Combined MESSES

[pbi]

An observation: many messes I have encountered across Canada have been empty, since soldiers have access to "downtown", or have real lives with wives and families after work. The financial viabilitiy of separate messes is questionable under these circumstances.

Sadly, this has been a developing problem for years. I can recall, as Adjt 1PP in the early 1990's, being posted at the door of the Mess to discourage officers from sneaking out of Happy Hour without paying compliments to the CO and PMC. Even then, officers were beginning to employ various excuses to get out of going altogether. When I became PMC of the Home Station Mess in 1995, it was worse. Attendance at functions was often spotty, and we never, ever, got more than 50% attendance at a Mess Meeting. If it wasn't for the Association members, the Mess would have gone under.

During the same period, we went through a Forces-wide review of the whole businesses of messes: whether we should have them at all, if they should be converted to US-type "clubs", or if people should be required to belong. Fortunately, the Mess system survived more or less intact, but it was a scary period.

The fact of the matter is, IMHO, much as a majoor has identified: people's lifestyles have changed. First of all, drinking (or at least drinking heavily) is no longer very acceptable. Most people in the RegF no longer live on base, and a goodly number commute quite a distance to base. Many people have social circles outside the military (I know I do) and many spouses now have careers with their own social demands. Personally I am fond of the Mess, and I think it can be a great place, but I also feel that it is gradually dying.

Cheers

 

[Big Bad John]

In the UK Messing and belonging to and supporting the same is mandatory.

 

[pbi]

In the UK Messing and belonging to and supporting the same is mandatory.

I served in the same battalion for eight years, under five different COs. I was PMC for the last eighteen months. The key thing to the survival of the Mess is, IMHO, the personality of the CO (and, I might add, "Mrs CO"...) If the CO worked hard to make the Mess a fun place and was a "people person", chances are the Mess did better. If the CO really didn't care, that usually translated into poor attendance and low interest. Unfortunately, to many Canadian officers now, "belonging" does NOT necessarily translate into "supporting".

My wife and I have been part of a mess since 1983. When we came to Winnipeg, where 2 PPCLI was stationed in the last remaining PPCLI mess, we felt that we had come home, even though I was extra-Regimentally employed. We were made to feel part of the Mess, which had a strong and lively life largely because of the personality of the CO. My wife, who had missed PPCLI mess life in our years of ERE, really enjoyed being part of it again. It was very sad for us when we attended the final dinner at Kapyong Barracks prior to closing the Mess as the battalion moved out of the city to Shilo. Today we drive by the empty Barracks and shuttered Mess and we realize what we have lost.

Cheers

 

[Radop]

Unfortunately, the combined mess has become increasingly common on operations, as has the combined dining facility in garrison.

What I really dislike is that in garrison they have officer/SNR NCO only areas but those ranks can choose to sit with the Jr NCOs if they want.  I think it should be all segragated or not at all.  In Warehouse we had all combined and there was no segregration.  We only had 450 troops on the ground and never had any problem with it.  Our sleeping areas were segregrated and that is were we bi****** about our bosses.  But for the most part, I agree the messes should be seperated.

 

[The_Falcon]

Not a big fan of combined messes.  However over the past 2 years or so Moss Park Armoury has been undergoing renovations of some sort that have required combined messing.  First the JR's mess had the flooring replaced about a year and half, two years ago.  This required our mess to be shut down for a few months.  For the first few weeks, the Sgt's Mess allowed us to go in have a few.  But the RSM decided not to continue this, which left us with no mess.  The 7 Toronto Sgt's mess was more than happy to allow us to drink in their mess, money was money and we paraded on Fridays so it would not conflict thier parade nights.  Fast forward to Sept 04 and the renovations (the entire building now) that started in June are now in the messes  (with the exception of the JR mess).  Despite being snubbed by the Sgt's and Officer's messes previously, we graciously allow our JR mess to become a combine mess (after all money is money, and it is getting more difficult to get people to stay in the Mess, considering we parade friday nights, and we are located in the Heart of Downtown Toronto).  However good the extra money was, it was kinda tense in there.  The JR were all on one side, SNCO's and Officers on the other.  They (SNCO's and Officers) happened to pick the side with the pool table and fooseball which kinda sucked.  Who wants to shoot pool and bitch about the RSM, CO, DCO etc.. when they are 2 feet from you.   

Now our mess is closed as well, so there are no messes to speak of at Moss Park.  The RSM said they will extend us the same courtesy we showed them ( : I believe that when I see it) because their mess will be finished first.  Just my experiences with combined messing.

 

[Chief Clerk]

Combined Messes save money - that is the only reason I can see many Bases going this route.  One infrastructure (one set of elect/water/etc bills), One set of barstaff (less wages to pay), Less Mess Managers.  Many have 3 small off shoots for the various ranks with one combined dance floor/etc.

In this day of cost reducing - would you rather a one Mess system or a new gym?  Hard questions to answer - maybe we should just take our hard earned money and take the family out to dinner DOWNTOWN

 

[pbi]

Combined Messes save money - that is the only reason I can see many Bases going this route.   One infrastructure (one set of elect/water/etc bills), One set of barstaff (less wages to pay), Less Mess Managers.   Many have 3 small off shoots for the various ranks with one combined dance floor/etc.

In this day of cost reducing - would you rather a one Mess system or a new gym?   Hard questions to answer - maybe we should just take our hard earned money and take the family out to dinner DOWNTOWN

In my opinion, this is the point of view that sees the Mess from a purely functional point of view: a place to drink or eat. Sadly, I believe that an increasing number of us see it this way. The professional/social/cultural side of it seems to me to be in danger. Is this really how most serving folks  on this site see their mess? Just a place to grab a beer that's slightly cheaper than hitting the pubs? Or is there some greater value in a mess, that can't be met by just "going downtown?"

Cheers

 

[aesop081]

In my opinion, this is the point of view that sees the Mess from a purely functional point of view: a place to drink or eat. Sadly, I believe that an increasing number of us see it this way. The professional/social/cultural side of it seems to me to be in danger. Is this really how most serving folks   on this site see their mess? Just a place to grab a beer that's slightly cheaper than hitting the pubs? Or is there some greater value in a mess, that can't be met by just "going downtown?"

Cheers

pbi,

I agree with you that there is a value to the mess that has gotten lost over the years.  I remember when i joined and went on my QL3 in Chilliwack, the JRC was the place to go on friday nights.  The whole base parcticaly came out and partied together.  It was a small base so everybody knew eachother.  Unfortunately , it seems the messes have fallen out of fav ours with the troops. Although i do not think we should do away from the messes, we, IMHO, need to revitalize them and make them more atractive to CF members. The "eating messes" are another story.  I see nothing wrong with using the same building for Jr NCOs, Sr NCOs and officers. Here in Winnipeg, the NCOs have a separate dinning hall than the Officers. Very often 1 mess is closed so we are combined and it seems to work ( as is the case now since the NCO kitchen is being renovated).

One thing that i have noticed since arriving here ( and being new to the air force) is that alot of the people i am freinds with are officers and with the current system it is impossible to "have a few" on base with them.  Even when we have meet-and-greets ( which are always held in the officer's mess), we seem to be treated as "out-of-place" since there are only 5 of us Cpls in an "officer's school".  In the army i never had to deal with this type of situation so i was not sure what to make of it.

 

[pbi]

pbi,

I agree with you that there is a value to the mess that has gotten lost over the years.   I remember when i joined and went on my QL3 in Chilliwack, the JRC was the place to go on friday nights.   The whole base parcticaly came out and partied together.   It was a small base so everybody knew eachother.   Unfortunately , it seems the messes have fallen out of fav ours with the troops. Although i do not think we should do away from the messes, we, IMHO, need to revitalize them and make them more atractive to CF members. The "eating messes" are another story.   I see nothing wrong with using the same building for Jr NCOs, Sr NCOs and officers. Here in Winnipeg, the NCOs have a separate dinning hall than the Officers. Very often 1 mess is closed so we are combined and it seems to work ( as is the case now since the NCO kitchen is being renovated).

One thing that i have noticed since arriving here ( and being new to the air force) is that alot of the people i am freinds with are officers and with the current system it is impossible to "have a few" on base with them.   Even when we have meet-and-greets ( which are always held in the officer's mess), we seem to be treated as "out-of-place" since there are only 5 of us Cpls in an "officer's school".   In the army i never had to deal with this type of situation so i was not sure what to make of it.

What do you think we could do to revitalize them? What makes messes "unattractive" to serving people today?

Cheers

 

[a_majoor]

What do you think we could do to revitalize them? What makes messes "unattractive" to serving people today?

The two keys are what I pointed out earlier:" Downtown" for the younger troops, and "real life" for the older ones. I have seen troops willingly pay $30 for a one way cab ride to Owen Sound rather than walk across the parade square in Meaford to the JRs, where there are videos, games, beers etc. At the end of the week, they just want to get away from the base, and really, so do I (In my case to go home to family).

My own evil solution: voluntary mess membership. If people want to join, they will. If mess comittees want people to join, they have to come up with something creative to appeal to soldiers. (This is obviously different for garrison locations in Canada than deployed camps overseas, where there is a lot less "downtown", and home and family is on HLTA, but you get the idea).

We can't order people to go to the mess and expect them to comply with a smile, unless you can entice them with something they want or need, they will not come, period. 

 

[pbi]

Hmmmm. I see what you are saying, but I'm not sure. I know that during the review of messes in the CF done a few years back, this was one of the options considered, although in the end we stayed with compulsory membership. My experience in RegF Officers' Messes is that unless it is a battalion mess (of   which I believe La Citadelle is the last one left in the Regular Army), only about 50% of regular members will ever participate. I suspect it may be somewhat higher for the WOs/Sgts Mess, and perhaps lower for the Ranks (but I don't know....). On this basis Messes as we know them might quickly become financially non-viable (a number of RegF messes have been close to that for a while, I think, kept afloat by Associates and rentals...). We might see the end of the Mess as we know it. Is that a good thing?

(I believe that a number of Res Messes are also struggling, if our Bde is any indicator.)

Cheers

 

[a_majoor]

I remember being berated in the London Sgt and WOs mess about the low turn out for events (5 members of a possible 140 or so), but given the choice, I choose family. That is a very hard hurdle to overcome.

You ask if closing the mess is a good thing? Maybe the question should be inverted and we can ask "what is the relevance of the mess?", or perhaps "why should membership be compulsory/". If you sat on the review of the messes, I would be interested to know if these questions were raised, and what the answers were?

 

[pbi]

I didn't sit on the review of Messes, but I was Home Station Officer's Mess (HSOM) PMC in Calgary 95-97(for my sins). During that time I saw a noticeable decline in attendance at everything from the AGM to Happy Hours. I saw the attitude of officers, particularly (but not exclusively...) junior officers take a turn for the worse as far as attendance was concerned. Only a relatively small cadre were true "supporters". As we prepared to leave the old Home Station to relocate the bn to Edmonton, the battalions (1 and 3) took an important decision: we decided we would not put our Colours in the Mess, probably the first time that a PPCLI battalion in garrison did not do so. Why? Because we did not identify with the new Base Mess: it was not our "home" so therefore not a place for the Colours.

As far as participation in the running of "their" Mess; well, our HSOM Constitution stated that a quorum was 50% of available officers. "Available"  being they key word, because if it required 50% of the total enrolled regular Mess members we would never have had a quorum.

Now, I could perhaps have put all this down to me being a crap PMC (OK---well---maybe I was....) except for the fact that I had served in that battalion since 1989 and it was just a continuation of a trend.

Where does that leave the issue? Well-I think that there is a need for a place like a Mess where, relaxing in comfortable setting, surrounded by the history of our units, we can meet each other on a (more or less...) level playing field within our rank group and act pretty much as we please, talk about whatever we like, and share some fellowship. It is also a great place to host friends and visitors in a way of saying "welcome to our family home". Does this require the elaborate Mess governance and NPF structure that we have had for years? I honestly don't know.

I fear that a majoor and others represent the truth, but I hope that they don't and that the good aspects of the Mess system can be preserved.

Cheers.

 

[George Wallace]

The Mess serves a very valuable purpose.   It at one time was the "Diningroom, Livingroom and Rec Room" for the single living in guys.   It was the Regiments "private" little corner or club where members could go and socialize with their peer.   It was also a place where one could go after a rough day at work, a bad day on tour, a bad night on patrol, or whatever might have caused a stressful or psychological problem and one could go 'cool down', 'unwind' or talk over a situation with one's peers and hopefully solve it.  

I have seen Happy Hours where 'poke chest' was being carried out, fists may have flown, but come Monday, the problems were solved and forgotten.   We live in stressful times.   Perhaps even more stressful than that of a decade ago.   Happy Hours and whatever pressure releases that they provided are gone.   I could never understand the "No Booze" policy suddenly inflicted on the troops in Bosnia by BGen Jeffries.   Guys would return from a Body Exchange and all the gore involved with handling Body Bags and retire to the Mess to relax with a couple of cans of Coke before heading off to bed - Yeah sure, that worked great.   They really got a lot off their chests and talked out their problems.   No wonder we have so many problems with PTS, there are no ways to unwind and release.

Messes do serve a vital function.   We need them to unwind.   We can't always do it downtown in a Civie Bar.

GW

 

[pbi]

Messes do serve a vital function.  We need them to unwind.  We can't do it downtown in a Civie Bar.

I think GW is on to an important point here, but some people might challenge it by saying that the activities we use to "unwind" are now very restricted.

Cheers

 

[Infanteer]

Also, you got to remember that a huge portion of the Army is young men who have one thing on their mind.  Can you blame them for wanting to get downtown.  I know why I went and hit up Whyte Ave instead of kicking around the JR Club at CFB Edmonton.

 

[bossi]

Do I dare chime in with my $0.02 ... or will I immediately be cuffed soundly around the ears and thrown out the door with my shooting stick ... ? (chuckle)

A few decades ago when I was a subbie, we'd stick around and enjoy the mess until midinight ... and if it was "dead" we'd make a mad dash to a commercial establishment for "last call" (... and take our chances vis-a-vis "go ugly early" ...).  However, if the mess was hopping, we'd stay there and enjoy it as if there was no tomorrow (and on a Friday night, quite literally this was true).

We enjoyed mess life, as it was meant to be - sometimes we'd even get together in the mess when it was closed (an experience duplicated in both St Hubert and Downsview when I lived in - the mess was indeed our home, as opposed to that tiny, crummy room in barracks ...).

And, as noted earlier, in Camp Warehouse our tents were in effect our "mess", where we could "get away from it all" and enjoy just hanging out with our peers (on several occasions, our tent got in trouble because we kept neighbouring tents awake with our boisterous laughter ... such was the good, clean fun we had in our little "family").

Whether on operations, exercises or in garrison, sometimes it's enjoyable to be able to socialise with our peer groups - after all, if you've just spent all day working with one set of people, sometimes it's nice to have a change of scenery ...

Also, I'm not in favour of "combine" messes - a unit mess is something to be treasured, and is a place where bonds are forged.

 

[dutchie]

For me, from a Res perspective, the mess is a very important part of my military life. We, at the Seaforth Highlanders Men's Mess, have traditionally had a 'spirited', well-supported, and lively mess. In the past, supporting the mess was compulsory (unofficially) to being accepted as a Seaforth. We've had great parties, fights, silly contests (usually involving questionable activity and beer), and a lot of fun. This helped 'sell me' on the Regiment, and made me want to excel at my job. There were times when the Mess was enough of a draw for me when the morale of the Regiment was dismally low (late 90's to 2001), that I would parade and go on ex just to support the guys, and get to the mess. The Mess today is not nearly as 'tight' as it once was. It's not taken as seriously anymore. Gone are the days when a young troopie was taken to task by his mates for not supporting them mess. We used to have to earn our way to full acceptance in the Mess, fetching ice, setting up tables & chairs, etc. Now we have to ask them to show up.

The Mess is crucial, IMHO, to the health of a Res unit.

Oh, and Combined Messes contradict everything I've been taught about 'frat' (not that kind) between troops and officers (or Sr NCOs/WOs). I don't want to drink with my OC, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to drink with me.

 

[pbi]

Are the traditional social aspects of all professions changing? Let me offer an example.

When I lived in Calgary, several of my friends were firefighters, most with 20-30 years of service. I can recall one of them relating that when he joined the CFD as a rookie, if you didn't move fast to buy your tickets to the Firefighters' Ball, you were out of luck. Now, he said, they couldn't give the tickets away.

Is there a relationship here? Is it a problem that is bigger than just us?

Cheers

 

[aesop081]

Are the traditional social aspects of all professions changing? Let me offer an example.

When I lived in Calgary, several of my friends were firefighters, most with 20-30 years of service. I can recall one of them relating that when he joined the CFD as a rookie, if you didn't move fast to buy your tickets to the Firefighters' Ball, you were out of luck. Now, he said, they couldn't give the tickets away.

Is there a relationship here? Is it a problem that is bigger than just us?

Cheers

I think you may be on to something there.......