Close Air Support in the CF: Bring back something like the CF-5 or introduce something with props?

[Journeyman]

source/link?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The Malaysians bought these for CAS, although this example didn't seem to have any hardpoints (other than the fueltanks) or guns. Looks vaguely familiar doesn't it.... ;D

 

[GDawg]

source/link?

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/01/will-the-ov-10-ride-again.html

I found that link on the wiki page for the Bronco.

 

[Journeyman]

Seen. Thanks.

 

[Loachman]

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/01/will-the-ov-10-ride-again.html

I found that link on the wiki page for the Bronco.

The most significant words that I saw on that link are "Boeing is apparently pitching..."

Like Viking is pitching a resurrected Buffalo.

 

[GDawg]

The most significant words that I saw on that link are "Boeing is apparently pitching..."

Like Viking is pitching a resurrected Buffalo.

We sure got a lot of conversational mileage out of that one. I bet there is a forum in the States going mental about a theoretical purchase of a Brazilian plane vs. a currently non-existent American plane that no one has formally asked for?

 

[observor 69]

North American Rockwell OV-10 Bronco is a turboprop-driven light attack and cargo aircraft. Although it is a fixed-wing aircraft, its mission capabilities resemble a fast, long-range, inexpensive and reliable ultra-heavy attack helicopter. It flies at 244 knots (452 kilometers/hour), carries 3 tons of external munitions, and easily loiters for 3 or more hours. It is prized for its versatility, redundancy, load, wide field of view, short-field ability, low operational costs and ease of maintenance."

"The OV-10 has been used by the United States' Air Force, Marines and Navy, the military forces of several other nations, and the U.S. Customs Service, Bureau of Land Management, NASA and California Department of Forestry. There is at least one airplane in private hands as well.
http://wiki.flightgear.org/index.php/North_American_OV-10A_Bronco

Been following this thread. What's wrong with this one, sounds pretty good ?

Just askin'


Edit: Oh ya they don't make them anymore ! But if a "similar" aircraft, Tucano  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_EMB_314_Super_Tucano,  is in production or this one was put back into production ?

 

[McG]

Been following this thread. What's wrong with this one, sounds pretty good ?

The answer, while not specific to your plane, has been given:

O2s won't give long endurance or carry a useful weapon load, and you have to train a pilot whose skills would be put to better use flying something with more practical value. They are also a niche aircraft that could well be completely irrelevant in future conflicts. This is not Vietnam, geographically, threat-wise, or technologically any more than it is WWII, WWI, or Agincourt, and I see no value in resurrecting ancient machinery of any sort. F15s and B1s can do what they can do, and carry real weapons too, and perform in a full-blown modern war.

 

[Loachman]

While three tons is nothing to sneer at, what does this give us that we do not already have, what are we willing to give up in order to get it, and why is no other major Western military force interested?

I am not a Griffon fan, but I'd happily trade a bunch for an equal number of OH58D or even AH64 or AH1Z. I'd not trade a single one for a half-dozen of these things, however. Besides, although some of the extreme nutters amongst you might get off on the Bronco troop delivery technique I'd suspect that most would prefer the helicopter.

Modern warfare is not supposed to be an exercise in nostalgia.

I've always been partial to Spitfires and Mosquitos though...

 

[observor 69]

Thanks for the reply Loachman. Turbo prop a/c are appealing for their speed and carry weight and the plus factor of eyeballs vice UAV/UCAV. Apparently those qualities are appealing to other countries also but as you say in our situation there are other factors to feed into the equation.

 

[Loachman]

Bombers are faster and carry plenty. Eyeballs aren't worth much at 20,000 feet. That's what the sensors are for, and they can go on anything currently in our inventory. The platform is less important than the sensors and weapons.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Turbo prop a/c are appealing for their speed and carry weight ....

But you don't necessarily get the advertised speed while carrying the advertised maximum load.

 

[McG]

British - U.S. study affirms V-22 Osprey effectiveness

An independent British -- U.S. study jointly assessed the potential for the V-22 to meet current and future U.K. vertical airlift requirements. The requirements for this study were based on the Royal Navy's Future Amphibious Support Helicopter program, as well as the U.K.'s recent Strategic Defence Review.

The Defence Evaluation Research Agency, or DERA, the privatized research arm of the Ministry of Defence, located in Farnborough, United Kingdom, along with TRW, Inc. of Fairfax, Va., evaluated the V-22s operational capability versus that of conventional helicopters using three scenarios. The high-resolution combat results models demonstrated the potential benefits to the UK of three key tiltrotor attributes: speed, range and survivability.

"The superior speed of the tiltrotor dramatically improved the rate at which troops, weapons systems and supplies were delivered to the landing zones," said John Buyers, Bell Boeing program manager at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md. Speed also reduced exposure to air defense threats and increased aircraft and payload survivability in the simulations, he explained.

Increased mission radius capability allowed the assault ships to operate well away from land-based anti-ship missile batteries and naval mines according to the report. On land V-22s permitted deeper operations and enhanced survivability as mission planners routed the aircraft around known air defense threats.

The study also indicated that the V-22 had utility in performing eight ancillary missions, in particular ship-based Airborne Early Warning, Aerial Tanker platform and Strategic Self-Deployment.

The first scenario evaluated was an amphibious assault performed by the Royal Marines as part of a U.S.-led coalition force in the Persian Gulf. In this scenario, the performance of the V-22 was evaluated solely against that of the medium-lift helicopter. DERA and TRW determined that this would be the most likely competitor for the V-22 in the assault role. The study concluded that in the critical first six hours of the simulated assault mission, the V-22 delivered 41 percent more combat power to the landing zones than the medium-lift helicopter in this short-range scenario. At longer ranges the models showed the V-22 able to deliver the complete landing force in 15.7 hours less time, a 50 percent advantage, over the medium-lift helicopter.

The second scenario was a regional conflict inside NATO. In this scenario, the use of support rotorcraft in a number of possible fleet mixes was examined. The scenario showed that an all V-22 force of 27 aircraft could perform all the missions 45 percent faster than the base case of 40 helicopters (i.e., 16 heavy-lift, 8 medium-lift and 16 light-lift helicopters). For a raid on the enemy tank division headquarters, the speed of the tiltrotor allowed mission completion with 39 percent to 47 percent less time exposure to air defense threats. The increased exposure of the helicopters to surface-to-air threats, along with the inherent hardness of the V-22, meant that the helicopter alternatives suffered twice as many combat losses/casualties and had fewer aircraft remaining for subsequent operations.

The third scenario looked at a U.K.-led multi-national force tasked with conducting a non-combatant evacuation operation in Western Africa. With an equal number of three tiltrotors or helicopters, the speed of the tiltrotor allowed all civilians to be evacuated in the shortest period of time; overcoming even the larger passenger capacity of the heavy lift helicopter. The medium or light-lift helicopter would require almost two days to complete the same mission that the V-22 tiltrotor could do in less than 20 hours.

In every scenario the speed, range and survivability of the tiltrotor allowed it deliver more combat power faster, more effectively and with fewer combat losses than would helicopters.

If only V-22s were used to meet the military needs of these three scenarios, DERA modeling showed that based on Strategic Defence Review operational requirements, between 42 and 62 V-22s would be required for the UK.

The first production MV-22 made its public debut by landing on the Pentagon parade grounds in September, providing orientation flights to several congressman and defense officials during an all day static display of the Bell XV-15 tiltrotor.

The Osprey will provide a multi-mission, multi-service versatility and capability to U.S. forces by beginning with USMC initial operational capability in 2001. It is capable of carrying 24 combat-equipped personnel or a 15,000-pound external load. It also has a strategic self-deployment capability with 2,100 nautical mile range with a single aerial refueling. Its vertical/short takeoff and landing capability allows it to operate as a helicopter for takeoff, hover and landing. Once airborne, the engine nacelles rotate forward 90 degrees, converting the V-22 within 20 seconds into a high-speed, high-altitude (25,000 feet), fuel-efficient turbo-prop aircraft.

http://www.helis.com/Since80s/h_v22ukus99.php

 

[Colin Parkinson]

U.S. Eyes Super Tucano for SpecOps Work


http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3989450&c=AME&s=AIR

Also posted by Ex-Dragoon    http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/84732.0

Will be interesting to see how it works out.

 

[Rinker]

Wow, I was just going to mention the osprey. Though I do think it is very limited in a ground attack role. But if they found newer ways to mount weapons on it etc. And it good be an attack heli/plane it would be perfect for transportation and then just have it hang around for the guys on the ground to call in strikes or have it do its own thing. But thats just me I really don't know much about these things.

 

[daftandbarmy]

After talking to some people who've recently returned from Afghanistan, it sounds like the Reaper RPV is the way to go for CAS. They were very complimentary about it's performance in a gunfight.

 

[Loachman]

Limited weapon carriage.

No low-level capability.

More sensitive to weather than many other things.

 

[McG]

Wow, I was just going to mention the osprey.  ... it would be perfect for transportation and then just have it hang around for the guys on the ground to call in strikes or have it do its own thing.

The more missions you attempt to fit a single platform for, the less effective it is going to be in any given one of those missions.  Trying to make the Osprey an Attack & Transport platform is probably not a good idea.  Transport capacity would be reduced to accommodate external weapons load, and the firepower would be limited so as to not consume all the payload mass the aircraft can lift.  Because you want this vehicle to loiter on-call to support, increased fuel requirements will also be competing with weapons & transported troops/goods for a portion of that max payload limit.

Your omni-role Osprey will (far more often than not) be flying missions heavier and with more external sources of drag than the Osprey currently has to contend with.  This will have a negative impact on speed, range, manoeuvrability, and all flight characteristics.  As a result, many of the platform's weaknesses would be exaggerated.

There is a reason that fixed and rotary wing aircraft have traditionally (for the most part) had distinctly seperate aircraft for transport and fighting roles.  The Osprey does not need to become a omni-role aircraft.  What it might need is an attack tilt-rotor counterpart ... maybe.

 

[Cleared Hot]

After talking to some people who've recently returned from Afghanistan, it sounds like the Reaper RPV is the way to go for CAS. They were very complimentary about it's performance in a gunfight.

One of my pet peeves from theatre is that with the rest of the military (outside the FAC/fighter communities) finally being seriously exposed of air-ground operations, every time someone drops a bomb it is referred to as CAS.  And don’t even get me started about CCA vs. Rotary wing CAS.  Just because an aircraft releases ordnance does not mean it is doing CAS.  Make no mistake, the MQ9 has killed a lot of guys who needed killing but most of the time it is doing so in a role other than CAS.  It really is a much better armed ISR platform than it is a CAS one.  In addition to the limfacs Loachman points out, its slow speed makes it much less responsive (time wise) and it also causes other limitations I won’t go into here.  That being said, if I was going out on patrol for the day and I didn’t know if/when we were going to get bumped, I would want a Reaper above me for the whole mission as opposed to trying to guess at the right 1.5 hour window to ask for a fast mover to check-in.  Conversely, if I get to set H-hr for a pre-planned op, I’d rather choose when to have the 15E with sniper pod check in.

In the end, MQ9s, B1s, A-10s, F15s, etc. are all great airframes with the ability to do CAS (in addition to many other tasks) and each has their individual strengths and weaknesses (in relation to those tasks) but no one airframe is “the way to go”.  While admittedly (and largely because) you don’t always have the choice as to what will check in, knowing the capabilities and limitations of each and using the right tool/TTP for the situation is what FACs get paid to do and we always get the job done.

 

[MarkOttawa]

New Sturmovik?

Air Truck AT-802u
http://www.makli.com/air-truck-at-802u/

Paris Air Show will be privileged this year when Air Truck AT-802u makes its debut. Air Tractor AT-802u is a new single-engine turboprop utility aircraft prototype and is fully armed. “Air Tractor, Inc” division of agricultural planes has designed this aircraft AT-802 and is widely used for agricultural duties. U.S State Department has been using this aircraft in Latin America by the for drug elimination duties. Air Tractor Inc. has now changed its agricultural plane into a warfare plane; this AT-802u has the ability to counter attack, observe and investigate. The AT-802U is the replica of popular Air Tractor AT-802 but it has been customized significantly for a light attack potential against permanent, fixed and moving targets.

The two-seat, tail-dragger might emerge as prehistoric, but features a powerful design with plentiful power, which is supplied by a 1,600shp (1,190kW) engine. AT-802u weighs 7,260 KG and can carry a payload of 3,720 Kg, this means AT-802u can carry up to nine 225kg precision-guided bombs such as “Hellfire II and DAGR laser-guided rockets” and 50-calibre gun pods. According to the manufacturers this aircraft fully qualifies as an aerial firefighter, it means that it is designed for high agility at low speeds and low-altitude.

Air Truck AT-802U can carry a number of weapons that include “M260 rocket launchers”, “Mk 82 500-pound bombs” and GAU-19/A three-barreled 12.7-mm Gatling guns.

AT-802U aircraft is perfect for rocky operational surroundings for example “Afghanistan”, but it could also be significant from the Air National Guard.

Mark
Ottawa