Combined MESSES

[E31]

Presently serving in Kabul where we share a mess with the Officers. I have 20 years in , am 41 and do not wish to spend my time relaxing listening to some 20something Officer whine about how rough HIS FIRST TOUR is. So what ever happened to "the only mess you earn your way in" !!! Thanks 23 , out.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Concur.   I have 19 years in and I have little desire to sit around all night listening to country music and whinning about ex-wives...  

No seriously- I'm not a huge fan of combined messing for any reason.   Each rank level has a different culture and each rank level needs someplace to blow off steam, bitch, or just watch TV without overly worrying about what either the troops or your boss might think.

Good luck in Kabul, 23.

 

[E31]

Even some of us 40 something guys don't like CW , and yes some of us are still married ( even after 6 tours overseas) , but you're right all Troops (no matter what rank) deserve a traditional mess. One of the few traditions we have left.  :gunner:

 

[pbi]

I agree also. (haven't we already debated this on another thread, back before Christmas?) The rank groups should be given separate places to socialize. Unfortunately, the combined mess has become increasingly common on operations, as has the combined dining facility in garrison. I guess somebody has decided that the cultural needs of the Army (because this is largely an Army concern...) are less important than saving money on infrastructure.

Cheers.

 

[Big Bad John]

1) In the field, I prefer to mess with my "family" rather than with the other Officers.

2) Unfortunately we all have to put up with young Subalterns.

3) Extingencies(sp?) of the field lads.

 

[X Royal]

Agreed combined messes are a bean counters way of saving money. All three messes should   be on there own. Even combined dining facilities are  not proper. Feed everyone the same but in different places. The only acceptions to the above are in the field or in very small dets.   In larger bases like Petawawa   I see   no need to feed the three groups in the same hall.

 

[pbi]

Big Bad John: I was using the term "Mess" in its booze-drinking sense, and "dining facility" in its garrison sense. I understand eating together when you are in the field and eating IMPs or out of a flying kitchen. Cheers

 

[043]

My 2 Cents,

Now I know you guys are a sensitive bunch here however, I disagree with Combined Messes, whether it be for eating or for drinking. It goes along with troops hanging with troops, NCO's hanging with NCO's, and Offr's hanging with Offr's. Familiarity breeds contempt and that is a fact. People say " well we can do it and still be professional at work" but in reality, other soldiers see it and that causes problems.

And besides, especially overseas, who wants to drink and eat with people that you are stuck with 24/7?

 

[Calculator Jockey]

The term "messes" mean drinking establishments and not the kitchens and dining halls in my response below.

My take on combined messes are that they are final nail into the Esprit de Corps of the CF. As a former PMC of a Jr Ranks' Mess, I saw other ranks come into our mess as guests; for the most part most of them understood they were guests and knew when to leave. Unfortunately you get those that don't know where the line is drawn and go over it. I in my history have had two senior NCOs suspended from entering the Jr Ranks' because they over stepped their boundaries.

I am against any combined mess. My mess is my "get away from the office and home" a "Free Zone" in essence. Somewhere where I can vent my frustrations about my supervisors, senior leadership, the "system" or problems at home and not have to worry about repercussions against me in the workplace.

If you have a combined mess it is no longer a get away; fine yes there are three separate areas for the Jrs, NCOs, and Officers and then a general area for all to hang out if they so desire. But then you have lost the tradition and privacy of each mess. One always wonders if the walls have ears or who happens to be passing by the entrance way to the separate areas, etc.

But these are my own opinion after being a Jr Rank for 16 yrs and having done my time as PMC on top of it to see how not only my mess works but also see how the other two conduct themselves.

As for overseas, I say a definite NO for combined messes. Too much stress over there, one doesn't need to see one's supervisors or subordinates 24/7. The troops need a "Free Zone" where they can release their frustrations and stress.

 

[pbi]

In Kabul there is a separate JRC. It is the Officers and WOs/Sgts who are combined. Cheers.

 

[Big Bad John]

Big Bad John: I was using the term "Mess" in its booze-drinking sense, and "dining facility" in its garrison sense. I understand eating together when you are in the field and eating IMPs or out of a flying kitchen. Cheers

My mistake!  I know that we supposedly speak the same language, but sometimes I need a dictionary.

IMHO Officers should defer in Wet Mess usage to their Sgt's & WO's.  An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.  The sharing of Wet Messes is not a good thing for morale and as has been already noted, is usually thrust upon us by bean counters of the bureaucratic bent.

 

[NCRCrow]

A combined mess would never happen in a million years in the Navy.

Snotters in the COXN's Mess and vice versa. (scareeeeee!!!!!!! thought)

The sanctuary of the CPO's Mess to get business done and socialized is such a sacred privilege. That is earned and respected.

It is a Navy tradition. That will stand.

We do on occassion have Hangar parties in foreign ports that are open to everyone and a riot. Because everybody understands the rules of engagement.

When I was in Kabul for Roto O, I was pretty surprised to see a combined mess, but with two beer limit, it was pretty tame.

NCR Crow

 

[aesop081]

Quick question for everyone here:

What about the MCpl Rank......When i was still a MCpl and a section comander, i did not have the rank to be in a separate mess from my troops.   I was thus drinking with the same guys i would have to write up at PER time and stuff like that, i therefore had no real place to go to get away from my soldiers and "bitch and complain" out of their earshot. To add to that, when i was an instructor at CFSME , i was sharing a mess with the QL3s i was teaching.......not always a fun situation to be in.

I know in Chilliwack, there was a separate mess for the MCpl......

The reson i am asking ( please dont shoot me) is that at that rank i always felt like i was getting it from both ends of the spectrum, especialy when i was in a Sgt's position.

Am i making any sense........

Thoughts ?

 

[Armymedic]

What about the MCpl Rank......When i was still a MCpl and a section comander, i did not have the rank to be in a separate mess from my troops.  I was thus drinking with the same guys i would have to write up at PER time and stuff like that, i therefore had no real place to go to get away from my soldiers and "***** and complain" out of their earshot. To add to that, when i was an instructor at CFSME , i was sharing a mess with the QL3s i was teaching.......not always a fun situation to be in.

I have to agree with you on that. The positions a MCpl is in can really suck at times, particularly in the mess. But I chalk that up to learning to deal with your friends who are now your subordinates. Thats never an easy line to walk.

But having MCpl in the Jr ranks brings a level of maturity that it would not have with out them.

 

[pbi]

An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.

Sadly, no longer in our Army, at least not on ops. Consumption of fizzy outside the mess itself is verboten.

When I was in Kabul for Roto O, I was pretty surprised to see a combined mess, but with two beer limit, it was pretty tame.

Then you would have loved the Army a few years ago when the policy was "no booze on ops. period." What is the Navy's policy on ops?

But having MCpl in the Jr ranks brings a level of maturity that it would not have with out them

When I started Regimental duty in 1983, 3 PPCLI had a MCpls club in the JRC at Work Point Barracks. IIRC these clubs for "Jacks" died out because the MCpls didn't like them. I agree that it is a tricky path for a young NCO to walk: I have seen more than one of them flattening the CO's carpet because they forgot where the line was. Cheers.

 

[Big Bad John]

[/An officer can always have a drink with a contemporary in his or her Basha.

Sadly, no longer in our Army, at least not on ops. Consumption of fizzy outside the mess itself is verboten. color]

Officers should be considered adults, I mean even 2Lt's are supposed to be adults.  That was the way it was explained to me when I passed out of the course.  Of course back then we were still dodging the odd wild dinosaur, but the principle still applies in the Forces in the UK.  I mean even on my first posting to Oman, where we weren't allowed alchy in country,  we had our daily medicinal tots. 

 

[pbi]

Officers should be considered adults

All soldiers should be considered adults, until they prove otherwise. That's what the QR&Os on Drunkenness are for. However, like most things, you need to understand the full historical perspective. The Canadian Army that I joined as a young Reserve soldier in 1974 was a very hard drinking Army: it would probably have put the Brits in the shade. I know from personal experience that our drinking terrified Americans who came up here. We drank in the field, at lunchtime, and after work on weekdays. Happy Hour meant "get pissed". We also had alot of alcohol related incidents, and a lot of alcoholics (we ran three detox centres) I lived all of this, until the early 90's when we suddenly  (in true military fashion) zoomed to the other extreme and banned booze on ops completely. Of course (as anyone might have guessed) this didn't exactly work either, as troops got hammered as soon as they went on R&R and were constantly getting arrested, in fights with police. Now, "booties" probably take this for granted, but our leadership didn't, so they decided to flex a bit and for the last few years we have had a "two can" rule for all. (I note that BritFor here in Kabul have the same rule: their JRC is called the "Toucan Club" in a sort of pun). Maybe we will be able, one day, to return to relying on good judgement and QR&Os. We'll see. Cheers.

 

[Big Bad John]

UK Forces have always had rules on the amount of drinking that you could do, especially in the field.  But having a rule for Officers on where, within the bounds of common sense, they could consume it is very, rare.  If you can trust a man with command, he should be able to use judgement on alcohol consumption.  Notice that I use the word should here.  There are exceptions to every rule.

 

[NCRCrow]

Navy:
2 Tins of Beer Per Day at Sea- 6-8 hrs prior to going on watch-

(Not to sure about the hours prior as I save mine 2 tins per day and make them up on a good run ashore)

In an SDA port area, it may 0 or two beer per day.

Being at sea is hard enough and I treasure my workout and rack time. I could not imagine having a beer in a sea state and I have 12 years of salt under my belt. Getting green thinking about. :dontpanic:

Liked the Bars at Warehouse/KNMB!

Crow

 

[a_majoor]

An observation: many messes I have encountered across Canada have been empty, since soldiers have access to "downtown", or have real lives with wives and families after work. The financial viabilitiy of separate messes is questionable under these circumstances.