Oldgateboatdriver
Army.ca Veteran
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Canadian.Trucker said:
Doesn't that mean your a kick returner who may also be used as a ball carrier from the backfield?
Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread
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Doesn't that mean your a kick returner who may also be used as a ball carrier from the backfield?
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Not sure, but I make one heck of a tackle dummy.Oldgateboatdriver said:
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Yes. I was referring to the the Chinese Naval practice.Oldgateboatdriver said:
It seemed like a logical move given the discussion of a Chinese vessel in a Chinese thread.
But thanks for playing along. :
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Journeyman said:
I think it is a training ship; the Chinese have, as others have mentioned, a lot of learning to do. This old ship will, I suspect, be used to train both aviators and ship handlers while the Chinese decide what sort (sorts?) of carriers they need.
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The original article also mentioned employment for scientific research. ??
Either way, the old Soviet Varyag has come a long way since purchased by a Hong Kong travel agency at a Ukrainian auction.
Either way, the old Soviet Varyag has come a long way since purchased by a Hong Kong travel agency at a Ukrainian auction.
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E.R. Campbell said:The 'new' Chinese carrier:
China's first aircraft carrier, which was renovated from an old aircraft carrier
that China bought from Ukraine in 1998, is seen docked at Dalian Port, in
Dalian, Liaoning province Sept 22, 2012.
PHOTO: REUTERS
Photo courtesy The Sunday Straits Times
But... but... the buyers promised they were going to convert it into a floating casino off Macau. Don't tell me that a government intelligence agency would lie to procure military materiel.
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Last year China leaked the news that it is building (at least) two new carriers in a Shanghai yard.
I have found two picture which look, to my old soldier's eyes, like quite different types of ships:
Source: China Military Report Source: Arab News
Are the two picture of the same ship? Maybe I just cannot see the "ski jump" on the first image, or did the two news thread just recycle "stock" images?
I have found two picture which look, to my old soldier's eyes, like quite different types of ships:
Source: China Military Report Source: Arab News
Are the two picture of the same ship? Maybe I just cannot see the "ski jump" on the first image, or did the two news thread just recycle "stock" images?
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Not remotely the same. The top picture has the lines of a USN Kittyhawk-class CV, and the bottom one is most definitely the Varyag/Liaoning. I'd vote for "stock images"
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Guy St Jacques is a good choice to be Ambassador in Beijing: experienced, speaks Mandarin, known as a superb diplomat, etc. The Chinese will be (only very slightly) disappointed, I suspect; they might have preferred a political appointee signalling more direct access to the PMO. But St Jacques will serve us well - and China, too - in trade negotiations by keeping the message clear and consistent.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/26/world/asia/china-shows-off-an-aircraft-carrier-but-experts-are-skeptical.html?_r=0
China Launches Carrier, but Experts Doubt Its Worth
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: September 25, 2012
BEIJING — In a ceremony attended by the country’s top leaders, China put its first aircraft carrier into service on Tuesday, a move intended to signal its growing military might as tensions escalate between Beijing and its neighbors over islands in nearby seas.
Officials said the carrier, a discarded vessel bought from Ukraine in 1998 and refurbished by China, would protect national sovereignty, an issue that has become a touchstone of the government’s dispute with Japan over ownership of islands in the East China Sea.
But despite the triumphant tone of the launching, which was watched by President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, and despite rousing assessments by Chinese military experts about the importance of the carrier, the vessel will be used only for training and testing for the foreseeable future.
The mark “16” on the carrier’s side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese and other military experts said. China does not have planes capable of landing on the carrier and so far training for such landings has been carried out on land, they said.
Even so, the public appearance of the carrier at the northeastern port of Dalian was used as an occasion to stir patriotic feelings, which have run at fever pitch in the last 10 days over the dispute between China and Japan over the East China Sea islands, called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China.
The carrier will “raise the overall operational strength of the Chinese Navy” and help China “to effectively protect national sovereignty, security and development interests,” the Ministry of Defense said.
The Communist Party congress that will begin the country’s once-in-a-decade leadership transition is expected to be held next month, and the public unveiling of the carrier appeared to be part of an effort to forge national unity ahead of the event.
For international purposes, the public unveiling of the carrier seemed intended to signal to smaller nations in the South China Sea, including the Philippines, an American ally, that China has an increasing number of impressive assets to deploy.
American military planners have played down the significance of the commissioning of the carrier. Some Navy officials have even said they would encourage China to move ahead with building its own aircraft carrier and the ships to accompany it, because it would be a waste of money.
Other military experts outside China have agreed with that assessment.
“The fact is the aircraft carrier is useless for the Chinese Navy,” You Ji, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, said in an interview. “If it is used against America, it has no survivability. If it is used against China’s neighbors, it’s a sign of bullying.”
Vietnam, a neighbor with whom China has fought wars, operates land-based Russian Su-30 aircraft that could pose a threat to the aircraft carrier, Mr. You said. “In the South China Sea, if the carrier is damaged by the Vietnamese, it’s a huge loss of face,” he said. “It’s not worth it.”
Up to now, Chinese pilots have been limited to practicing simulated carrier landings on concrete strips on land in Chinese J-8 aircraft based on Soviet-made MIG-23s produced about 25 years ago, Mr. You said. The pilots could not undertake the difficult maneuver of landing on a moving carrier because China does not yet have suitable aircraft, Mr. You said.
The question of whether China will move ahead and build its own carrier depends in large part, he said, on whether China can develop aircraft to land on one. “It’s a long, long process for constructing such aircraft,” he said.
In contrast to some of the skepticism expressed by military experts outside China, Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute, said in an interview in the state-run People’s Daily that the carrier would change the Chinese Navy’s traditional mind-set and bring qualitative changes to its operational style and structure, he said.
Although the Chinese military does not publish a breakdown of its military spending, foreign military experts say the navy is less well financed than the army and air force.
China Launches Carrier, but Experts Doubt Its Worth
By JANE PERLEZ
Published: September 25, 2012
BEIJING — In a ceremony attended by the country’s top leaders, China put its first aircraft carrier into service on Tuesday, a move intended to signal its growing military might as tensions escalate between Beijing and its neighbors over islands in nearby seas.
Officials said the carrier, a discarded vessel bought from Ukraine in 1998 and refurbished by China, would protect national sovereignty, an issue that has become a touchstone of the government’s dispute with Japan over ownership of islands in the East China Sea.
But despite the triumphant tone of the launching, which was watched by President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao, and despite rousing assessments by Chinese military experts about the importance of the carrier, the vessel will be used only for training and testing for the foreseeable future.
The mark “16” on the carrier’s side indicates that it is limited to training, Chinese and other military experts said. China does not have planes capable of landing on the carrier and so far training for such landings has been carried out on land, they said.
Even so, the public appearance of the carrier at the northeastern port of Dalian was used as an occasion to stir patriotic feelings, which have run at fever pitch in the last 10 days over the dispute between China and Japan over the East China Sea islands, called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China.
The carrier will “raise the overall operational strength of the Chinese Navy” and help China “to effectively protect national sovereignty, security and development interests,” the Ministry of Defense said.
The Communist Party congress that will begin the country’s once-in-a-decade leadership transition is expected to be held next month, and the public unveiling of the carrier appeared to be part of an effort to forge national unity ahead of the event.
For international purposes, the public unveiling of the carrier seemed intended to signal to smaller nations in the South China Sea, including the Philippines, an American ally, that China has an increasing number of impressive assets to deploy.
American military planners have played down the significance of the commissioning of the carrier. Some Navy officials have even said they would encourage China to move ahead with building its own aircraft carrier and the ships to accompany it, because it would be a waste of money.
Other military experts outside China have agreed with that assessment.
“The fact is the aircraft carrier is useless for the Chinese Navy,” You Ji, a visiting senior research fellow at the National University of Singapore, said in an interview. “If it is used against America, it has no survivability. If it is used against China’s neighbors, it’s a sign of bullying.”
Vietnam, a neighbor with whom China has fought wars, operates land-based Russian Su-30 aircraft that could pose a threat to the aircraft carrier, Mr. You said. “In the South China Sea, if the carrier is damaged by the Vietnamese, it’s a huge loss of face,” he said. “It’s not worth it.”
Up to now, Chinese pilots have been limited to practicing simulated carrier landings on concrete strips on land in Chinese J-8 aircraft based on Soviet-made MIG-23s produced about 25 years ago, Mr. You said. The pilots could not undertake the difficult maneuver of landing on a moving carrier because China does not yet have suitable aircraft, Mr. You said.
The question of whether China will move ahead and build its own carrier depends in large part, he said, on whether China can develop aircraft to land on one. “It’s a long, long process for constructing such aircraft,” he said.
In contrast to some of the skepticism expressed by military experts outside China, Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute, said in an interview in the state-run People’s Daily that the carrier would change the Chinese Navy’s traditional mind-set and bring qualitative changes to its operational style and structure, he said.
Although the Chinese military does not publish a breakdown of its military spending, foreign military experts say the navy is less well financed than the army and air force.
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E.R. Campbell said:
The real target has, finally, been hit according to a report in the Globe and Mail which says that "China politician Bo Xilai expelled from Communist Party, to face charges ... China’s ruling Communist Party accused disgraced former senior politician Bo Xilai of abusing his power, taking huge bribes and other crimes on Friday, opening a new phase in a scandal of murder and cover-ups that has shaken a leadership succession due at a congress to start on Nov. 8 ... Mr. Bo’s wife Gu Kailai and his former police chief Wang Lijun have both been jailed over the scandal stemming from the murder of British businessman Neil Heywood in the southwestern city of Chongqing, where Mr. Bo was Communist Party chief."
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A guess ...
Bo Xilai was a neo-Maoist; that was his crime; the Chinese leadership is done with Mao Zedong. Mao's portrait will continue to dominate Tienanmen Square for many, many years but, soon, while I am still alive, professors and graduate students in China's premier universities will begin to debate the idea that Mao was just another warlord, albeit a hugely successful one, in a 70 year long interregnum that lasted from 1912, when the Qing Dynasty fell, to 1982 when Deng Xiaoping took over and established a new Dynasty.
Eventually that idea will be taught in high school, then elementary school and it will be featured in popular entertainment. (The Chinese get a lot of information through long, semi-fictional, historical TV dramas - some of which have 50+ hour long episodes - which aim to establish a "common cultural norm.") Sun Yat Sen and Zhou Enlai will be treated a bit better: remembered as great social reformers with strange, muddled economic ideas. But it is Deng Xiaoping who will, eventually, be seen as the founder of the new (Republican) Dynasty.
__________
By the way, pretty girls in Tienanmen Square are pretty common ... (that's me, below, with a few in 2010)
Edit: typo
Bo Xilai was a neo-Maoist; that was his crime; the Chinese leadership is done with Mao Zedong. Mao's portrait will continue to dominate Tienanmen Square for many, many years but, soon, while I am still alive, professors and graduate students in China's premier universities will begin to debate the idea that Mao was just another warlord, albeit a hugely successful one, in a 70 year long interregnum that lasted from 1912, when the Qing Dynasty fell, to 1982 when Deng Xiaoping took over and established a new Dynasty.
Eventually that idea will be taught in high school, then elementary school and it will be featured in popular entertainment. (The Chinese get a lot of information through long, semi-fictional, historical TV dramas - some of which have 50+ hour long episodes - which aim to establish a "common cultural norm.") Sun Yat Sen and Zhou Enlai will be treated a bit better: remembered as great social reformers with strange, muddled economic ideas. But it is Deng Xiaoping who will, eventually, be seen as the founder of the new (Republican) Dynasty.
__________
By the way, pretty girls in Tienanmen Square are pretty common ... (that's me, below, with a few in 2010)
Edit: typo
Tories quietly table Canada-China investment treaty
BILL CURRY and SHAWN MCCARTHY OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Sep. 27 2012
Article Link
The Conservative government is poised to adopt a sweeping new investment treaty between Canada and China without a single Parliamentary vote or debate.
The text of the Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement was released for the first time this week and members of Parliament are just starting to work their way through the legal document.
Canada and China first announced a draft deal in February during a visit to Beijing by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
The final version was signed Sept. 9 in Vladivokstok, Russia, on the sidelines of the 2012 APEC leaders summit.
The treaty promises to set clear investment rules for Canadians in China and Chinese investors in Canada, but questions are already being raised over the treaty’s provisions for resolving disputes.
It allows companies to file claims for financial damages against other firms or against Canadian or Chinese governments for failing to abide by the agreement.
The claims would be resolved by a tribunal, but the hearings would only be open to the public if both sides agree that it is “in the public interest.”
Such dispute provisions are common in agreements of this type, but opposition MPs warned Thursday that the treaty merits much closer debate and scrutiny given the fact that many Chinese investments come in the form of companies that are directly controlled by China’s communist government.
“I think we should have a full debate about this,” said NDP trade critic Don Davies.
“Surely we can take the time to make sure the agreements we sign are sound and good for Canadians.”
The proposed $15.1-billion takeover of Canada’s Nexen Inc. by China’s CNOOC Ltd., a state-owned energy firm, has triggered a debate across the country and inside government over how Canada should respond to China’s huge appetite for investment opportunities.
Yet there is no government-sanctioned debate planned on the new treaty that will govern investment between the two countries for at least the next 15 years.
The Conservative government is of the view that adopting the treaty does not require it to introduce legislation in Parliament.
More on link
BILL CURRY and SHAWN MCCARTHY OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Sep. 27 2012
Article Link
The Conservative government is poised to adopt a sweeping new investment treaty between Canada and China without a single Parliamentary vote or debate.
The text of the Foreign Investment Promotion and Protection Agreement was released for the first time this week and members of Parliament are just starting to work their way through the legal document.
Canada and China first announced a draft deal in February during a visit to Beijing by Prime Minister Stephen Harper.
The final version was signed Sept. 9 in Vladivokstok, Russia, on the sidelines of the 2012 APEC leaders summit.
The treaty promises to set clear investment rules for Canadians in China and Chinese investors in Canada, but questions are already being raised over the treaty’s provisions for resolving disputes.
It allows companies to file claims for financial damages against other firms or against Canadian or Chinese governments for failing to abide by the agreement.
The claims would be resolved by a tribunal, but the hearings would only be open to the public if both sides agree that it is “in the public interest.”
Such dispute provisions are common in agreements of this type, but opposition MPs warned Thursday that the treaty merits much closer debate and scrutiny given the fact that many Chinese investments come in the form of companies that are directly controlled by China’s communist government.
“I think we should have a full debate about this,” said NDP trade critic Don Davies.
“Surely we can take the time to make sure the agreements we sign are sound and good for Canadians.”
The proposed $15.1-billion takeover of Canada’s Nexen Inc. by China’s CNOOC Ltd., a state-owned energy firm, has triggered a debate across the country and inside government over how Canada should respond to China’s huge appetite for investment opportunities.
Yet there is no government-sanctioned debate planned on the new treaty that will govern investment between the two countries for at least the next 15 years.
The Conservative government is of the view that adopting the treaty does not require it to introduce legislation in Parliament.
More on link
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
Are you sure you weren't a Sailor? Cuz all the nice girls love a Sailor...E.R. Campbell said:__________
By the way, pretty girls in Tienanmen Square are pretty common ... (that's me, below, with a few in 2010)
Edit: typo
I don't think a free trade deal is a good idea. China has no friends only interests.
http://news.techeye.net/security/chinese-hackers-have-control-of-us-power-grid_
________________________________________________________________________________
Chinese hackers (attempt to) have control of US power grid
28 Sep 2012 09:07 | by Nick Farrell in Rome | Filed in Security Dell China
Chinese hackers have control of US power grid -
The company whose software and services remotely administers and monitor large sections of the US energy industry began warning customers about a sophisticated hacker attack.
Telvent Canada said that digital fingerprints left behind by attackers point to a Chinese hacking group tied to repeated cyber-espionage campaigns against key Western interests.
It looks like the hackers managed to get past the company firewall and security systems.
In letters sent to customers last week, Telvent Canada said the attack happened on September the 10th.
The attackers installed malicious software and stole project files related to one of its core offerings — OASyS SCADA — a product that helps energy firms mesh older IT assets with more advanced “smart grid” technologies.
The company said it was disconnecting the usual data links between clients and affected portions of its internal networks.
Meanwhile it is looking for virus or malware files.
According to KrebsOnSecurity.com, the company does not think that the intruders got any information that would enable them to gain access to a customer system or that any of the compromised computers have been connected to a customer system.
Telvent said it was working with law enforcement and a task force of representatives from its parent firm, Schneider Electric.
Joe Stewart, director of malware research at Dell SecureWorks said the Web site and malware names cited in the Telvent report map back to a Chinese hacking team known as the “Comment Group.”
Comment Group has been involved in sophisticated attacks to harvest intellectual property and trade secrets from energy companies, patent law firms and investment banks.
Read more: http://news.techeye.net/security/chinese-hackers-have-control-of-us-power-grid#ixzz27qnw00Vc
http://news.techeye.net/security/chinese-hackers-have-control-of-us-power-grid_
________________________________________________________________________________
Chinese hackers (attempt to) have control of US power grid
28 Sep 2012 09:07 | by Nick Farrell in Rome | Filed in Security Dell China
Chinese hackers have control of US power grid -
The company whose software and services remotely administers and monitor large sections of the US energy industry began warning customers about a sophisticated hacker attack.
Telvent Canada said that digital fingerprints left behind by attackers point to a Chinese hacking group tied to repeated cyber-espionage campaigns against key Western interests.
It looks like the hackers managed to get past the company firewall and security systems.
In letters sent to customers last week, Telvent Canada said the attack happened on September the 10th.
The attackers installed malicious software and stole project files related to one of its core offerings — OASyS SCADA — a product that helps energy firms mesh older IT assets with more advanced “smart grid” technologies.
The company said it was disconnecting the usual data links between clients and affected portions of its internal networks.
Meanwhile it is looking for virus or malware files.
According to KrebsOnSecurity.com, the company does not think that the intruders got any information that would enable them to gain access to a customer system or that any of the compromised computers have been connected to a customer system.
Telvent said it was working with law enforcement and a task force of representatives from its parent firm, Schneider Electric.
Joe Stewart, director of malware research at Dell SecureWorks said the Web site and malware names cited in the Telvent report map back to a Chinese hacking team known as the “Comment Group.”
Comment Group has been involved in sophisticated attacks to harvest intellectual property and trade secrets from energy companies, patent law firms and investment banks.
Read more: http://news.techeye.net/security/chinese-hackers-have-control-of-us-power-grid#ixzz27qnw00Vc
- Reaction score
- 6,166
- Points
- 1,260
Nemo888 said:
We have no permanent allies,
we have no permanent enemies,
we only have permanent interests.
Attributed to Henry John Temple Viscount Lord Palmerston 1784-1865,
Foreign Secretary and two-time Prime Minister under Queen Victoria.
What he actually said was [concerning apparent British apathy regarding
Polish struggles against Russian hegemony, which Palmerston did not
believe that it met the threshold of justifiable war] “He concluded with
the famous peroration that Britain had no eternal allies and
no perpetual enemies, only interest that were eternal and perpetual . . .”
quoted in David Brown, Palmerston and the Politics of Foreign Policy,
1846-1855 (Manchester: Manchester University Press, 2002), pp. 82-83.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 210
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/10/03/chinas_afghan_moment
The article is stating that China is taking more interest in the affairs of Afghanistan, with coalition troops leaving in 2014. Perhaps this could be a good thing for the development of the country, since the Chinese seem to have good relations with the Pakistanis. Is any one worried about the Chinese in Afghanistan?
Here is an article from the Asian Times about Russia efforts to have better relations with the Central Asian countries, also in expectation of the 2014 pull out. Is anyone worried about Russia gaining too much influence in this area of the world. Should the West do more to have more influence in the Central Asian Region
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/NI19Df01.html
The article is stating that China is taking more interest in the affairs of Afghanistan, with coalition troops leaving in 2014. Perhaps this could be a good thing for the development of the country, since the Chinese seem to have good relations with the Pakistanis. Is any one worried about the Chinese in Afghanistan?
Here is an article from the Asian Times about Russia efforts to have better relations with the Central Asian countries, also in expectation of the 2014 pull out. Is anyone worried about Russia gaining too much influence in this area of the world. Should the West do more to have more influence in the Central Asian Region
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/NI19Df01.html
- Reaction score
- 6,166
- Points
- 1,260
The Chinese have been active, commercially, in Afghanistan for years; it shares a (small) border with Afghanistan and has major security concerns of its own, in Xinjiang province, which more or less requires it to concern itself with Afghanistan.
As to the broader Central Asia question: we, the American led West, have little influence there. It is, right now, a Sino-Rusian battleground (see e.g. the Shanghai Six (SCO) within which China and Russia try to make nice while they bicker over Central Asia's (potentially large) resource base. Given China's (especially) strong interests and position in the region I'm not sure we, the American led West, should bother too much because I suspect the certain risks are greater than the potential rewards. We can only stretch ourselves so far, after all.
Mods: can this be moved into the Chinese superthread, please? Thanks
Edit: to thank Mods
As to the broader Central Asia question: we, the American led West, have little influence there. It is, right now, a Sino-Rusian battleground (see e.g. the Shanghai Six (SCO) within which China and Russia try to make nice while they bicker over Central Asia's (potentially large) resource base. Given China's (especially) strong interests and position in the region I'm not sure we, the American led West, should bother too much because I suspect the certain risks are greater than the potential rewards. We can only stretch ourselves so far, after all.
Mods: can this be moved into the Chinese superthread, please? Thanks
Edit: to thank Mods
- Reaction score
- 35
- Points
- 560
When the Soviet Union collapsed, America did try to extend its interests into Central Asia, but as an Oceanic Power, has real limits to what she can achieve. Georgia and the 'Stans are at the far limits of American military, political and economic power, regardless of what Americans might desire.
Since (so far as I can tell) US foreign policy seems to rest on the world view of Halford Mackinder:
only substituting the Middle East for Eastern Europe as the true "Heartland", then the logical extension of this idea is that affairs should be arranged so that no Power can dominate the Heartland and thus threaten the United States.
Interesting aside, Robert Kaplan's new book rests on a similar set of assumptions, although in HIS book, the Heartland is defined as the Iranian plateau. Obviously the idea of the Heartland isn't as fixed as Mackinder believed.
WRT this thread, the Americans would be delighted to see the Chinese sucked into some sort of cesspool of a long war with Islamic radicals in the Chinese "West" and beyond (and perhaps throwing in conflict with Russia and the Maritime powers of East Asia as well). It seems unlikely to happen in that fashion, as Edward regularly teaches, the Chinese play the long game and their strategic calculations are made on a different time frame and from a different base of values and interests than ours.
Since (so far as I can tell) US foreign policy seems to rest on the world view of Halford Mackinder:
only substituting the Middle East for Eastern Europe as the true "Heartland", then the logical extension of this idea is that affairs should be arranged so that no Power can dominate the Heartland and thus threaten the United States.
Interesting aside, Robert Kaplan's new book rests on a similar set of assumptions, although in HIS book, the Heartland is defined as the Iranian plateau. Obviously the idea of the Heartland isn't as fixed as Mackinder believed.
WRT this thread, the Americans would be delighted to see the Chinese sucked into some sort of cesspool of a long war with Islamic radicals in the Chinese "West" and beyond (and perhaps throwing in conflict with Russia and the Maritime powers of East Asia as well). It seems unlikely to happen in that fashion, as Edward regularly teaches, the Chinese play the long game and their strategic calculations are made on a different time frame and from a different base of values and interests than ours.
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