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China Builds a Hi-Tech "Army Within an Army" - Christian Science Monitor

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A pretty good article- http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1117/p01s03-woap.html?s=u2

Excerpt

"In a surprisingly short time, China has accomplished two feats. One, it has focused its energy and wealth on creating an army within an army. It has devoted huge amounts of capital to create a small high-tech army within its old 2.2 million-member rifle and shoe-leather force.

The specialty of this modern force, about 15 percent of the PLA, is to conduct lightning attacks on smaller foes, using an all-out missile attack designed to paralyze, and a modern sea and air attack coordinated by high-tech communications. In other words, this new modern force is designed to attack Taiwan.

Second, China has taken painful but successful steps to create a "defense industrial base," or weapons-building capability. The PLA has improved its factory quality control and its ability to adapt foreign technology. It is bringing an indigenous small-wing F-10 fighter off the production line, and it is moving rapidly toward a "blue water" Navy with ships built in China."


Comment
As noted further down in the article, it seems Chinese military ambitions have now moved beyond Taiwan and are much broader in regional and perhaps even hemispheric scope with a view towards achieving some sort of very broad military dominance including conventional and tactical nuclear dominance over the United States within the Chinese AoI.   In particular, the hi-tech army within an army seems to be equipping itself for the very purpose of engaging and defeating American carrier battle groups and tactical air forces.

From what I see of this, the author of the article has not done a good job of explaining how the Chinese plan to deal with the inevitable swarming of their own BG's and coastlines by USN SSN's, unless of course the Russians sign on. I still think the US could take them on within the region, but not at the doorstep to China. Still, I agree that it could happen:

"Historically, in fact, China is not an aggressor. It rarely attacks. But then, what is called "China" has moved only in the late 20th century from a sprawling "civilization" to a nation in the modern sense. Moreover, the sense of national pride in China is powerful. As one rather liberal intellectual told the Monitor, "In our hearts, most of us want China to be great - we feel deeply a desire to help run Asia and the world."

What concerns some American China experts is that creating a modern army will also create the dynamic to use a modern army. Analysts like Mulvenon point to possible unintended consequences of a buildup."


 
I might show some concern if they were focusing specifically on amphibious forces.  Without these, they have no chance of actually invading Taiwan, even after a large scale missile attack.  Building up their Navy however, could lead to uncontested control of the local area, which could allow them to build up amphibious assets at their leisure.

Also, building up to possibly defend against or even attack a US Carrier group doesnt surprise me.  If you can, why not prepare to go up against the toughest carrier group?  Makes sense to prepare to take on the best in whatever field you are in.
 
It seems to me that they dont necessarily have any intent to attack or go to war with anyone, but the Chinese have a strong ambition to be #1 at everything, including military power... which would include overpowering the United States.

Not that I dont find it slightly disconcerning that someone other than our greatest ally is deciding to be a world super military power, the best on the planet, but it would be a different scenario if this was North Korea or Iran acting this way.



Another reason could also just be a detterrent.... if the Chinese military is strong enough to counter the united states, maybe they think that the US would think twice about coming to the aid of taiwan, should there be an invasion if the chinese were so powerful ?

The americans could defeat them now, but what if in 10 years the Chinese were just overwhelming?
 
Could the US stall a chinese advance and cripple them? For sure. Could they actually defeat them? Remember that the invasion of Japan was cancelled in favor of an alternative strike. They thought a troop landing would be too costly. Could they now afford going in and defeat the chinese, I ask again? Especially now, with so many troops commited in Iraq and all.

And besides Tom Clancy novels, do we know for sure China is not building any amphibious capability?

I am not an expert, but I am keeping an eye on China.
 
Dissident said:
Could the US stall a chinese advance and cripple them? For sure. Could they actually defeat them? Remember that the invasion of Japan was cancelled in favor of an alternative strike. They thought a troop landing would be too costly. Could they now afford going in and defeat the chinese, I ask again? Especially now, with so many troops commited in Iraq and all.

And besides Tom Clancy novels, do we know for sure China is not building any amphibious capability?

I am not an expert, but I am keeping an eye on China.

I think many of us are, and ive been holding my breath since that spy plane incident a while back.
There is no doubt that China is gearing its military for a specific mission: Invade and capture taiwan, with the ability to repel any US counterattack.

Thats what they seem to want, and theyll be damned if they dont have their cake and eat it too.
 
"And besides Tom Clancy novels, do we know for sure China is not building any amphibious capability?"

There is no way to know for sure, and I actually Tom Clancy sparked my research on the subject.  From what I have found, and through discussions with family members in various militaries with eyes on China, they do have amphibious forces, but not enough for a feasible invasion.  The number of amphibious trained units is fairly small, and equipped units is even smaller.  The other problem was naval support for amphibs but they seem to be working on that by building the navy up.  I wouldnt be surprised if they did develop amphibious forces, but right now they just dont have enough, and what they have is mostly second rate.  SO far, if they took on what Taiwan has, they would probably lose many man, land few, and those would be swept up pretty quickly.  With US asistance, that is a certainty.......but that may be changing.
 
K_Johnston said:
"And besides Tom Clancy novels, do we know for sure China is not building any amphibious capability?"

There is no way to know for sure, and I actually Tom Clancy sparked my research on the subject.   From what I have found, and through discussions with family members in various militaries with eyes on China, they do have amphibious forces, but not enough for a feasible invasion.   The number of amphibious trained units is fairly small, and equipped units is even smaller.   The other problem was naval support for amphibs but they seem to be working on that by building the navy up.   I wouldnt be surprised if they did develop amphibious forces, but right now they just dont have enough, and what they have is mostly second rate.   SO far, if they took on what Taiwan has, they would probably lose many man, land few, and those would be swept up pretty quickly.   With US asistance, that is a certainty.......but that may be changing.

Do you still think that would happen, despite massive chinese air and naval bombardment before the invasion?
Why couldnt they just send troops in out of aircraft along with an amphibious assault in a d-day style invasion? China's biggest obstacles are getting men on the ground, and keeping the US out of the way.... theyve always rattled sabres about taiwan, but with all the latest progress in seeming to specialize in this kind of attack, I think they intend what they say.
 
Mack674 said:
Do you still think that would happen, despite massive chinese air and naval bombardment before the invasion?
Why couldnt they just send troops in out of aircraft along with an amphibious assault in a d-day style invasion? China's biggest obstacles are getting men on the ground, and keeping the US out of the way.... theyve always rattled sabres about taiwan, but with all the latest progress in seeming to specialize in this kind of attack, I think they intend what they say.

You bring up some very good points, but even a landing by a nation as technologically advanced as the US would be very difficult to achieve, and somewhat un realistic.  If China gets more amphibious forces, I would say it would become a probably victory, but with the number they have now....not so much.  Air and naval bombardments are good against larger targets, not individual squads of infantry.  AA battaries and missiles can be disguised, and some man-portable AA would have an easy time taking a transport out of the air, especially one slowed down a bit more by the extra weight of Airborne forces.  A Tow missile launcher can conceivable be carried and hidden by two soldiers alone, and there are a ton of one man Anti-Armour weapons to use against amphibious forces.  An Anti-ship missile can be mounted on and fired from a small truck.  While bombardment before hand would be essential, many infantry will survive to bring their weapons on the enemy (example being WWII).

Maybe their best chance would be a small special forces insertion (probably about a company of men), either by sea or HALO jump, to take out the AA defenses in one area.  With this done, helicopters can bring in troops very quickly, airborne assaults are possible with lesser loss.  With those aditional troops on the ground, they can start assaulting inland, while leaving some to go back to shore to take out anti-ship missiles and weaken and pin the defenders for a amphibious assault..........against technological opponents, there really is so easy strategy.

But really I could say anything, find ways to defend against it and it doesnt mean much.  Being able to defend against it is one thing, being ready to, and the characteristics of each individual soldier, sailor, and airman decided the battle and the losses.
 
Well the Chinese have so many ******* soldiers.... they could lose 150,000 thousand in the invasion and not be phased by it one bit.
Theres still 2 million where that come from!

As far as I know (correct me if im wrong) they use russian style tactics..... charge with a crapload of troops and overwhelm the enemy with numbers and firepower.

I don't think that taking many casualties is a very big concern of theirs, not only in statistically, but culturally. In history, the asian nations like korea, japan and vietnam were very less concerned about how many men they would lose, but whether they would win the battle or not.

Conserving as many troops as possible is a western idea and practice.
Canada, literally does not even have enough ammunition to shoot every soldier in the chinese military....
 
True.  I should have clarified more.  They may have basically an endless source or reinforments to draw from, but they have a limited number of amphibious vehicles, landing craft and such.  If you lose those, you lose your ability to land troops and bring in those reinforcements......although once you have a beackhead I guess you could always fall back on helicopters to ferry in reinforcements.  A combination of amphibious and airborne forces such as you suggested has a better chance, but there is still a limited number of transport aircraft, and limited space for them to fly in.  Even if you dont care how many troops you lose, you still dont want to drop one paratrooper literally on top of the other.....funny as it might look.
 
I suppose thats true as well.... they do indeed lack the necessary hardware to move any massive amounts of troops...... so really it doesnt matter how many they have if they can only land x amount of soldiers at a time.

However, if they had 150 C-130s flying over taiwan dropping platoons of soldiers all over the place, and craploads of landing craft landing after a massive 8 hour bombardment, im inclined to think it would be more than taiwan could handle.... If I were the chinese, and im certain theyve had more experience and time to think about this than i have, I would attack from every possible direction with every possible soldier going full auto.

You're guaranteed to land a few footholds that way..... unless im overlooking the fact that taiwan is an island fortress, but I havnt ever heard of that being the case... I  always thought the major deterrent for China was the likely involvement of the United States?
 
Well, I've been saying as much for the last couple of years, so it's not exactly news. Heck, the US has been doing the exact same thing, no? One thing: The Sovremmy is not Chinese, it's Russian, and built in like 1985 or some such to boot. Not exactly cutting edge stuff, but still the biggest ship in the Chinese Navy. I imagine Canada still outstrips China in terms of warship buidling capacity, if not quite in actual naval power.

Any invasion of Taiwan will make D-Day look like a small commando raid. I doubt that the US could pull it off. 

Although I imagine the Indonesians/Malaysians/Vietnamese will probably think twice now before starting a new ethnic cleansing campaign against their Chinese minorities.

 
"Conserving as many troops as possible is a western idea and practice."

- And a very recent one, at that.  Perhaps a transient one as well.

"Although I imagine the Indonesians/Malaysians/Vietnamese will probably think twice now before starting a new ethnic cleansing campaign against their Chinese minorities"

- Well, these cats - the Chinese - originally thousands of years ago put into script strategies we purport to be influenced by today.  No surprise they may still regard military power as an instrument of influence, if not actually immenent violence.

Their ducks may not be all lined up in a row just yet.  Notwithstanding their vast investment in US securities and dollars, provoking the USA at this point may result in loss of trading status.  China would suffer an economic shock, and even China can't put 60,000,000 wife-less men in the military overnight, so....civil war.

The only thing that would force them to risk civil war on the mainland by attacking Taiwan  at this point would be the one threat so great to China that even the threat of the USA pales in signifigance - that would be any threat to the existance of THE PARTY.  Only a threat to the Party would cause a "Chinese Falklands" at this point.

And if THAT did not go well...

Tom

 
and it was built with good, cheap, plentiful BC softwood..... :warstory:
 
One thing I would be curious to discover is if Chinese logistics capabilities have evolved to support this "Army inside the Army". In WWII, the German Panzer divisions were the high tech cutting edge, but were also backed by hundreds of divisions of Infantry, most relying on horse drawn wagons for support. German logistics became the Archille's heel of their war effore, they simply could not produce or supply the quantity of fuel, munitions or other supplies in the quantities required to prosecute an offensive war on such a scale.

The other problem is the Chinese might become overspecialized in an attempt to neutralize Carrier Battle Groups, meaning the United States could "blind side" them through some other means, even if they are defeated at sea. Imagine the chaos if the Chinese electrical grid goes down in Shanghai and Hong Kong.....
 
Well, China doesn't have any real enemies this day and age on its land borders, so I'm not sure how relevent the German comparison is. The PLA's original mission was to defeat the 100 Soviet divisions massed on China's northern border, drawing them into China and bleeding them dry in Stalingrad type city battles. If you visit Beijing today, be sure to check out the huge underground shopping malls. They were all built in the 60s for just such an occasion. So if you mean logistics within China, they're not doing to bad. But if you mean sending guys half way across the world like we do, it's a little different. The new doctrine is still defensive in nature, just trading mobility for numbers. 
 
Had a good half-in-jest conversation the other day where I suggested the new Chinese cargo ship building program pair up with the 60,000,000 wife-less military age men and deposit both on the coast of Vancouver island some night. 

Steve MacQueen and a Browning Automatic Rifle won't solve THAT little predicament.

On the plus side, the girls at UVic would fill their dance cards fairly quickly...

Tom
 
Britney, I'm going to point out that China has attacked just about every single neighbor they have in the past, what, 100 years?

While more recently, the PLA was pointed at stopping the big bear from the north, the PLA's original mission was to spread Maoist revolution by way of violence.

I don't think we should forget that when we talk about them raising their military capabilities.

DF
 
Britney, I'm going to point out that China has attacked just about every single neighbor they have in the past, what, 100 years?

Oh really? That's certainly news to me.

So from the year 1905, how many wars of agression has China partaken? Perhaps you could give some examples? The only kinda-sorta agressive war I can think of off is Vietnam in 1979. I'd be interested in hearing what you've discovered. Although just off the top of my head, I can point out that in the last 110 years China has been invaded by almost every single one of the European powers except Lichtenstein and at least once by the US, Japan alone has invaded China no less than 4 times, and all of them ending with tremendous brutality. Heck,  how many of China's neighbours HASN'T tried to invade in the last 100 years? Depending on if you count India as an independent country or not, probably 3 or 4?

So, yeah, I can understand why they're a little worried about this kind of thing.



While more recently, the PLA was pointed at stopping the big bear from the north, the PLA's original mission was to spread Maoist revolution by way of violence.

Oh really?  And where, may I ask, have they made a serious effort at this? I suppose supplying arms to the communist insurgency in Malaysia during the 50s was, kinda-sorta, but come on.

I don't think we should forget that when we talk about them raising their military capabilities.

Well I seem to have forgotten most of the points you made, why don't you enlighten me?
 
What the heck are you two doing awake at this time of night?

Interesting article in the Sat Nat Post by Sondra Gottlieb comparing the China she got to see in the 70s with the China she got to see this year.   Too much too fast?

Interesting times, indeed.

Tom



 
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