixties.

Yes, you're quite right. So it was the army's major tracked vehicle projects M113, M109 etc, purchased in the 1960s, that completed the post war transformation of the CF.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually my bad in part here.

I just checked again and it appears that 404 Squadron in Greenwood flew the last Neptune's for training until they were replaced directly by the Auroras and Arcturus. Only 405 and 407 Squadrons, replaced all their Neptune's with Argus' first and then their Argus with Auroras and Arcturus.

 

[HB_Pencil]

How to run a procurement program.......Funny things seem to work when the Liberals have not been involved.

I wouldn't consider the Chinook model acquisition. First, there was little in the way of operational analysis or detailed requirement to purchase a heavy lift helicopter. Its a Hillier driven purchase, and it shows.  There were other options available that might have suited our needs better... we could have gone to Merlin for example. Instead we're going to shoulder operating a small fleet without any pressing requirement for them... its somewhat reminiscent of the situation when we got rid of them the first time.

Then we took a relatively inexpensive off the shelf purchase and gold plated it in order to make it useful. This meant adding additional fuel tanks instead of an internal fuel bladder commonly used in Afghanistan. That decision basically increased the unit cost by 50~70%.

 

[George Wallace]

I wouldn't consider the Chinook model acquisition. First, there was little in the way of operational analysis or detailed requirement to purchase a heavy lift helicopter. Its a Hillier driven purchase, and it shows.  There were other options available that might have suited our needs better... we could have gone to Merlin for example. Instead we're going to shoulder operating a small fleet without any pressing requirement for them... its somewhat reminiscent of the situation when we got rid of them the first time.

Was there any other aircraft avail that could meet the requirements?  Were there any other aircraft avail that could meet the requirements and have crews and technicians trained up in a timely manner?  Was there another aircraft that had a reliable supply chain for spare and replacement parts?  Was there another aircraft avail that could be fitted with the sensitive equip that our neighbour to the South is kind enough to let us access, but no others?

You made the comment; "Somewhat reminiscent of the situation when we got rid of them", which luckily for us, still left us with some qualified crew and technicians still in the CF and capable to fly and maintain them. 

Then we took a relatively inexpensive off the shelf purchase and gold plated it in order to make it useful. This meant adding additional fuel tanks instead of an internal fuel bladder commonly used in Afghanistan. That decision basically increased the unit cost by 50~70%.

Do we want an inflight refueller or a troop/cargo lift aircraft?  Seems to me that additional external tanks allows us to operate our aircraft over longer distances ( so often seen in CANADA ) and carry a full compliment of troops or cargo without having to be retrofitted for every mission. 

By the way; do I smell a "hate on for Hillier" in your comments above and a sense that he was not acting in the best interest of our troops in Afghanistan?  Afghanistan called for some fast and furious decision making.  The Chinook was one of them.  I suppose now, you would like to damn the decision to purchase Leopard 2 tanks as well.  :
What other "Hillier decisions" do you want to condemn?

 

[Jammer]

George....General Rick advocated getting rid of tanks. His choice was the MGS to have Bdes more in line with US Stryker BCTs.

The tanks made it to us in Afg because we had no large DFS. It was determined by the Gen Walt and the Army Comd that there was still very much a place for MBTs in the force , besides. I liked seeing them blow up bad guys.

HB: The EH-101 is not a heavy lift helo: Canada specifiacally requires that capacity as stated.

The original fleet of CH-147Cs were 9 spread over 3 Sqns across the country. We will now have 18 all centeredi in one Sqn, therefore eliminating a split supply chain.

Why do you think there is no requirement for them? Clearly you have no knowledge of how they can be employed.

The Cormorant fleet is less than the Chinook fleet and they are spread all over the country...supply chain split.

The CH-147F is not gold plated. It is actually the same version used by the US Army SOF community but without the in flight refuelling probe.

Do a little research HB, otherwise you come off looking quite ridiculous.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I suspect that the need for the Chinooks (and C-17's, C130J) will find us because we have them. Future missions, UN or otherwise are going to happen because we have 3 capable fleets of new aircraft with significant capability.

 

[OldSolduer]

I wouldn't consider the Chinook model acquisition. First, there was little in the way of operational analysis or detailed requirement to purchase a heavy lift helicopter. Its a Hillier driven purchase, and it shows.  There were other options available that might have suited our needs better... we could have gone to Merlin for example. Instead we're going to shoulder operating a small fleet without any pressing requirement for them... its somewhat reminiscent of the situation when we got rid of them the first time.

Then we took a relatively inexpensive off the shelf purchase and gold plated it in order to make it useful. This meant adding additional fuel tanks instead of an internal fuel bladder commonly used in Afghanistan. That decision basically increased the unit cost by 50~70%.

I flew  in some of our original Chinooks. They were a capable proven platform, that could do a number of things. Also consider
the fact that during th Falklands war one Chinook set a recorde for tonnage hauled by a helicopter in 24 hours.

I'd say the Chinook was a wise choice.

But I am infantry....so what do I know?

 

[observor 69]

Actually my bad in part here.

I just checked again and it appears that 404 Squadron in Greenwood flew the last Neptune's for training until they were replaced directly by the Auroras and Arcturus. Only 405 and 407 Squadrons, replaced all their Neptune's with Argus' first and then their Argus with Auroras and Arcturus.

Neptune 24120 of the RCAF's Maritime Air Command served from 30 March, 1955 until the entirety of the 25 Aircraft fleet was struck off strength on 31 July, 1968. Neptunes initially equipped 404 and 405 Maritime Patrol Squadrons operating out of RCAF Station Greenwood, Nova Scotia and the Maitime Proving and Evaluation Unit also out of Greenwood and later out of RCAF Station Summerside, P.E.I. Once the Canadair Argus started becoming available for squadron use, the Neptunes were sent to equip 407 Maritime Patrol Squadron on the west coast while the Argus was being used to equip the east coast squadrons. Eventually this process of upgrading led to 407 Squadron also being equipped with the new Argus and the RCAF retiring their Neptune fleet altogether.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/v2/equip/hst/neptune-eng.asp

 

[Loachman]

George....General Rick advocated getting rid of tanks. His choice was the MGS to have Bdes more in line with US Stryker BCTs.

I believe that the government-approved choice was them or nothing. I doubt that they would have been his first choice otherwise.

The original fleet of CH-147Cs were 9 spread over 3 Sqns across the country. We will now have 18 all centeredi in one Sqn, therefore eliminating a split supply chain.

We never had nine. The original purchase was eight. The first crashed en route from the factory, and all on board were killed.

Another burned with the loss of three lives and serious injuries to the three survivors when its rear rotor blades struck a wooden light pole while it was taxiing towards a fuel point up north many years ago.

They were located in two places, Ottawa and Edmonton, and originally with one Squadron (450 Squadron). 450 Squadron's western det subsequently became 447 Squadron. There was never a third Chinook Squadron in the CF.

We will now have 18 all centeredi in one Sqn,

Fifteen.

Why do you think there is no requirement for them?

By earlier and more realistic doctrine, there was a continual need at Brigade level for light helicopters for reconnaissance and fire direction and an occasional requirement for utility and attack. There was a continual requirement for utility and attack at Div level, and an occasional requirement for medium transport (Chinook). The continual requirement for medium transport came in at Corps level.

So.....

This is largely an Afghanistanism as far as I am concerned. Their usefulness in a more traditional peer-versus-peer conflict would be much reduced.

However, given the size of this Country and many of the things that we do, there is a need for these things regardless.

We will once again write doctrine to suit our equipment rather than buy equipment to suit our doctrine.

And there will be plans made to fight the next war like the last one.

Do a little research HB, otherwise you come off looking quite ridiculous.

Ummmmmmmm..........

 

[HB_Pencil]

Was there any other aircraft avail that could meet the requirements?

There was consideration given within the DND on alternatives, because this was a costly purchase and there were alternatives available. The  requirements were basically set to be only heavy lift (CH-47) at Hillier's request. That killed any possibility of looking at alternative force structures.

Were there any other aircraft avail that could meet the requirements and have crews and technicians trained up in a timely manner? Was there another aircraft that had a reliable supply chain for spare and replacement parts?

Merlin is a AW-101 derivative, which we already operate in the Comorant. So it would have been easier to get technicians for that helicopter than for a type we didn't operate anymore. And the supplier relationship already exists. The other option was to go with the H-92, which was less capable of the two.

Do we want an inflight refueller or a troop/cargo lift aircraft?  Seems to me that additional external tanks allows us to operate our aircraft over longer distances ( so often seen in CANADA ) and carry a full compliment of troops or cargo without having to be retrofitted for every mission. 

I completely agree that having those bells and whistles are useful, but when you're paying nearly double the basic model flyaway cost, there must be grounds to question the utility it provides at that cost.... especially when there is an alternative that can provide some or most of the capability required at a lower costs.

By the way; do I smell a "hate on for Hillier" in your comments above and a sense that he was not acting in the best interest of our troops in Afghanistan?  Afghanistan called for some fast and furious decision making.  The Chinook was one of them.  I suppose now, you would like to damn the decision to purchase Leopard 2 tanks as well.  :
What other "Hillier decisions" do you want to condemn?

I don't have a hate on for Hillier in the least... Hiller did what he had to do in his situation. Absolutely he got critical equipment into the field in a timely manner and I commend him for that. He was also instrumental in improving the forces However that doesn't mean I have to love or agree with every one of his decisions. His get things done approach works well in some circumstances, but not others where careful analysis and consideration could have yielded better results.

Want an alternate scenario? Lets consider going with the Merlin. We get a helicopter with 50~60% of the capacity, but at about half of the upfront cost. So  we're less capable in the field with smaller medium lift helicopters, but we double our operational fleet size and standardize around one common airframe with all the advantages that go with it. And they were seen as being significant.

Is that realistic? I don't know because the analysis was never fully considered. And that's what I'm interested in for case. Saying it must be a heavy lift helicopter of X type and no other basically locked us into a choice we're now paying for and will have to sustain on a potentially shrinking budget.

Why is considering this important? During the 1990s we saw our combat capability get gutted due to budget cutbacks, just like with the US Army right now. If we go through additional cutbacks, this capability will be a big target because of its high operational costs. I completely understand the operational need for it... and I agree the Chinook is a phenomenal capability. However if Canada goes through another round of defence cutbacks in the future, this will be one of the capabilities that will be considered. Had it been put on a more affordable basis its risk would be significantly less.

 

[dapaterson]

Given the challenges in identifying PY offsets for the relatively small squadron in Petawawa, I doubt there would have been the appetite to find sufficient positions to support a larger fleet - what would the CAF stop doing to fly even more helicopters?

There's already a huge delta between PY demand and PY availability in the medium term; buying more medium helicopters would have worsened that gap.

 

[Zoomie]

Given the challenges in identifying PY offsets for the relatively small squadron in Petawawa

(Emphasis mine)
15 tails is by no means small.  I would wager that 450 Sqn would top out one of the larger RCAF squadrons in current existence.

 

[dapaterson]

(Emphasis mine)
15 tails is by no means small.  I would wager that 450 Sqn would top out one of the larger RCAF squadrons in current existence.

Small in PY demand, not number of tails.

 

[tomahawk6]

Canadian Defense Minister Peter MacKay (R) shakes hands with a pilot from the Royal Canadian Air Force during the unveiling of new CH-147F Chinook helicopters in Ottawa June 27, 2013.

 

[Jammer]

There was consideration given within the DND on alternatives, because this was a costly purchase and there were alternatives available. The  requirements were basically set to be only heavy lift (CH-47) at Hillier's request. That killed any possibility of looking at alternative force structures.

Merlin is a AW-101 derivative, which we already operate in the Comorant. So it would have been easier to get technicians for that helicopter than for a type we didn't operate anymore. And the supplier relationship already exists. The other option was to go with the H-92, which was less capable of the two.

I completely agree that having those bells and whistles are useful, but when you're paying nearly double the basic model flyaway cost, there must be grounds to question the utility it provides at that cost.... especially when there is an alternative that can provide some or most of the capability required at a lower costs.

I don't have a hate on for Hillier in the least... Hiller did what he had to do in his situation. Absolutely he got critical equipment into the field in a timely manner and I commend him for that. He was also instrumental in improving the forces However that doesn't mean I have to love or agree with every one of his decisions. His get things done approach works well in some circumstances, but not others where careful analysis and consideration could have yielded better results.

Want an alternate scenario? Lets consider going with the Merlin. We get a helicopter with 50~60% of the capacity, but at about half of the upfront cost. So  we're less capable in the field with smaller medium lift helicopters, but we double our operational fleet size and standardize around one common airframe with all the advantages that go with it. And they were seen as being significant.

Is that realistic? I don't know because the analysis was never fully considered. And that's what I'm interested in for case. Saying it must be a heavy lift helicopter of X type and no other basically locked us into a choice we're now paying for and will have to sustain on a potentially shrinking budget.

Why is considering this important? During the 1990s we saw our combat capability get gutted due to budget cutbacks, just like with the US Army right now. If we go through additional cutbacks, this capability will be a big target because of its high operational costs. I completely understand the operational need for it... and I agree the Chinook is a phenomenal capability. However if Canada goes through another round of defence cutbacks in the future, this will be one of the capabilities that will be considered. Had it been put on a more affordable basis its risk would be significantly less.

It's all "what if" now HB.
We're getting them now and I'm sure they'll follow the tradition of most RCAF aircraft of being in very high demand most of the time. The clerks at 450 Sqn are going to be processing a lot of TS claims...