CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

[dimsum]

It IS unfortunate we didn't snag that last white tail, absolutely...

But $250M!??? Holy Moley!!

Yeah. C-17s aren’t cheap.

Also, I don’t think Trenton could physically park 25 C-17s. Even if we farmed them off to the other Herc bases, I doubt that we could handle that fleet plus the C-130Hs and Js.

I’m not a Transport person, but IMO the C-17 isn’t a viable 1-for-1 replacement for the Hercs - there are some things that the Hercs can do that the C-17 can’t. Off the top of my head, most of our allied nations (USAF, RAF, RAAF, etc) that have C-17s haven’t replaced their Herc fleet with them.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yeah. C-17s aren’t cheap.

Also, I don’t think Trenton could physically park 25 C-17s. Even if we farmed them off to the other Herc bases, I doubt that we could handle that fleet plus the C-130Hs and Js.

I’m not a Transport person, but IMO the C-17 isn’t a viable 1-for-1 replacement for the Hercs - there are some things that the Hercs can do that the C-17 can’t. Off the top of my head, most of our allied nations (USAF, RAF, RAAF, etc) that have C-17s haven’t replaced their Herc fleet with them.

Ahem. Mirabel.

 

[DBNSG]

It IS unfortunate we didn't snag that last white tail, absolutely...

But $250M!??? Holy Moley!!

And 250 Mill amortized over the life of the Aircraft is peanuts for a First World massive Nation. To Kevin B 's point we should have bought at least 12-15. With that, can anyone see Canada buying any contracted but unwanted A 400's? Spain seems to not want all 27 of their contracted A/C.

 

[dimsum]

Ahem. Mirabel.

Sure, but the other part (that I forgot to mention) is where would we get the aircrew and maintainers to effectively create 2-3 more Transport sqns from? We all know the issues in recruiting and staffing the CAF as it is (or was, in the early 2000s).

And 250 Mill amortized over the life of the Aircraft is peanuts for a First World massive Nation. To Kevin B 's point we should have bought at least 12-15. With that, can anyone see Canada buying any contracted but unwanted A 400's? Spain seems to not want all 27 of their contracted A/C.

Same questions apply to the extra C-17s. Where would we put them, and where do we get the personnel for them?

But looks at thread title I digress.

 

[Kirkhill]

This from 2018.

The U.S. Defense Department (DOD) has launched a congressionally mandated study to determine how many refueling aircraft, transport planes and cargo ships it will need to support future military operations.

US Begins New Study on Future Military Aircraft Replacement - Avionics International

The U.S. Defense Department (DOD) has launched a congressionally mandated study to determine how many refueling aircraft, transport planes and cargo ships it will need to support future military operations. […]

www.aviationtoday.com

U.S. Transportation Command (TRANSCOM) said March 29 that the Mobility Capabilities and Requirements Study (MCRS-18), which began March 8, will conclude this fall. TRANSCOM is conducting the review with DOD’s Cost Assessment and Program Evaluation (CAPE) office.

Now if only some Canadian had thought to create a multi-domain Transportation Command.

 

[Kirkhill]

Sure, but the other part (that I forgot to mention) is where would we get the aircrew and maintainers to effectively create 2-3 more Transport sqns from? We all know the issues in recruiting and staffing the CAF as it is (or was, in the early 2000s).


Same questions apply to the extra C-17s. Where would we put them, and where do we get the personnel for them?

But looks at thread title I digress.

Digression acknowledged but - commonality.

I acknowledge the aircrew difficulties but how about using civilian maintainers and reserve pilots?

 

[YZT580]

Ahem. Mirabel.

CFB North Bay

 

[YZT580]

And 250 Mill amortized over the life of the Aircraft is peanuts for a First World massive Nation. To Kevin B 's point we should have bought at least 12-15. With that, can anyone see Canada buying any contracted but unwanted A 400's? Spain seems to not want all 27 of their contracted A/C.

When we bought the C17's I thought that they were all white tails. The line either had been closed or was in the process of closing. If that were the case 12 a/c would not have been in the cards.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

My understanding is that, at the time Canada bought its C-17, while the end of the production run was in view, no closing down action had yet begun and it was still in full production. Had Canada asked for 12 to 15, it could easily have been handled by extending the forecasted date of the closing of the line.

 

[GK .Dundas]

According to what I have read and heard , Boeing was willing to keep the line open . Providing they could get orders for as few 10 to 15 more aircraft.
Now there was a push in variety of countries to buy a couple more but they just couldn't get inertia going and time ran out.

 

[FSTO]

My understanding is that, at the time Canada bought its C-17, while the end of the production run was in view, no closing down action had yet begun and it was still in full production. Had Canada asked for 12 to 15, it could easily have been handled by extending the forecasted date of the closing of the line.

Maybe Bombardier had successfully lobbied the government that they could produce a cheaper, longer range C17 at half the cost. Then promptly forgot?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Maybe Bombardier had successfully lobbied the government that they could produce a cheaper, longer range C17 at half the cost. Then promptly forgot?

I still remember the fuss created by various pressure groups complaining . Mostly about the Government not even trying to find another company. One that could build us a C 17 type of aircraft.
Preferably Canadian I'm assuming.
I kept wanting to ask the critics . ...if being that stupid actually hurt ?

 

[Good2Golf]

My understanding is that, at the time Canada bought its C-17, while the end of the production run was in view, no closing down action had yet begun and it was still in full production. Had Canada asked for 12 to 15, it could easily have been handled by extending the forecasted date of the closing of the line.

Correct OGBD, in ‘06 the line was still open, but Boeing was telegraphing an end of production in the early 20-teens. Incremental cost would likely have been in the 2-3B CAD range, not insurmountable, but not an easy-button then. Many nations that now wish they had bought more (or some) were seduced by the A400M and some anti-US sentiment at the time…and made their choice. 17 is a beast, very capable and flexible. Would have loved to see Canada get more (to pay homage to the ‘Amateurs discuss strategy, professionals discuss logistics’ maxim), but at least we increase our capacity 25% while we still could.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Had we even bought three and kept them in storage where we could cycle them through the fleet reducing air frame hours.

 

[YZT580]

According to what I have read and heard , Boeing was willing to keep the line open . Providing they could get orders for as few 10 to 15 more aircraft.
Now there was a push in variety of countries to buy a couple more but they just couldn't get inertia going and time ran out.

could this be what Bombardier is playing for? Run the clock until Boeing closes down, then they are more or less guaranteed the sale.

 

[Good2Golf]

could this be what Bombardier is playing for? Run the clock until Boeing closes down, then they are more or less guaranteed the sale.

Boeing will last longer than 20 Oct 2025…that, and rumblings around the Beltway indicate that Uncle Sam is loosing his patience with Canada’s stalling getting on with Pacific and Euro participation. I figure the hand goes up the puppet’s behind before Christmas.

 

[KevinB]

could this be what Bombardier is playing for? Run the clock until Boeing closes down, then they are more or less guaranteed the sale.

Well we could always JDAM Bombardier and consider it a vital national security task for both countries…

 

[suffolkowner]

from Wikipedia on the C17 we bought 4 originally and then later added a 5th, we could of added more at the time as they were available, now the only possibility is the A400 or switching the NATO C17s to A400 and picking up the C17

"On 5 July 2006, the Canadian government issued a notice of intent to negotiate with Boeing to procure four airlifters for the Canadian Forces Air Command (Royal Canadian Air Force after August 2011).[123] On 1 February 2007, Canada awarded a contract for four C-17s with delivery beginning in August 2007.[124] Like Australia, Canada was granted airframes originally slated for the USAF to accelerate delivery.[125] The official Canadian designation is CC-177 Globemaster III.[126]

On 23 July 2007, the first Canadian C-17 made its initial flight.[127] It was turned over to Canada on 8 August,[128] and participated at the Abbotsford International Airshow on 11 August prior to arriving at its new home base at 8 Wing, CFB Trenton, Ontario on 12 August.[129] Its first operational mission was to deliver disaster relief to Jamaica following Hurricane Dean that month.[130] The last of the initial four aircraft was delivered in April 2008.[131] On 19 December 2014, it was reported that Canada intended to purchase one more C-17.[132] On 30 March 2015, Canada's fifth C-17 arrived at CFB Trenton.[133] The aircraft are assigned to 429 Transport Squadron based at CFB Trenton."

Just order the 16 P8's already though really. The only other country that sucks this bad at military procurement is probably India

 

[Eye In The Sky]

If Canada had 16 x P-8's, 9 x MRTT's and 25 x C-17's our allies would see us as a key partner rather than a laggard because we'd be able to provide key logistics support that many of them are lacking themselves. Direct combat power isn't the only way we can usefully contribute.

We actually need more than 16 CMMAs. My opinion differs from the “official” one…

 

[CBH99]

CFB North Bay

We're trying to recruit people now, remember?