Clothing stores complaints

[SupersonicMax]

Fraying at the collar is nothing more than a cosmetic issue. The item is still perfectly good at doing what it's designed to do.

Is it your interpretation or is it policy?

 

[gcclarke]

I would love to see a Cdr/Capt(N)/Commodore on TV in NCDs with a frayed collar, and when asked why his uniform didn't look like it was in good, professional order, he responds with "Well, the supply team said that, other than frayed collars, all my shirts were still serviceable, and were therefore not eligible for replacement, so, here I am!"

Oh wait, that wouldn't never actually happen.

I doubt that they would respond in such an unprofessional manner. And even more so, I highly doubt anyone would notice or care enough to ask.

This is inside baseball. The only people who give a hoot about frayed collars are other people in the CAF. The public doesn't care about a bit of white showing at the collars; they've got more important things to worry about, like /]the cost of ships when we're throwing money at the Irvings[/url], or the ongoing sexual harassment problems in the CAF, white supremacists,[/url] racists and other bigots in the CAF, our ability to respond to worsening disasters due the effects of climate change, etc etc. That's of course assuming that they care about anything related to us.

It's an error to assume that every member of the public has the same priorities as the Cox'n. Honestly I find that the CAF as a whole is really bad about this. We need to focus our efforts more on the things that Canadians care about, and less on the things that only we give a crap about. Too much time and effort is wasted on stuff that doesn't actually matter at all.

Is it your interpretation or is it policy?

Policy; at least the last time I overheard someone trying to make a replacement for that reason it was. Minor wear or staining doesn't do anything to prevent you from using the NCDs. Similar to how you can't exchange CADPAT just because it's started to fade a bit.

Link removed per site guidelines. - mm
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/99046.0.html

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don't see a problem with an NCD shirt being exchanged for a frayed collar.  I don't think its unreasonable that our people be kitted with clothing that is up to par; and a frayed collar falls outside side of that and as such should be exchanged.  We are expected to upkeep a standard of dress and deportment. 

Having said that, a CoC does not decide that "used but serviceable" clothing will be exchanged for brand new.  As well I may have miss understood Lumber as meaning exchanging old styled NCDs for the new styled NCDs, in which you would only be getting if you are part of a trial program.

Either way, you would be surprised how much you can get when people talk and work out details instead of simply showing up at a counter and demanding something.  Plead your case, we are well aware the Supply don't and cant cover every scenario, we can bend things when it makes sense.

 

[Lumber]

I doubt that they would respond in such an unprofessional manner. And even more so, I highly doubt anyone would notice or care enough to ask.

This is inside baseball. The only people who give a hoot about frayed collars are other people in the CAF. The public doesn't care about a bit of white showing at the collars; they've got more important things to worry about, like [url[/url], or the ongoing sexual harassment problems in the CAF, white supremacists,[/url] racists and other bigots in the CAF, our ability to respond to worsening disasters due the effects of climate change, etc etc. That's of course assuming that they care about anything related to us.

It's an error to assume that every member of the public has the same priorities as the Cox'n. Honestly I find that the CAF as a whole is really bad about this. We need to focus our efforts more on the things that Canadians care about, and less on the things that only we give a crap about. Too much time and effort is wasted on stuff that doesn't actually matter at all.

Oh right, I forgot about the racists and bigots! And here I was about to polish my shoes for the parade this Friday, but now that you mention climate change and irving I guess I'll just hold off. I'm sure the Parade Chief will understand why I decided to wear the shirt that has a hole in it. I mean, I'm not posted to a ship, so fire retardantness really isn't a factor anyway.

So, I guess we'll have to disagree. If I had a member of my unit who was going to be interviewed on local television in NCDs (for example), I would be extremely unhappy if he was wearing a a uniform that was not in good repair. Forget frayed collars, what if it was simply stained? Do we really want sailors walking around in public in dirty and disheveled uniforms?

I can get behind the idea that it would be too expensive to replace every uniform for every stain or frayed collar, and I'm not advocating for that. But when it comes to activities like media interviews (both ad hoc and official), "sailor of night" hockey games, foreign exchanges, hosting foreign dignitaries etc, I think it's fully appropriate to expect that our uniforms be in top shape, both in terms of appearance and serviceability.

I agree with those who have said a phone call or an email chain between the CO and base supply to lay-out the requirements would be the best and most appropriate route; however, I disagree with the insinuation that all requests should be turned down simply because we have more important things to worry about than how our uniforms look to the public.

Link removed from quote per site guideline.
https://army.ca/forums/threads/99046.0

 

[dapaterson]

If someone is to appear in public... if only we had uniforms intended for wear in public.  We could even make them distinctive for each environment, and not confuse them with uniforms we wear for greasy, dirty work.

 

[Lumber]

If someone is to appear in public... if only we had uniforms intended for wear in public.  We could even make them distinctive for each environment, and not confuse them with uniforms we wear for greasy, dirty work.

\

Well, bring that up with the higher-ups that have us doing everything in combats/NCDs/flight suits.

Also, what has been said above applies whether we are talking about combats or DEUs.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I doubt that they would respond in such an unprofessional manner. And even more so, I highly doubt anyone would notice or care enough to ask.

This is inside baseball. The only people who give a hoot about frayed collars are other people in the CAF. The public doesn't care about a bit of white showing at the collars; they've got more important things to worry about, like /]the cost of ships when we're throwing money at the Irvings[/url], or the ongoing sexual harassment problems in the CAF, white supremacists,[/url] racists and other bigots in the CAF, our ability to respond to worsening disasters due the effects of climate change, etc etc. That's of course assuming that they care about anything related to us.

It's an error to assume that every member of the public has the same priorities as the Cox'n. Honestly I find that the CAF as a whole is really bad about this. We need to focus our efforts more on the things that Canadians care about, and less on the things that only we give a crap about. Too much time and effort is wasted on stuff that doesn't actually matter at all.

Policy; at least the last time I overheard someone trying to make a replacement for that reason it was. Minor wear or staining doesn't do anything to prevent you from using the NCDs. Similar to how you can't exchange CADPAT just because it's started to fade a bit.

Link removed per site guidelines. - mm
https://navy.ca/forums/threads/99046.0.html

Clothing Stores at fighter bases has been ordered to exchange flight suits that are faded or with “minor” wear and tear for several reasons one the more important one being appearances.  So much that NATO-style flight suits had to be procured and issued to fighter pilots while the logistics caught up to the demand. 

Looking professional in the eyes of our allies is important.  Just like when a CWO hates seeing someone with dirty boots.

 

[gcclarke]

Clothing Stores at fighter bases has been ordered to exchange flight suits that are faded or with “minor” wear and tear for several reasons one the more important one being appearances.  So much that NATO-style flight suits had to be procured and issued to fighter pilots while the logistics caught up to the demand. 

Looking professional in the eyes of our allies is important.  Just like when a CWO hates seeing someone with dirty boots.

Again, I strongly believe that this is an example of CAF members focusing on things that only other CAF members consider to be important. The public doesn't care and it doesn't affect our operational capability, so why are we getting worked up about it?

It's operational dress, people are generally going to expect them to look like you've actually been doing things in them. Some oil stains, some paint, a bit of fraying or some fading, that's ok. It's not unprofessional to look like you've been working in your work dress. Hell, I'd say the opposite is more true. Literally nothing bad will happen if we just collectively decide to pull the stick out of our bums and stop focusing so much on looking pretty in the uniforms we're wearing when we do actual work.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Again, I strongly believe that this is an example of CAF members focusing on things that only other CAF members consider to be important. The public doesn't care and it doesn't affect our operational capability, so why are we getting worked up about it?

It's operational dress, people are generally going to expect them to look like you've actually been doing things in them. Some oil stains, some paint, a bit of fraying or some fading, that's ok. It's not unprofessional to look like you've been working in your work dress. Hell, I'd say the opposite is more true. Literally nothing bad will happen if we just collectively decide to pull the stick out of our bums and stop focusing so much on looking pretty in the uniforms we're wearing when we do actual work.

Oil, grease, etc are of concern if the item is expected to act as a protection layer in a fire, isn't it?

Sometimes, some of us want our operational dress replaced because, in my case, it is actually part of my dual-layer ALSE (Aviation Life Support Equipment), if if I have to fight a fire I don't really want any POL 'stains' to be burning thru my ALSE while I'm doing the holy-shyte shuffle.

Aren't NCDs also part of a fire resistant protection layer?

I agree with SSM;  when you show up at a multi-nation event and you're the only bunch wearing stained and frayed uniforms, you're likely going to stand out in a bad way. 

I know some people don't like CAF publications but....from 265.

A-DH-265-000/AG-001, Canadian Armed Forces Dress Instructions, is issued on authorityof the Chief of Defence Staff.

High standards of dress, deportment, and grooming are universally recognized as marks of a well-trained, disciplined and professional force. Commanders shall maintain the standards at all times to reinforce these characteristics for peace or war.

A military force’s uniform is an outward symbol of its commitment, identity and ethos. Coupled with overall appearance, the uniform is the most powerful visual expression of pride by the individual service member, and is the primary means by which the public image of the CAF is fashioned.

Don't agree with the above?  Make a suggestion for change!  ;D

Suggestions for revision shall be forwarded through the chain of command to the Chief of the Defence Staff, Attention: Director History and Heritage

It's odd to me for Navy folks to be saying "there should be no special treatment or such made for COs", etc when a CO wants one of his Jr Officers to be well turned-out when doing an exchange, considering the RCN Comd and CP01 have been walking around sporting Gucci kit that folks conducting operations don't have access to, like in pictures like this.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Again, I strongly believe that this is an example of CAF members focusing on things that only other CAF members consider to be important. The public doesn't care and it doesn't affect our operational capability, so why are we getting worked up about it?

It's operational dress, people are generally going to expect them to look like you've actually been doing things in them. Some oil stains, some paint, a bit of fraying or some fading, that's ok. It's not unprofessional to look like you've been working in your work dress. Hell, I'd say the opposite is more true. Literally nothing bad will happen if we just collectively decide to pull the stick out of our bums and stop focusing so much on looking pretty in the uniforms we're wearing when we do actual work.

Just like the '50 mission cap' from the US 8th Air Force, right?

"Downie explained to Steve Newton in 1992 that he liked a different angle to the story: "In World War Two, when you were a new pilot, you'd be given a new hat. Of course, you'd work it in to look like a fifty mission cap so as to appear that you had more experience than you really did." http://www.hipmuseum.com/fifty.html

 

[mariomike]

Just like the '50 mission cap' from the US 8th Air Force, right?

A better look than pant seats worn out from being "chair-borne". 

 

[gcclarke]

I know some people don't like CAF publications but....from 265.

Don't agree with the above?  Make a suggestion for change!  ;D

The crux of my argument is that we should be focusing upon two factors: whether or not if affects operational capability, or whether or not the public (being our bosses and all) care. And that we should stop focusing time and effort on things that only people in the CAF care about.

The fact that we have a publication that issues a whole lot of regulations about a particular topic only proves that it's something that the CAF cares about; it doesn't prove it's part of the former group of stuff that we should be caring about. 

As for making a suggestion for change, if I'm ever in a position whence I could effect such change I'll certainly do so. Until then, arguing about it on the internet will have to suffice.

It's odd to me for Navy folks to be saying "there should be no special treatment or such made for COs", etc when a CO wants one of his Jr Officers to be well turned-out when doing an exchange, considering the RCN Comd and CP01 have been walking around sporting Gucci kit that folks conducting operations don't have access to, like in pictures like this.

I mean, I think it should be pretty clear that I'm arguing against the status quo of the way we do things. I think the CAF's priorities with regards to focus upon appearance over substance are broadly wrong, and I would prefer it if a cultural change were to take place to change those priorities. The Kraken walking around in brand new work dress that has never been worked long before they're rolled out to everyone else who would actually use said new uniform in is just a symptom of those currently existing priorities.

Style over substance is not a virtue I endorse.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I mean, I think it should be pretty clear that I'm arguing against the status quo of the way we do things. I think the CAF's priorities with regards to focus upon appearance over substance are broadly wrong, and I would prefer it if a cultural change were to take place to change those priorities. The Kraken walking around in brand new work dress that has never been worked long before they're rolled out to everyone else who would actually use said new uniform in is just a symptom of those currently existing priorities.

Style over substance is not a virtue I endorse.

As long as Snr leadership 'sets the example', that example will be followed?

This isn't limited to the RCN;  it really irks me to know that co-workers can't get a flight suit, then I see pictures of groups of Sqn HCol's getting a tour of a Wing...some of them in brand-spanking new flight suits.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I'm reasonably sure that we can manage to get operations done while not looking like ragged, oil splattered soup sandwhiches; they aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

Everywhere I've worked has had dress codes, but only the CAF has actually provided a clear, easy to follow directions.  Go work in a professional setting, and be prepared to spend a few thousand a year on clothes. I've never actually had a problem trading in worn out NCDs in three different locations, and yes, even when they were just a frayed collar and ripped pocket. Try working in a standard office in business dress everyday for a while and you will really appreciate how easy (and cheap) it was to pull on the uniform and go.

Anyone who has deployed has been told that they are ambassadors for Canada, and after giving god knows how many tours of the ship (alongside or at sea) to NATO allies from OS up to three stars, as well as ambassadors, heads of business, and civilians from all walks of life, was pretty obvious that we are part of the diplomatic arm when we're showing the flag. Sending people on exchange without kit in good repair is terrible for their morale, as they start on the back foot with everyone looking down on them.

Some QMs are miserable human beings, but a lot of the times the customers are huge douchebags. I've never had an issue (except the size not being available) and find it's as simple as being polite and treating them with respect. If you explain what you are doing, usually not a problem.

As an aside, there are guidelines for contamination of the uniform where it becomes hazmat and should be exchanged.  For example, if there is a fuel spill and someone gets covered, their NCDs should be bagged and exchanged for new. Similarly, if you get a whack of paint on you, your just ruined the fire protection, so they should be exchanged as well.  This is where common sense for the supervisors should apply, and either give people coveralls, or let them wear old gym clothes etc while painting.

 

[mariomike]

Everywhere I've worked has had dress codes, but only the CAF has actually provided a clear, easy to follow directions. 

The SOP where I worked was pretty clear and easy to follow,

"Uniforms must be clean, pressed, and neat in appearance. Only the top button of the shirt may be left unbuttoned.
The black issued safety boots/shoes must be kept clean and polished black."

Because they were sending you into people's homes, you had to look presentable.

Due to the nature of the business, frequent uniform changes were necessary. The City paid for all cleaning. Always had a fresh supply in your locker.

Dress uniform in a suit bag at home.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Some QMs are miserable human beings, but a lot of the times the customers are huge douchebags.

And here is part of the issue, IMO; the 'customer' idea.  If I am in Clothing Stores, I'm not there 'buying things from a business'.  I had a discussion once with the Clothing Stores Sgt over an issue...during our talk he said at one point "I have the authority to direct a Col to leave my building if he is being hard on my supply techs".

He said it like he believed it.  I said "why don't I go get my CO and SCWO...you can try that out on them". 

Sometimes, there isn't enough "military" left in our military these days.

 

[dapaterson]

You mean like the CO and SCWO not obeying the supply orders that the Sup Techs are enforcing?

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Not in the situation I'm talking about.  ;D

 

[Halifax Tar]

And here is part of the issue, IMO; the 'customer' idea.  If I am in Clothing Stores, I'm not there 'buying things from a business'.  I had a discussion once with the Clothing Stores Sgt over an issue...during our talk he said at one point "I have the authority to direct a Col to leave my building if he is being hard on my supply techs".

He said it like he believed it.  I said "why don't I go get my CO and SCWO...you can try that out on them". 

Sometimes, there not enough "military" left in our military these days.

Your Stores Sgt defiantly does not have the authority to order a LCol or CWO out of a building, thats ridiculous.

But he does have a professional obligation to follow and enforce the rules and regulations governing the control and accounting of Material in the CAF, this includes clothing.

Having almost 21 years as a Sup Tech and more than haircut spent working a Clothing counter the abuse that is sometimes dished out is completely inappropriate.  I suspect any service trade in the CAF has to deal with this (HRA/FSA ect ect).  I blame our (The Supply Trade's) leadership for allowing this to happen.  Accountability is a wonderful thing.

I have told other POs and Chiefs that certain LS are no longer welcome at the stores office door before, outside of the most extreme circumstances.

So to sum up, order them out ? No.  Decline their request, if no entitled exists, yes.

 

[mariomike]

When I was in a PRes service battalion, our Supply Techs had a simple saying, "Don't f*&^ with Stores."