Clintonistas at War with America: Waco and Ruby Ridge

[TCBF]

"It's illegal to be non-cooperative when there's a summons out in your name for a court date on charges you're facing. As for the mother, that was unfortunate and the round wasn't aimed at her but at one of the armed boys/husband outside."

Perhaps not quite:

"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents entrapped Randy Weaver into a minor firearms violation in Ruby Ridge, Idaho. U.S. Marshals lied about the circumstances of how they killed Weaver's 14-year old son, and FBI agent Ron Horiuchi lied about circumstances surrounding his killing of Weaver's wife, Vicki. Subsequently, FBI officials have lied to cover up their criminal actions during the siege on Weaver's home.

Other BATF agents lied to get a search warrant in Waco against the Branch Davidians and lied to cover up their misdeeds in the initial raid. The Davidians and the Weavers were targeted for their religious and political views, not because of any racism of the agents.

We need more accountability for law enforcement officials, not less. This is the only way to protect the honorable majority of officers from the Mark Fuhrman's of the world. Congress needs to strengthen the exclusionary rule, not gut it." - http://www.gunowners.org/op9506.htm

" Every once in a while we feel the need to mention miscarriages of justice widely publicized in the US. O.J. Simpson walks free, though there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he murdered his wife. Ron Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver by means of his sniper-school skill. He was not even reprimanded, much less disciplined." - http://harris.dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff12_13.html

"The State of Idaho filed manslaughter charges, and the Department of Justice defended. The case was moved to U.S. District Court, where the judge ruled—in a decision since upheld by the Court of Appeals (albeit under reconsideration as we write)—that a State could not prosecute a Federal employee for crimes committed in the line of his employment.

Since Federal agents could not be prosecuted by the Federal government, either (there is no Federal law against an agent killing a civilian), this literally gave Federal agents a license to kill. In the grand scheme of things, a civilian's life was literally worth less than that of a law enforcement dog: a civilian is subject to ten years' imprisonment for killing or seriously injuring a Federal law enforcement dog."
-http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b4a9fb82865.htm

"The ATF had previously created quite a mess at Ruby Ridge, also. The HRT was called in to resolve the situation, apparently by whatever means necessary since their orders, both illegal and unconstitutional, were to "shoot on sight." FBI sniper, Ron Horiuchi, shot and killed Randy Weaver's unarmed wife while she was holding her baby in her arms. Blew off half her face with a sniper rifle.

What was the Weaver family's crime? Randy Weaver refused to cooperate with the ATF as an informant. There has been no accountability for the federal assault on the Weaver family that left Randy Weaver's teenage son and wife dead. If we look for some sign of a conscience among the federal agents involved, we see only arrogance. Medals of bravery were awarded to the US Marshals that participated in the assault. The FBI Director called the Weaver case one of the most dangerous cases in the history of the Bureau.

This is the same HRT that was at Waco, where the FBI claimed they never fired a shot. The evidence, however, tells a different story." - http://radicalacademy.com/yonanessay1.htm

Tom

 

[Glorified Ape]

"It's illegal to be non-cooperative when there's a summons out in your name for a court date on charges you're facing. As for the mother, that was unfortunate and the round wasn't aimed at her but at one of the armed boys/husband outside."

Perhaps not quite:

"Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents entrapped Randy Weaver into a minor firearms violation in Ruby Ridge, Idaho. U.S. Marshals lied about the circumstances of how they killed Weaver's 14-year old son, and FBI agent Ron Horiuchi lied about circumstances surrounding his killing of Weaver's wife, Vicki. Subsequently, FBI officials have lied to cover up their criminal actions during the siege on Weaver's home.

Other BATF agents lied to get a search warrant in Waco against the Branch Davidians and lied to cover up their misdeeds in the initial raid. The Davidians and the Weavers were targeted for their religious and political views, not because of any racism of the agents.

We need more accountability for law enforcement officials, not less. This is the only way to protect the honorable majority of officers from the Mark Fuhrman's of the world. Congress needs to strengthen the exclusionary rule, not gut it." - http://www.gunowners.org/op9506.htm

You'll forgive me if I don't take the same view of Waco and RR as "www.gunowners.org". Their interpretation of events is skewed, to say the least.

" Every once in a while we feel the need to mention miscarriages of justice widely publicized in the US. O.J. Simpson walks free, though there is no doubt in anyone's mind that he murdered his wife. Ron Horiuchi murdered Vicky Weaver by means of his sniper-school skill. He was not even reprimanded, much less disciplined." - http://harris.dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff12_13.html

She was hit accidentally by a round intended for an armed male (and that hit that male, apparently, but passed through him). All this conspiracy theory tripe is bunk - there were some questionable decisions at Ruby Ridge but the responsibility lies on the shoulders of Randy Weaver for not showing up to his trial.

"The State of Idaho filed manslaughter charges, and the Department of Justice defended. The case was moved to U.S. District Court, where the judge ruled—in a decision since upheld by the Court of Appeals (albeit under reconsideration as we write)—that a State could not prosecute a Federal employee for crimes committed in the line of his employment.

Since Federal agents could not be prosecuted by the Federal government, either (there is no Federal law against an agent killing a civilian), this literally gave Federal agents a license to kill. In the grand scheme of things, a civilian's life was literally worth less than that of a law enforcement dog: a civilian is subject to ten years' imprisonment for killing or seriously injuring a Federal law enforcement dog."
-http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b4a9fb82865.htm

Yes - they should file charges against a sniper following orders whose shot hit its intended target but unforunately passed through him and hit his wife. That's ridiculous.

"The ATF had previously created quite a mess at Ruby Ridge, also. The HRT was called in to resolve the situation, apparently by whatever means necessary since their orders, both illegal and unconstitutional, were to "shoot on sight." FBI sniper, Ron Horiuchi, shot and killed Randy Weaver's unarmed wife while she was holding her baby in her arms. Blew off half her face with a sniper rifle.

Yeah, that leaves out quite a bit - like the fact that the armed man he was firing at had already killed a federal agent. But we'll just forget Weaver's culpability in our paranoid, McVeigh-esque fury against anything government.

What was the Weaver family's crime? Randy Weaver refused to cooperate with the ATF as an informant. There has been no accountability for the federal assault on the Weaver family that left Randy Weaver's teenage son and wife dead. If we look for some sign of a conscience among the federal agents involved, we see only arrogance. Medals of bravery were awarded to the US Marshals that participated in the assault. The FBI Director called the Weaver case one of the most dangerous cases in the history of the Bureau.

Charges were laid against the sniper and he was acquitted (your link already established that) - where is there no accountability there? Randy Weaver's first crime was the sale of prohibited firearms, his second crime was ignoring a summons, and his third crime was firing on federal agents serving an arrest warrant. Why the hell are we glorifying the criminal here? I thought you were all for the condemning criminals - or is it different in this case because the guy was a gun nut and a white supremacist paranoid freak?

Funny there's no mention of how f--ked up these people were - they wrote letters to the district attorney and other authorities prior to the incident (while Weaver was ignoring his summons) saying they'd only obey "Yahweh, Lord of Saxon Israel" and addressed the authorities as "The Queen of Babylon" and "Servants to the Queen of Babylon". These were not stable people. 

This is the same HRT that was at Waco, where the FBI claimed they never fired a shot. The evidence, however, tells a different story." - http://radicalacademy.com/yonanessay1.htm

Tom

I don't remember the authorities ever denying they fired shots - there was a full-out firefight at Waco and the video of it has been out for some time. The authorities at Waco were executing a search warrant, which Koresh refused to allow. If you go through the entire timeline, the authorities were actually quite patient and tolerant with Koresh but since he broke every submission deadline he gave them (the Passover deadline, the "I'm writing a dissertation on how to unlock the Seven Seals and I'll come out when I'm done" deadline, etc.), they eventually took non-lethal measures to force those freaks out of their little Christ-and-Carbines compound. Things escalated and the majority (if not all) the deaths caused were because the stupid twinks (and innocent children) in the compound refused to leave and set the fires that burned themselves to death. You'll forgive me if I lack an ounce of sympathy for them (excepting the children).

 

[TCBF]

Wow.  I think I hit a nerve.

;D

The gas grenades started the fires. Most of the kids didn't die of burning, they died from the Hydrogen Cyanide produced by the burning of CS at high temperatures. 

Your "Christ and Carbines" remark is very telling. 

Tom

 

[Glorified Ape]

Wow.  I think I hit a nerve.

;D

The gas grenades started the fires. Most of the kids didn't die of burning, they died from the Hydrogen Cyanide produced by the burning of CS at high temperatures. 

Your "Christ and Carbines" remark is very telling. 

Tom

Yeah, I tend to get up in arms about religious fanatics and religion in general... I don't know what it is (it's really quite involuntary on my part), the whole topic just annoys the crap out of me. I can respect religious people, and I have religious relatives, I just can't stand religion itself or the fanatical elements of its constituency.

The two pyrotechnic tear gas grenades used at Waco were fired into an adjoining space 75m from the main compound. Arson investigators have already established that the fires started in three different places within the MAIN compound, not in the "pit" where the pyrotechnic rounds were employed. I have no doubt that the Davidians started the fires:

"The cult members responded by setting their compound ablaze using lantern fuel to spread the flames. Mr Ricks said one survivor told the FBI a cry rang through the building as it went up in flames of: 'The fire is lit, the fire is lit.' "

"Koresh had warned the FBI in a letter last week that agents would be 'devoured by fire' if they tried to harm him."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/fromthearchive/story/0,12269,1195042,00.html

Burning CS producing hydrogen cyanide which killed the Davidians is debatable (not the possibility of the chemical reaction, but being the cause of death):

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/topten2.html

Medical examiners, Dr. Nizam Peerwani and Dr. Rodney Crow, have told FRONTLINE that many of them died from asphyxiation when the intense fire raced through the compound. Others, particularly women and children who huddled under wet blankets in a concrete chamber, were fatally injured when debris collapsed on them during the fire, the officials said. Still others were shot to death, suicide or homicide victims in apparent mercy killings, they said. Both the coroners and some FBI sources have told FRONTLINE that the pattern of most of the bodies was not consistent with a theory of mass suicide.

Even if it's true, it's unfortunate but not the fault of the government. I would no more blame the government for that than blame a police officer for the death of a knife-wielding man after being tazered.

As for the "Christ-and-Carbines" crack, I've never made any secret of my disdain for organized religion, most specifically the proselytizing ones. I dislike Jesus-freaks that screw children even more and have about as much sympathy for the pathetic parents that allow it because they worship the pedophile (which says alot about them, incidentally):

http://www.usdoj.gov/05publications/waco/wacoseven.html

Former compound members told stories about Koresh's alleged practice of having sex with girls as young as twelve. Evidence suggested that Koresh had "wives" who were in their mid-teens, that Koresh told detailed and inappropriate sexual stories in front of the children during his Bible study sessions, and that Koresh taught the young girls that it was a privilege for them to become old enough (i.e., reach puberty) to have sex with him. One former compound member described how Koresh would invent theological justifications for his sexual desires, whether they involved having sex with young girls or with other men's adult wives. According to information provided to the FBI, at least two minor girls were "wives" of Koresh at the time of the standoff.

From ATF Special Agent Aguilera's interview of former compound resident Jeannine Bunds, included in Agent Aguilera's affidavit in support of the Koresh arrest warrant, February 25, 1993:

"Ms. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen (15) children with various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered seven (7) of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Ms. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls' ages are from eleven (11) years old to adulthood."

Joyce Sparks, Children's Protective Services Investigations supervisor, Waco, interviewed a young girl, a former compound resident, on February 22, 1993:

"[She] entered the cult when she was about three or four years old. . . .

We asked her if she could think of any reason that any of the children at the compound would not be safe and as we got into this discussion, she brought up the topic of sexual abuse. She described herself as special and treated differently than other children. She talked about spending time alone with David and although this was 'scary' she felt 'privileged.'

She explained to us that on one occasion, when she was ten years old, her mother left her in a motel room with David Koresh. He was in bed and he told [her] to come over to him. She got into the bed. David had no pants on. He took off her panties and touched her and then got on top of her. . . .

We talked about how she was feeling when this happened and she responded . . . 'scared.' When asked what else she felt, she responded . . . 'privileged.' When asked what David would do if he knew she was telling us about this, [she] rolled her eyes and said . . . 'I wouldn't even want to think about it.'

We asked if she knew about any other girls who had experienced this and she said yes. She reported that she knew about Michelle Jones. When asked how she knew this, she explained that David had talked about having sex with Michelle when she was fourteen. He told in a Bible study once what it was like when he had sex with Michelle."

: Yeah, I'm all tears-and-snot over the death of a psychotic pedophile and his sad little troupe of weak-minded, pedophile-worshipping gits. I feel sorry for the kids, though, it wasn't their fault that their parents were idiots and they didn't deserve any of what happened.

The "Christ-and-Carbines compound" line was kind of good though, eh? Great consonance there, if I do say so myself. ;D

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

For once I agree with Ape,...except for the part where you call this dirtbag a Jesus-freak, show me ANYWHERE in any Christian religion where this guy would be welcome in the environment. He used God/Jesus just like a dictator uses a "rallying" cry [ Jews, peasants, etc] to keep power....

 

[Glorified Ape]

For once I agree with Ape,...except for the part where you call this dirtbag a Jesus-freak, show me ANYWHERE in any Christian religion where this guy would be welcome in the environment. He used God/Jesus just like a dictator uses a "rallying" cry [ Jews, peasants, etc] to keep power....

Well, good to know we agree on something. ;D

As for Koresh being welcome in another Christian cult (Lutheran, Pentacostal, Baptist, etc), I agree. Christianity generally doesn't support pedophilia, regardless of the Catholic clergy's penchant for it (and covering it up).

 

[Michael Dorosh]

As for OJ Simpson, it is silly to say 'everyone' knows he killed his wife.  A jury of 12 obviously didn't feel that way.

http://www.wikipedia.org has an interesting and even plausible alternate theory of the murders that suggests Simpson may be innocent.  I don't know if I agree or not; the evidence as presented to the public does seem overwhelming in favor of convicting him.  Nor do I believe there was a police conspiracy, though Fuhrman muddies those waters considerably.  But there is doubt  - whether it is reasonable or not is for those more knowledgeable about the case than I to decide. 

 

[GonzoScribe]

I love a good conspiracy.  It's important to read alternate views of different events to get a broader idea surrounding any event.  But one thing I do first, is consider the source of the information I consume and ponder on their reasons for advancing certain concepts.

I also really like firearms, but I'm not a gun nut.  Gun nuts scare me, especially the American flavour who seem to think their beliefs are the only right ones and all the rest have been duped by the evil empire.  And nothing scares me more than when they collect and form militias.

Nothing except... when they do in in Christ's name.  Because then they become well-armed religious zealots willing to kill anyone they think is complicit in supporting their enemies.  These are religious extremists.  Before Islamic extremists were ever a threat to the United States, the enemy of the state was Christian extremism. 

I can't imagine any Christian subscribing to the teachings of Christ being able to find justification in the New Testament to take up arms against their government or countrymen.  That, of course, is why they typically quote from the Old Testament, the contents of which even Christ felt compelled to clarify and modernize.  In the end, most would agree Christ was a pacifist, with the exception of his over turning of tables in from of the temple, and preached the golden rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you).  Certainly not the make war with your neighbours kind of deal.  And definitely not the hate-those-who-don't-agree-with-you bit either.  However, I doubt he would be very proud of most of Christianity's history in the last 1600 years.

Before I digress too far from what I was trying to say (heck, I even have songs from Jesus Christ Superstar going through my head now),  to understand an event, we must use discernment.  This skill requires great effort in that you always have to consider the motive behind the version one is trying to advance.  Most of the conspiracy theories dealing with Waco are advanced by those who are religious zealots, gun fanatics and are overly distrustful of government.  Their followers typically don't have great skill in discernment and are easily swayed by what appears to be a good alternative to the official version.  Just like the people who continually fall for email hoaxes and plug up the Internet with forwarding them before checking them out at snopes.com or hoaxbusters.ciac.org, they fall easily for anything that seems plausible, assuming there's something wrong with the official explanation.

Of course, the fact that there's been an unprecedented amount of media manipulation and social engineering at the hands of political pundits has created a generation of people less trusting of their leaders.  And politicians, notorious for lying when it is to their advantage, seem to be pushing the boundaries of contempt (How can you tell a politician is lying?  His lips are moving.).

My $0,02 worth,

GonzoScribe  Mike C.

 

[TCBF]

"Before Islamic extremists were ever a threat to the United States, the enemy of the state was Christian extremism."

-In the words of an American Essayist: "Religious nuts with guns?  This country was founded by religious nuts with guns!" 

" can't imagine any Christian subscribing to the teachings of Christ being able to find justification in the New Testament to take up arms against their government or countrymen. "

- So, you don't think the Christians in Germany should have removed Adolph Hitler from power using any means necessary in 1935?

"Certainly not the make war with your neighbours kind of deal."

- No, but DO arm yourself:  "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."  (KJV) Luke 22.36

"the contents of which even Christ felt compelled to clarify and modernize."

I'm sure about 1,000,000,000 people would be interested in reading the version of the OT that was modified by Christ.  Where do you keep it?

Tom

 

[48Highlander]

Yes - they should file charges against a sniper following orders whose shot hit its intended target but unforunately passed through him and hit his wife. That's ridiculous.

Aw, c'mon.  You KNOW that if this had happened to a USMC Sniper in Iraq, you and the rest of the lefties would be screaming for his head  ;D

 

[TCBF]

Weaver and his family at Ruby Ridge in Idaho.

The Weavers have disappeared down an Orwellian memory hole for most Americans. You see, their story doesn’t offer an occasion for waving flags and singing patriotic songs. In fact, despite the tragedy that befell the Weaver family, Randy Weaver is still vilified by major media and so-called liberals for his "crimes and strange beliefs." Those crimes and strange beliefs include distrust of your government.

Randy Weaver had reason to distrust his government. In 1991, an agent of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) entrapped Weaver by hiring him to cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally. Once Weaver was arrested, BATF tried to force him to inform on the Aryan Nation group, with which he was affiliated, but he refused. Weaver also refused to appear in court for the minor firearms charge. For the next 18 months, the U.S. Marshals Service spied on the Weavers’ isolated mountain cabin, where Randy lived with his wife Vicki, son Sammy (14), daughters Sara (16), Rachel (10), and Elisheba (10 months), and a young friend named Kevin Harris.

Then came August 21, 1992. On that morning, six trained government marksmen wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers, crept up on the Weaver cabin without warning or warrant and without identifying themselves. First they shot and killed the family’s yellow Labrador, Striker, who had been barking at the intruders. When young Sammy witnessed this, he fired a .223 mini-14 in the direction from which the shots had come, then ran back toward the cabin. Agents shot Sammy in the arm, knocking him down. The youngster got back to his feet and began running again. Moments later, a second gunshot caught Sammy in the back, killing him.

Within 24 hours, one Deputy U.S. Marshal was dead and some 400 federal agents were arriving at the scene, along with a helicopter, "humvees," and armored transport vehicles and personnel carriers. The Weavers’ dead dog was left in the road and repeatedly run over by government vehicles. On the afternoon of August 22, Vicki Weaver, standing at the cabin’s kitchen door and armed with nothing more lethal than baby Elisheba, was shot in the head by a government sniper. The round hit Vicki in the temple, traveled through her mouth, tongue, and jawbone, then severed her carotid artery. Kneeling on the floor and still clutching her baby, Vicki bled to death.

Nine days later, Weaver, a badly wounded Harris, and the surviving kids surrendered to federal agents. Eleven months after that, a jury in Boise, Idaho, acquitted Weaver and Harris of murder and conspiracy charges stemming from the government assault.


When the jury came back with its not-guilty verdict, Randy Weaver turned to his lawyer, Gerry Spence. "I’ve learned something about the system," he told Spence. "This is a good system. This system will work."

Weaver was more optimistic than I am. More forgiving, too. In 1995, Congressional hearings into the Weaver tragedy revealed a cover-up, but the feds refused to prosecute the killers of Sammy and Vicki Weaver. Case closed. And despite all the evidence of government wrongdoing, those of us who now mention the name Randy Weaver are generally dismissed as "right-wing, gun-toting, conspiracy nuts."

Today, while the Weaver story is falling through the cracks of history, most Americans look toward the anniversary of 9/11 and demand that the government "do something, anything" to protect them from foreign terrorists — highly trained assassins wearing ski masks and camouflage and armed with automatic weapons equipped with silencers.

As for me, I will respectfully observe the 9/11 memorials. But I also intend to take a few minutes on August 21, the tenth anniversary of the Siege at Ruby Ridge, to ponder how best to tell the Bad Guys from the Good Guys during these difficult times. And to wonder how wise it is to demand that one band of murderous thugs protect us from another.

August 10, 2002

Wally Conger [send him mail] is a marketing consultant and writer living on California’s central coast.

 

[TCBF]

FBI assault at Ruby Ridge
In 1992, the U.S. federal government conducted a military siege of a rural Idaho family, ultimately killing Randy Weaver's dog, son and wife.

Federal agents set Randy Weaver up on weapons charges.

Attempting to infiltrate a white supremacist group, the ATF entrapped Weaver into selling them two shotguns. When he refused to cooperate with them, federal agents lied in order to get support for their retaliation.

The U.S. government murdered Randy Weaver's son and wife during a military siege of Ruby Ridge.

Four hundred armed federal agents conducted a siege of the Weavers' mountain home, first killing Randy Weaver's dog, then his son, then his wife.

Weaver was found innocent of all serious charges.

In a 1993 trial, Randy Weaver and his friend were found innocent of weapons and murder charges. Weaver was found guilty only of not appearing in court on the original charges.

Later investigations criticized the federal agents.

The Justice Department's own report recommended criminal prosecution of federal agents; the surviving Weavers won $3.1 million in civil damages.

The U.S. Senate criticized federal law enforcement for their roles.

In September 1995, the Senate held hearings on the Ruby Ridge incident, and in December, released its report criticizing the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies.

-http://www.boogieonline.com/

 

[Glorified Ape]

Well, those are two takes on it which seem to forget/omit quite a bit - IE the fact that the sniper was shooting at Randy when his wife was hit.

Moral of the story: next time, show up to your court dates and don't shoot at law enforcement officials.

 

[TCBF]

'Moral of the story: next time, show up to your court dates and don't shoot at law enforcement officials"

- What?  The Weaver boy was shooting at whoever sub-gunned his DOG - at that point, they had no idea there was an LE task force near their property.

The real moral is: Climate of Command and it's effect on the ethical decision making processes of one's subordinates.  If you hold a group of citizens in clear disdain because you feel them to be white reclusive hillbillies, don't expect your subordinates NOT to botch the mission resulting in the death of three people, destroyed careers, and millions in damages payed out to the victims.

Another telling point: The Clintonistas during this time frame spent more money going after Bill Gates than they did Osama Bin Laden.  Just who WERE they at war with?

Coming soon to a Canada near you.

Tom

 

[midgetcop]

Whatever happened to placing blame on those that break the law in the first place?

Or does that general rule not apply when talking about a president that was a democrat?

 

[TCBF]

"Whatever happened to placing blame on those that break the law in the first place?

Or does that general rule not apply when talking about a president that was a democrat?"

- Fair and logical questions.  I will comment on in reverse order.

2.  Fair comment: Had it been under Reagan, no doubt the theory would be that the FBI/HRT was 'out of control' and 'loose cannons' and Reagan was a victim of Louis Freeh and his 'Climate of Command' at the FBI.  But, under Clinton, this is used as an axe to beat him with.  Clinton apparently has no great love for Freeh, and there is good cause to believe that Janet Reno had been led down the garden path as well regarding the 'assurances' she had been given regarding the outcomes for both Waco and Ruby Ridge.  In short - she was lied to.  This whole deal may have been hoped to be a foil for the internal issues in the FBI (Russian Spies, etc) at the time.

1.  Proportional use of force.  At  Ruby Ridge,  the stand-off ended when locals whom Weaver trusted escorted his family out of the house some nine days after the shooting.  Weaver's only conviction in court after that was for 'Failure to Appear'.  I think a visit by the local sheriff - who has since written a book with Weaver - may have solved the problem at the beginning.

My take on this is that if we and our elected leaders and the bureaucrats demonize certain segments of society because of their political/religious stance AND their perceived inability to strike back (both conditions must be present), abuses will occur.    Encouraging people to commit crimes so you can catch them is the beginning of this slippery slope.

Especially when you 'target' the groups you think won't rile the taxpayers, and leave alone those who can make political trouble for you.

Tom

 

[midgetcop]

That fair enough. Honestly, I don't know a lot about the particulars in either case, I was trying to poke at ya. 

 

[TCBF]

Hey, I'm fair game.  BA and Brit don't let me get off with much here - and that is as it should be.



Tom

 

[Glorified Ape]

'Moral of the story: next time, show up to your court dates and don't shoot at law enforcement officials"

- What?  The Weaver boy was shooting at whoever sub-gunned his DOG - at that point, they had no idea there was an LE task force near their property.

That's still in contention - the US Marshals assert that one dog was being held at bay and when they identified themselves as USMs, Kevin Harris fired on them, with the ensuing gun battle.

Here's a good summary (from DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE REPORT REGARDING INTERNAL INVESTIGATION OF SHOOTINGS AT RUBY RIDGE, IDAHO DURING ARREST OF RANDY WEAVER, not "gunnuts.org" or "opponentsofbabylonsoppression.com") of the events and ensuing legal stuff:

http://www.byington.org/Carl/ruby/ruby3.htm

The real moral is: Climate of Command and it's effect on the ethical decision making processes of one's subordinates.  If you hold a group of citizens in clear disdain because you feel them to be white reclusive hillbillies, don't expect your subordinates NOT to botch the mission resulting in the death of three people, destroyed careers, and millions in damages payed out to the victims.

I agree, the "climate of command" probably had an effect, as I'm sure having to camp outside for weeks on end did. This wasn't a sudden event, Weaver had refused to surrender for months before the incident. Considering this, I think there was a great deal of restraint shown by the government. I would have preferred they send a SWAT team in and drag his non-compliant rear end into custody, shooting anyone and everyone (female or not) that provided armed opposition to them. Any deaths are the responsibility of Weaver for not submitting to the lawful authority of the government.

Another telling point: The Clintonistas during this time frame spent more money going after Bill Gates than they did Osama Bin Laden.   Just who WERE they at war with?

Coming soon to a Canada near you.

Tom

It's hardly an either/or scenario - they can do both at the same time.

 

[48Highlander]

I agree, the "climate of command" probably had an effect, as I'm sure having to camp outside for weeks on end did. This wasn't a sudden event, Weaver had refused to surrender for months before the incident. Considering this, I think there was a great deal of restraint shown by the government. I would have preferred they send a SWAT team in and drag his non-compliant rear end into custody, shooting anyone and everyone (female or not) that provided armed opposition to them. Any deaths are the responsibility of Weaver for not submitting to the lawful authority of the government.

You've GOT to be kidding.....

I hope you never try to apply that theory in theater:  "Yes sir, that guy over there wouldn't submit to our authority, so we shot his 12 children to teach him a lesson".

Even with our lax legal system, I'm pretty sure YOUR life-sentence would really be a life-sentence....