Close Area Suppression Weapon (was Company Area Suppression Weapon)

[daftandbarmy]

I guess this is what a contact looks like when the good guys don't have access to light mortars....


Inside a Taliban Ambush

Some good footage I found over at Militaryphotos.net that shows a Taliban ambush and the protracted U.S. response.
Big rounds impacting the rocks, Talibs not aiming, calling for single shots in Arabic, wearing chest rigs and combat boots, no US air called in…
It’s an intriguing look at a fight in Afghanistan from a perspective we rarely get.

Read more: http://kitup.military.com/2011/03/inside-a-taliban-ambush.html#ixzz1G3JYR6E3

 

[GnyHwy]

I bet the good guys are saying to themselves " I wish we had a CASW.  Maybe even some timed ammunition". 

A mortar could work too but, not with the same rate of fire, accuracy or time to effective rounds on target. 

They're all over the target with their DF weapons but can't seem to get them out of their hiding spots.  Pelt that area with 40mm grenades and you'll see them scatter out in the open where the DF weapons can get them. 

2 choices for the bad guys here.  Run and die or stay put and die.

For this situation, CASW wins hands down.

 

[vonGarvin]

I bet the good guys are saying to themselves " I wish we had a CASW.  Maybe even some timed ammunition". 

A mortar could work too but, not with the same rate of fire, accuracy or time to effective rounds on target. 

They're all over the target with their DF weapons but can't seem to get them out of their hiding spots.  Pelt that area with 40mm grenades and you'll see them scatter out in the open where the DF weapons can get them. 

2 choices for the bad guys here.  Run and die or stay put and die.

For this situation, CASW wins hands down.

I call 'bullshit'.  How are you going to lug around several 20+ kg tins of that 40mm ammo?  Have you even seen one of these things?

 

[GnyHwy]

I guess if you make the assumption that they are dismounted, then they are not likely to have lugged a mortar and all the tubed ammo either.  If they are mounted then they could have either.

 

[vonGarvin]

I guess if you make the assumption that they are dismounted, then they are not likely to have lugged a mortar and all the tubed ammo either.  If they are mounted then they could have either.

Here we go again.

Do you even know how much a 60 mm (light role) weighs?  The ammo?  (You probably do)


Do you even know much much an AGLS C-16 weights?  The ammo?  (You probably don't)


In short, the C16 is too heavy to manoeuvre dismounted.  The 60mm is rather appropriate for the role.  Need evidence to support that wild theory?  See "Afghanistan, 2006 - present: Canadian Forces."

If they are mounted, well, we already have 4 x 25mm chain guns, the ability to move about, protected, etc.  So, the mounted part, let's keep that out of the equation.

 

[R031button]

I guess if you make the assumption that they are dismounted, then they are not likely to have lugged a mortar and all the tubed ammo either.  If they are mounted then they could have either.

Mortar rounds can be broken up amongst a platoon and then collected fairly easily. Linked 40 mm, and I'll admit that I've never used those particular rounds but I assume it's something close to any other link in the world, would be extremely difficult to do that with. 

 

[Illegio]

The GMG + tripod together weigh something like forty kilos. That stretches the definition of "man-portable" by no small measure. The 60mm in the light role weighs what, ten?

Considering the terrain in which that video was taken, it's a no-brainer in my mind which is the more attractive choice.

 

[GnyHwy]

If they are mounted, well, we already have 4 x 25mm chain guns, the ability to move about, protected, etc. 
So, the mounted part, let's keep that out of the equation.

Why should we keep that part out if it?  Are we to say that the .50 cal is not effective because it is difficult to dismount?  To limit this thread to a Plt-- dismounted patrol scenario would certainly guarantee it's failure and this thread would have ended 22 pages ago. 

Do you even know how much a 60 mm (light role) weighs?  The ammo?  (You probably do) Do you even know much much an AGLS C-16 weights?  The ammo?  (You probably don't)

You're almost correct with these statements.  I have never hauled a CASW around.  I have seen the specs and have a good understanding of the ballistics. 

I have dismounted the 60mm as well as the .50 cal. The CASW, I'm guessing would be similar to the .50cal (dismounting the .50 was one of the sillier things I've ever done and yes, it did suck). 
Personal disclaimer:  "I am not an experienced Infanteer" but, I have humped enough of this stuff and enough of my own radios and tech gadgets to know how much it sucks.  I am a fire supporter, which is why I find interest in this and the Inf attack thread.  I have stated earlier in this thread as well as the Inf attack thread, I see it used as a firebase weapon on the offence.  Having it for defence is a no brainer.

The GMG + tripod together weigh something like forty kilos. That stretches the definition of "man-portable" by no small measure.

I agree.  This would be similar to our "man-portable" radar that comes in 3 bags and weighs as much as a large midget.  I am not trying to make an argument that the CASW is good for dismount nor am I arguing that it should replace the 60mm.  I am trying to bring attention to the fact that the CASW would provide a different dimension of fast and effective suppressive fire that would be organic to the Coy. 

The Afghanistan BG structure has lead us to believe that we always have Arty guns at the ready and that there are jets on standby waiting for a TIC.  The unfortunate reality is, a Plt or Coy in contact should never assume that they will have either of those assets to support them immediately (maybe not even at all).

Perhaps try this criteria, dismounted or mounted.

Mobility
Accuracy
Lethal Radius
Time from tgt Id to effective rds on tgt
Rate of Fire
Number of effective rds per minute
Time to effectively engage 3 targets
Moving Targets
Amount of ammo on posn and resupply.
Reliability

Feel free to add your own criteria or correct mine if you think it's not valid.

 

[R031button]

Why should we keep that part out if it?  Are we to say that the .50 cal is not effective because it is difficult to dismount?  To limit this thread to a Plt-- dismounted patrol scenario would certainly guarantee it's failure and this thread would have ended 22 pages ago. 

Because the GMG is being billed as the replacement for the 60mm mortar, which is a platoon asset. The order doesn't include kit to mount them to vehicles, so it will be used dismounted, and presumably at the platoon level. Nobody said the .50 isn't effective but I ask you this, can it be set up quickly on the advance? Whats the man power bill to effectively employ it? Compare that to the 60mm. It is worth noting that most armies still employ mortars at the platoon and company level, the AGL's and .50's are usually grouped as a battlion asset, I can only assume this is reflective of the complexity of using them.

The Afghanistan BG structure has lead us to believe that we always have Arty guns at the ready and that there are jets on standby waiting for a TIC.  The unfortunate reality is, a Plt or Coy in contact should never assume that they will have either of those assets to support them immediately (maybe not even at all).

All the more reason to keep indirect fire within the platoon and company.

 

[ArmyRick]

I have oodles of 60mm mortar expirience (and a decent amount of 81mm time)...

The 60mm mortar in light role (yah the oldy goldy we in the CF use) can be put into action as quick as a someone can spot the target. Note the crew does not have to see the target (They can take direction from the eyes on). An expirienced crew can put rounds on target in 2-4 rounds. You can haul a decent amount of 60mm ammo around in a platoon.

The 40mm CASW? If its not mounted on a vehicle or set up static in an OP or FOB, then no thank you. I have had my expiriences hauling around stupidly heavy things and I don't welcome the idea of dragging around the CASW. For dismounted fight, we don't need the CASW.

Actually since we are going to talk about dragging around support weapons on foot, what was that arty piece that 2RCHA used to have? 105mm L5 or something like that? Why don't we have the troops lug that around?

Maybe we don't need it because we have other pieces of kit that can do the job, right? IMO, our 60mm or a newer 60mm would be more optimal as a platoon support weapon.

as far comparing it to the radar? Two completely different assets. One is for ISTAR and is for engaging enemy.

 

[vonGarvin]

I have dismounted the 60mm as well as the .50 cal. The CASW, I'm guessing would be similar to the .50cal (dismounting the .50 was one of the sillier things I've ever done and yes, it did suck). 
----
PThe Afghanistan BG structure has lead us to believe that we always have Arty guns at the ready and that there are jets on standby waiting for a TIC.  The unfortunate reality is, a Plt or Coy in contact should never assume that they will have either of those assets to support them immediately (maybe not even at all).

Very sage words.  Dismounting the C16 AGLS (this is that which used to be called CASW) is akin to dismounting the .50.

Perhaps try this criteria, dismounted or mounted.
Mobility
Accuracy
Lethal Radius
Time from tgt Id to effective rds on tgt
Rate of Fire
Number of effective rds per minute
Time to effectively engage 3 targets
Moving Targets
Amount of ammo on posn and resupply.
Reliability

Feel free to add your own criteria or correct mine if you think it's not valid.

Sounds good; however, it must be remembered that if any of those criteria are considered a "fail", then that system ought to be excluded.  For example, the M777 would win on all criteria, except for mobility.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Mortar rounds can be broken up amongst a platoon and then collected fairly easily. Linked 40 mm, and I'll admit that I've never used those particular rounds but I assume it's something close to any other link in the world, would be extremely difficult to do that with.

... and the CASW doesn't have white phos. Where's the fun in that?

 

[a_majoor]

Just for some perspective, the .50 HMG was used in the dismounted role in WWII by the US army, requiring a dedicated three man crew to carry the broken down weapon and an entire eight man infantry squad (section) to escort the thing on the move and carry the ammunition. (I might be off on the numbers, but the figure will be fairly close to what I remember).

I would expect a CASW/C-16 to use up the same amount of manpower (minimum) to get in and out of action. OTOH I have carried a 60mm strapped to my ruck (not exactly the most fun thing I ever did) and had a partner carrying rounds in his ruck, along with everyone in the platoon carrying one round or one belt for the GPMG; a very impressive amount of firepower and no consumption of manpower from other tasks.

Once again, I am all for AGLs, especially ones which are the same size and weight of a GPMG (such as the Russian and Chinese ones), and I would also be a big fan of the CIS .50 HMG to replace our current M-2's.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm guessing that ol' Smudger would have been OK if these guys had put a 60mm MOR into action against these bad guys. The target area looks like it's about 600m away, perfect for a light mortar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jyk7e0VMwmw&feature=related

 

[McG]

Some propaganda from the project:

 

[McG]

... and more:

 

[OldSolduer]

sigh.....who made this one ?

 

[McG]

sigh.....who made this one ?

Is it wrong?

 

[OldSolduer]

... and more:

The statement "collateral damage is not acceptable"
It smacks of "if you make an error you'll be crucified"

 

[R031button]

I'm more curious as to why it's shown engaging a guy with a Styer AUG in the first picture. Are we planning on a NATO intervention on the Gold Coast some time soon?