CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[dapaterson]

Mr Trudeau has even bought two of the the future KC -330's although Liberals gotta Liberal so its the civilian version for now.

To be fair: there is no Airbus MRTT ground up production line. Airbus builds A330-200s then sends them to the mod line. They also have modified aircraft which were in revenue service before conversion. Canada is doing nothing usual here, other than being proactive during an industry downturn to get relatively low hour, recent aircraft at a significant discount.

 

[DBNSG]

To be fair: there is no Airbus MRTT ground up production line. Airbus builds A330-200s then sends them to the mod line. They also have modified aircraft which were in revenue service before conversion. Canada is doing nothing usual here, other than being proactive during an industry downturn to get relatively low hour, recent aircraft at a significant discount.

Oh I agree but have the Liberals done this or have they been MADE to . I think our eventual fleet will be a rare Canadian force multiplier especially on this side of the Atlantic and with the retirement of the KC- 10 fleet down South. Literally loads of fuel that
replaces a couple of KC 46 Pegasus in terms of fuel offload.

 

[dapaterson]

The replacement of the Wardair AAR / transport fleet has been on the books for years. Again, in a rare fit of common sense, the decision to acquire more AAR platforms to support NORAD modernization will be done in line with that replacement project, so there wil be (gasp) a single fleet, not a bifurcated fleet with different a/c (which would require different sparing, training, etc etc).

 

[KevinB]

The replacement of the Wardair AAR / transport fleet has been on the books for years. Again, in a rare fit of common sense, the decision to acquire more AAR platforms to support NORAD modernization will be done in line with that replacement project, so there wil be (gasp) a single fleet, not a bifurcated fleet with different a/c (which would require different sparing, training, etc etc).

So an accident you say

 

[Spencer100]

No offense, S100, but I think you’re totally wrong on this one.

It may look like Liberalmaskirovka, but have no doubt, that unlike NATO waiting for his Highness to prance in 5 minutes late to a key discussion on NATO resolve, the US’ tolerance for such blatant security free-loading ended a while ago…I’ll posit again that Canada is “on orders” from America to GTFOWI, to wit: F-35s, SPY-7, NASAMS, and…soon to come…P-8A. Trudeau can carry on with Kabuki all he wants, but the P-8A purchase will happen WELL BEFORE the next election…

I live my life hoping I'm wrong. I don't get much hope.

I just think the PR blasting is just more than the company.

Yes I think anyone with a brain would just pick the P8 and move on.

 

[Spencer100]

Or, maybe they needed airframes now so they got some to do the airlift and convert to AAR later.

The PM need airlift now....FIx it for you.

I would point to the conversion timeline. The VVIP upgrade first then the AAR years in the future.

RCAF was smart to get the PMO to want a VVIP upgrade.

 

[KevinB]

I live my life hoping I'm wrong. I don't get much hope.

I just think the PR blasting is just more than the company.

Yes I think anyone with a brain would just pick the P8 and move on.

If I was a betting man, I’d say the ink is dry with Boeing already and the GoC is waiting a favorable time to announce.

 

[Furniture]

I live my life hoping I'm wrong. I don't get much hope.

I just think the PR blasting is just more than the company.

Yes I think anyone with a brain would just pick the P8 and move on.

As I said before, I expect the noise is mostly about  appearing to fight for the Canadian company.

I wouldn't be surprised if it came out later than the GoC intentionally pushed an announcement partly to allow the provincial governments to make some noise, so they can call in a favour with the provinces later.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

More PR machines working overtime.

MSN

I'm starting to move the 50/50 odds for Boeing v Competition to 60/40 for a competition with Bomber in it.

I would call Block 3 a success. I would not use that word with Block 4.

Hood is delusional on the Aurora reality, disconnected with the reality of "post-Block 2" world because he didn't live/breathe it. Like most Generals, he has some fantasy idea of how a piece of kit actually works and the people below him aren't willing to speak the truth, so the filters applied between Sqn and RCAF Comd create fantasies.

He is oblivious to serviceability issues or is just leaving them out intentionally. They are significant. No one cares if your ASW kit is "modern" if it's sitting on a ramp waiting for the MRP to arrive.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If I was a betting man, I’d say the ink is dry with Boeing already and the GoC is waiting a favorable time to announce.

I'd put a $10 bet on "official word before (canadian) Thanksgiving".

 

[FSTO]

I would call Block 3 a success. I would not use that word with Block 4.

Hood is delusional on the Aurora reality, disconnected with the reality of "post-Block 2" world because he didn't live/breathe it. Like most Generals, he has some fantasy idea of how a piece of kit actually works and the people below him aren't willing to speak the truth, so the filters applied between Sqn and RCAF Comd create fantasies.

He is oblivious to serviceability issues or is just leaving them out intentionally. They are significant. No one cares if your ASW kit is "modern" if it's sitting on a ramp waiting for the MRP to arrive.

The lack of knowledge of our chattering class is really evident by the dearth of questions to Bombardier about their Vapourware Paper Plane.

 

[OldSolduer]

If I was a betting man, I’d say the ink is dry with Boeing already and the GoC is waiting a favorable time to announce.

I sure hope so. This discussion about that millstone Bombardier that keeps sucking money from the GoC is tiresome.

 

[Good2Golf]

Strange that Bombardier didn’t seem *too interested in submitting a proposal for CMMA back when the government had issued a request for proposals by industry to replace the CP-140, open for compliant responses for…you know…several years…

 

[Spencer100]

Strange that Bombardier didn’t seem to interested in submitting a proposal for CMMA back when the government had issued a request for proposals by industry to replace the CP-140, open for compliant responses for…you know…several years…
View attachment 78912

You are right. But just to be devils ad. First Bombardier has now just about stabilized after their near death. They sold or shutdown 75 percent of the company. They kept the profitable large biz jets. And are selling well. But they need growth now. Mission aircraft is really the only area they can get it. They can't develop a totally airplane anymore. Pages back I showed the size of the market.

It is logical for them to move in this direction.

Then you asked about the timing it's because they can now.
The agreement with the government than they would not be a defence contractor is over when they exited the commercial airliner business. To funding for their airliner programs etc. They agreed to stay in the civil side.

Yes they did have some mission side jets but they were basically green aircraft sold to the defence contractor.

This is the first time in living memory they are pitching a Bombardier Defence as the prime. Yes the mission systems are the real important stuff and really the most money but they will take GDMS's bill add a mark up.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You are right. But just to be devils ad. First Bombardier has now just about stabilized after their near death. They sold or shutdown 75 percent of the company. They kept the profitable large biz jets. And are selling well. But they need growth now. Mission aircraft is really the only area they can get it. They can't develop a totally airplane anymore. Pages back I showed the size of the market.

It is logical for them to move in this direction.

Then you asked about the timing it's because they can now.
The agreement with the government than they would not be a defence contractor is over when they exited the commercial airliner business. To funding for their airliner programs etc. They agreed to stay in the civil side.

Yes they did have some mission side jets but they were basically green aircraft sold to the defence contractor.

This is the first time in living memory they are pitching a Bombardier Defence as the prime. Yes the mission systems are the real important stuff and really the most money but they will take GDMS's bill add a mark up.

Strange that Bombardier didn’t seem to interested in submitting a proposal for CMMA back when the government had issued a request for proposals by industry to replace the CP-140, open for compliant responses for…you know…several years…
View attachment 78912

Those pesky “HLMRs”…

 

[daftandbarmy]

I sure hope so. This discussion about that millstone Bombardier Quebec that keeps sucking money from the GoC is tiresome.

I think that's what you really meant to say...

 

[Rifleman62]

Hood: This replacement project, otherwise known as Canada’s Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) procurement , has been planned by government for years and was always intended to be an open, transparent, competitive process.

Good2Golf: Strange that Bombardier didn’t seem to interested in submitting a proposal for CMMA back when the government had issued a request for proposals by industry to replace the CP-140, open for compliant responses for…you know…several years…

 

[Good2Golf]

Then you asked about the timing it's because they can now.
The agreement with the government than they would not be a defence contractor is over when they exited the commercial airliner business. To funding for their airliner programs etc. They agreed to stay in the civil side.

“Good day, PSPC. I see that there was an interesting RFP that closed several weeks ago, but notwithstanding that the solicitation period has ended, and that I don’t meet all the mandatory requirements, I would like you to re-open the tender and allow me to submit my non-compliant proposal, so that the GoC customer can revise their requirements and accept my offer.

With best regards,

signed,
Good2Golf”


I can’t believe I missed out on all those great opportunities to get some of my taxes back…

 

[Spencer100]

I think that's what you really meant to say...

Well that's the really rub now isn't it?

But here is the long and short

After WWII and the late 50's (Arrow anyone?) The powers that be decided to not develop a Canadian defence industry as in a major prime (like be aware of the "MIC") Canada has no BAE, or Leonardo or even a Rheinmetall. We have some major subsystem suppliers and branch operations of the majors. The total industry is good size but there is no large "hometown" hero. With no MIC to lobby the government of the day, the government did not have to worry about the defence budget to maintain "Jobs" or the like from the big Canada MIC. Oh yes over the last 60 years governments have used DND projects as political tools. You can name many many, Western Star, LAV's, Irving, IMP, etc etc. But never a plan and never with a Canadian Prime. This is very much the goal. No MIC Canada no taking political hits from that side.

After General Dynamics sold Canadair to the Gov at the end of the CF-5 contract. As crown corp the government moved the company to civilian production only. Thus ending any the company's dependency on military projects. Yes did sell the odds and ends to the government. Fast forward to Bombardier. Mulroney government wanting to sell the Crowns from the Trudeau Sr years, goes to family friend and Quebec Inc. leader and dumps Canadair on Bombardier. Mulroney gets a big thump in the head over the CF-18 maintenance contract from Bristol to Bombardier (which is was the start of the Reform party etc.) So Bombardier has a good idea enlarge the Challenger into an 50 seat regional jet. Go to the government for money....the quid pro quo....no military side of the business.

Fast forward Bombardier had no defence division (yes maintenance and pilot training at times) till just the last one or two years. They saw the market growth too.

I can go on...

I love industrial history.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Well that's the really rub now isn't it?

But here is the long and short

After WWII and the late 50's (Arrow anyone?) The powers that be decided to not develop a Canadian defence industry as in a major prime (like be aware of the "MIC") Canada has no BAE, or Leonardo or even a Rheinmetall. We have some major subsystem suppliers and branch operations of the majors. The total industry is good size but there is no large "hometown" hero. With no MIC to lobby the government of the day, the government did not have to worry about the defence budget to maintain "Jobs" or the like from the big Canada MIC. Oh yes over the last 60 years governments have used DND projects as political tools. You can name many many, Western Star, LAV's, Irving, IMP, etc etc. But never a plan and never with a Canadian Prime. This is very much the goal. No MIC Canada no taking political hits from that side.

After General Dynamics sold Canadair to the Gov at the end of the CF-5 contract. As crown corp the government moved the company to civilian production only. Thus ending any the company's dependency on military projects. Yes did sell the odds and ends to the government. Fast forward to Bombardier. Mulroney government wanting to sell the Crowns from the Trudeau Sr years, goes to family friend and Quebec Inc. leader and dumps Canadair on Bombardier. Mulroney gets a big thump in the head over the CF-18 maintenance contract from Bristol to Bombardier (which is was the start of the Reform party etc.) So Bombardier has a good idea enlarge the Challenger into an 50 seat regional jet. Go to the government for money....the quid pro quo....no military side of the business.

Fast forward Bombardier had no defence division (yes maintenance and pilot training at times) till just the last one or two years. They saw the market growth too.

I can go on...

I love industrial history.