Communications and Electronics Engineering ( CELE )

[rdschultz]

Ok, I've got a few.  These are pretty general and off the top of my head, so I apoligize in advance for the lack of thought if I ask a dumb question. 

What is the general frame between courses, or for the whole period of phase III/IV?  I read one account of the training schedule, and from what I gathered, basic to OFP was about 2.5 years?  Would this be a good estimate of what to expect?  You say that you're waiting to finish your training, so I assume this means that there is some time spent between courses during Phase III? 

Another question I've got concerns the type of training at the CFSCE.  Now I'm fully aware that I won't be doing the hard-core technical hands-on stuff (which seems fairly typical of many engineering graduates in the private sector as well), but could you elaborate on this snippet from the recruiting information?

"Emphasis will be placed on leadership, administration, and more advanced theory of communications and electronics and its application"

Even a brief guesstimate of the percentage of coverage that deals with each of the above three basic topics? 

One final question, that I have been unable to get a solid answer on (and I'm not sure if you can help), is the difference between the former CELE (Land) naming convention and the SIGS convention now used.  Any idea what prompted the change?  Was it simply a name change, or was there an overall change in the focus of the trade as well?  I received a letter with my flight information a few days ago that confirms my enrolment as a "Communication and Electronics Engineering Officer (84U)", so clearly the name change is still not completely in use, but I've always wondered why the change did take place. 

 

[spacedog]

I'm actually here waiting for Ph II.  I finished French school early, so they sent me here to wait to be sent to CAP.  After you're all done in St Jean (Basic & French), SIGS and CELE get posted to Kingston.  You then get attached posted to Gagetown.

There is generally a fair amount of time between courses, and from talking to people who are are a little ahead of me in the training, it sounds like the course dates aren't always the same every year as well.  For myself, it'll work out as follows:

Sept 03 - Dec 03 - Ph I Basic (St Jean)
Jan 04 - Jul 04 - French (St Jean) (this would extend to Aug unless you manage to pass your test early like myself)
Sept 04 - Dec 04 - Ph II CAP (Gagetown)
Jan 05 - May 05 - OJT (on the job training)
May 05 - Aug 05 - Ph III (Kingston) (can't remember exactly how long Ph III and IV)
Sept 05 - Dec 05 - Ph IV (Kingston)

So yeah, that works out to about 2.5 years.  Things can change though, especially if you fail a course and have to wait a few months for the next one.

With respect to the OJT.  We were recently asked to submit our 3 choices for preferred posting for the period between Ph II and Ph III.  I've also heard though that due to the large amount of privates awaiting training (and the lack of personnel to supervize them) that they might send us to Borden to babysit them while we wait for training   This would only be applicable to single guys though.

The training at CFSCE sounds really interesting actually.  You are right that you won't be doing as much hands-on technical stuff as the sigs ops, but you do get some exposure to it from what I've heard.  Most of the time will be spent in the classroom (ie. death by powerpoint).  There is one field exercise during Ph III (2 weeks) and I'm pretty sure they do it up in Petawawa.  In Ph IV, there are 2 or 3 shorter (4-5 days) exercises, some in Pet, some here.  I recently helped out on a Ph IV field exercise.  The candidates were being accessed as Troop Commanders (TPs) and Duty Signals Officers (DSOs).  It was a 5-day exercise, with a Brigade level scenario, in which the two groups of candidates represented two separate signals squadrons.  Basically, they were responsible for providing support for the notional bridage advancement.  They had to monitor the radio traffic, keep their maps up to date, get authorization from bridage hq for moves and locations of signals equipment, etc etc.  It was hard (8-hour assessment periods, back-to-back for 5 days = very little sleep ) but they all seemed to enjoy it.

As for the snippet.  Leadership and administration of your troops are big ones.  Sounds like you spend a lot more time on why you do something as opposed to how.  Same with the communication and electronics stuff.  It's going to be mostly the theories that we work with.

As for the name change, I got in just after they did that so I was never exposed to what it used to be like.  That's really interesting that they made that mistake on your flight information though.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[casing]

With regards to splitting CELE into CELE (Air) and Sigs O, here are a few documents that give excellent insight (hoser, I imagine you've already seen these).   The first one is a memo and is probably most informative for a quick overview on why the split was made.   Visit the links below in order to get to the actual document.

  - CELE Occupational Structure Implementation Plan
  - Career Flow Aspects of CELE OSIP Proposals
  - CELE (Air) Occupation Specification
  - SIGS Occupation Specification (The inside link says "CELE (Air)" but the document is Sigs O)

 

[JOHN LEE 27]

Helloww...
you ppl sems to know something about DEO recruiting process

I applied for CELE DEO and had an interview six months ago and the CFRC wants me to comeback for a update interview?
I did good in the first interview and why is that second one?
will I loose all the gains I had in the first one? is it going to be a "long" one like last time?

What can expect from this secon interview?

please hel me

 

[casing]

Interview results are only good for 6 months before they need to be "updated".   Your update interview will likely be much shorter.   Just going over any changes that have occured since your last one, and anything new you might want to add.

So, if you did your interview 6 months ago, was your file complete for the last selection in May?   In any case, good luck.

 

[JOHN LEE 27]

thanks casing
my file was almost complete for may but the ERC file did not come back from ottawa. mm so i missed the last board. it is sad since i started the process in August 2003. hopefully I get in this time.

 

[jeff_au]

"Do yourself a favour and don't worry about labels. From the men (NCM's), you'll rarely measure up"

I believe the first step in being successful in any trades whether your an officer or an NCM is not trying to live up to someone else's expectations. When someone is able to look up to you and aspire to be like you than you have truly master the meaning of leadership. Being an officer is all about leadership...not looking good in front of everyone.
Kings Town Jimmy was right about the fact that the men will get to do all the fun technical stuff like warfare electronics and encryption. It is also true that as an officer you'll be responsible for a lot of administrative burden but that's what were paid to do!
So far in my training I have been qualified for C7, C9 and 9mm. If you want to get more qualifications than simply join some marksman club at the range and learn more about different types of weaponry...it is not the responsibility for the CF to set you up with some hobbies
All I know is the Sig's guys are usually the most popular crew because everyone wants to go on the internet or make a phone call where ever they go.

Cheers,
Jeff
Sig O

 

[WD One]

Jeff,

Good reply. Being a Jimmy at any level is one of the most challenging and rewarding parts of the CF. Proffessionalism is the hallmark.

WD1
VVV

 

[KaptKain]

Hi all,

Like many people here, I am in the process of applying for officer in CF. My choice is Signals Officer.

I talked to my recruiter, memorized official CF website and left no thread unturned on this forum. However, I still have unanswered questions concerning my future profession.

-what status/image do Sig Officers have in the army? Are they labelled as paper pushers by Navy/Air?
ALL OFFICERS ARE PAPER PUSHERS DURING PEACE TIME IN THE ARMY PRETTY MUCH, UNLESS POSTED OVERSEAS (Some action put in place of the pen, just some though)
-can I expect to participate in combat?
If we are at war or a hostile UN tasking, then yes, possibility is action there.
-do Sig Officers get weapons practice after they finish their training?
ALL MEMBERS of the CF have basic weapons training, but if you want weapons specialty then go Infantry/Arty/JTF//Air Defence (fill in any one I forgot to mention guys/gals)
-I am a bit crazy about crypto and computer security. Should I expect to see that as part of my day-to-day activities?
NO, NOT UNLESS YA ARE INCHARGE OF A CRYPTO TEAM AT A AIR WING SQUADRON..THEN THATS A MAYBE. OR IF YOU ARE A POSSIBLE ISSO..THEN AGAIN THE SGT/WO HANDLES THE WORK...OFFICER MAINLY SIGNS DOCUMENTS THERE AS WELL
I would appreciate unofficial, straight-from-the-source answers.

Thank you!

I filled in what I know. But mainly, officers get good pay for their signatures a few times a day, and their grammer checks on NCM leave passes. Other then that maybe 5%(if that even) of officers do any of the work you inquired about above.
If they do any of the job taskings you mentioned above then its behind closed doors, with only a few NCMS to get them coffee.


I am writing this from 12 years NCM experience...and having a brother and brother in law that are/were officers in the forces (Sub. O and Maint O).

 

[Gilligan]

Now, you may or may not take this with a grain of salt.   I am a Res Sig Op Cpl currently, and what you do after your courses is entirely dependant on you.   Over the summer I was staff on the BSOC phase III, and wow, you can tell right off the bat who will make a good officer, and who has potential, and those who just don't have what it takes.   Being an officer (from my point of view) is very difficult, and it takes a lot of guts to work past the typical officer stereotype, and unfortunately, with NCMs, once that image is in their brain, it's difficult to prove otherwise, but ignore that, I'm sure with what you have said about wanting to use weapons (as an NCM I enjoy when an officer can handle a weapon and I do not have to fear for my life, which will lead to another story at another time perhaps), you will make a fine officer and a fine leader.   As for being able to handle weapons, I'm sure it's different in regs than from res, but, I know for a fact that the officers in my unit in particular, for the most part, have not seen their rifle in well over a year, but that all comes down to timings of exercises, and budget.   Scary thought, however that's life it seems, however I can't remember the last time I've seen any of our support trp members with one either, NCM or officer.

Like everyone else has stated, ignore the stereotypes, they've existed since the dawn of time, and any NCM you come across will automatically have that image, but if you do what you know is right for the troops and the objective at hand, then you will earn their trust, and you will have no problems.

oh, and by the sounds of it you should be going Sig NCM, it sounds like you really like the idea of being in the field....if you like the field, you'll LOVE your phase III training!

 

[Radop]

RE: Reply from Kingston Jimmy

To: Kingston Jimmy

Can you please stop talking about officers in the CF being paper pushers ? All officers in CF have basic and combat training (handling weapon is part of the training requirements). Officers are the leaders in the CF. They do tactical planning as well as administration planning. They don't behave as Kingston Jimmy described in his reply here.

Thanks,

Wong Man Fei

Well, I know your vast experiences with leadership must have told you that they begin with paper work!   I have seen very little field leadership from Sig Os.   I have some very good friends that are officers and I am sure they would agree.   They would like to get out from behind their desks once in a while but it only happens when they have to brief the OC or something.   Kingston Jimmy having served as COs driver and working in ops gets to see what most of the officers do!!!!!

This is why most of the men wear 2 tour medals or more and officers have only CDs!!!

 

[Sher H]

From reading this thread, (just spitballing here) it appears you are interested in medals. Or is it weapons? From experience, I can assure you that medlas and weapons don't mix well with Sigs. If you are looking for medals, then go infantry, if you want weapons to play with go infantry, if you want a CAREER in communications, go for NCM (they learn more, tour more). After 22 years in the service (as a former 291 NCO) then a reservist, I would choose officer training. I stayed reg force for two tours (UNFICYP and UNEFME) plus 4CMBG in Lahr plus Alert. I have five medals, as an officer, I would have probably ended up with two, max (if I'm lucky).

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

"From reading this thread, (just spitballing here) it appears you are interested in medals. Or is it weapons? From experience, I can assure you that medlas and weapons don't mix well with Sigs. If you are looking for medals, then go infantry"

WTF are you talking about?  Signals units and personnel deploy far more regularly than the infantry does.

 

[Inf Sig]

Read everything posted, and let's just say,  if you want a degree - go officer. If not - NCM. That would be your first step.  If you want a degree in lets say - computer engineering - you still have to get through 4 yrs of university. If you want to experience things in an field unit - Land is the best way to go - the Air side will most likely never come to a field unit. That's not to say Land will never go to a static posting.  Before you start thinking about "rucking, BFT, and EX", think about the overall picture first.  Whose to say you will not want to be a "computer geek" in 2-3 yrs - maybe law is more your speed!

If you are with a field unit as the Sig O, you will spend the majority of your time in the office. And lets not forget all the "hob-nobbing" you still have to do after hours. When your troops go to the field, you will be going with them, doing the job of not only a Sig O, but you may also be one of the Duty O working in the CP.  As for tours, you will have to DAG with your troops, learning the same things they learn - so yes - you go in the training area and "shoot the BB gun" as well as other qualifications.  Your job will be ever changing, as well as ever-evolving. Those in the Comms world should know.  Air side - most likely working in a static job really pushing paper, qualifying on the C-7 only once a year, never doing a BFT, ruck - what is that?, and paper - loads and loads, as well as a hand in every pot.

NCO - Field unit - do everything - from jungle lanes to shiftwork in a CP to rappelling out of a helicopter. Deploying with the troops you have worked with for months, from infantry to engineers to a country that is most likely alot warmer than Canada at this time.  Static - sitting at a desk, Outlook always open and never emptying, pushing mounds and mounds of paper, and most likely never going out of country on tour with the PPCLI, LDSH, or any field unit.

Take your pick - it is up to you to choose your life. No reason you can't change it in a couple of years also

 

[Radop]

From reading this thread, (just spitballing here) it appears you are interested in medals. Or is it weapons? From experience, I can assure you that medlas and weapons don't mix well with Sigs. If you are looking for medals, then go infantry, if you want weapons to play with go infantry, if you want a CAREER in communications, go for NCM (they learn more, tour more). After 22 years in the service (as a former 291 NCO) then a reservist, I would choose officer training. I stayed reg force for two tours (UNFICYP and UNEFME) plus 4CMBG in Lahr plus Alert. I have five medals, as an officer, I would have probably ended up with two, max (if I'm lucky).

I currently have 5 medals with sigs unit (11 yrs) and had none as an infanteer (6 yrs).  The highest tasked trade for overseas is still sig ops.  Every 6 mos we send a minimum of 50 Sig Ops and LSIS techs out the door for a trade that has 1200 and 300 pers respectively.  That is not including any new tours that may come up.  If you read other threads in other forums, you will see that pers are talking about sitting in bdes and not going on tour while reservist go instead.  Most of these are infanteers.  I have a lot of friends with more than 8 medals.

The last tour was roto 0 in Afghanistan and the sigs in warehouse never had a ND and as far as I know the only ones that did were infanteers.  We train very seriously with wpns as we are often sent out alone to man RRBs and have to provide our oun security.  We also provide comunication for convoy escorts or CPs for field ops. 

If you want to learn a lot of aspects of communications, go NCM.  If you want a good education, be well paid, and work a desk then go Signals O.  The biggest posting for officers in the signals branch is Ottawa!!!!

 

[Sher H]

"From reading this thread, (just spitballing here) it appears you are interested in medals. Or is it weapons? From experience, I can assure you that medlas and weapons don't mix well with Sigs. If you are looking for medals, then go infantry"

WTF are you talking about?   Signals units and personnel deploy far more regularly than the infantry does.

I'm not usually a disputatious person, however you may have misread my previous post. I agree with your point regarding percentage of deployment, I made reference to weaponry and medals, not to frequency of deployment. Wasn't quite sure if this candidate wanted medals, trips, experience, training, etc. Retraction of previous comments.

 

[Radop]

I'm not usually a disputatious person, however you may have misread my previous post. I agree with your point regarding percentage of deployment, I made reference to weaponry and medals, not to frequency of deployment. Wasn't quite sure if this candidate wanted medals, trips, experience, training, etc. Retraction of previous comments.

lol  ;D

then I retract the WTF comment that I never said but alluded to, ahh, you know what I mean.  lol  :dontpanic:

 

[Darth_Hamel]

I recently transfered from sig op to sig's field officer in the Com Res. I haven't spent much time in either role, but none the less:

Being an officer is totally different from being an NCM. If you like getting dirty and working with your hands then I suggest NEVER going officer. You are trained on how to use radio equipment, but only to understand its capabilities and to use in the event of an emergency. As an officer you deal with paperwork, and conceptual things like exercise planning.

As to going into the field, officers do get field time, but how much depends on the situation. As an NCM almost everything that you do is regulated down to the minute. As an officer you are given goals varying from say a week to several years by your unit CO, and then left to figure out how to accomplish them on your own time. What this means is that to get into the field as an officer you have to make time for it, which can be difficult but is never impossible.

A good troop commander should be in the field every time their troops are. Whether this happens depends upon how gung ho or lazy the officer is, and how much administrative support there is at the unit. If there is a decent compliment of officers and clerks at your unit, then the troop comanders will have a lot of time to get into the field, check up on the troops in training ect. If your lacking in support, then the officer winds up picking up the slack and being chained to their desk. But as an officer your role in the field is totally differnt from the troops. You recce locations before a move, write and issue the orders, organise the vehicle packet, plan the placement of each asset in the new location, act as a liason b/w your coms assets and the officers using the CP, and then inspect everything once the setup is complete.

Once you leave a troop, pretty much kiss the field goodbye for good. But a lot of officers become Captains for life and stay in troop lines for their entire career.

Finally most people who become officers off the street do it because of what they see in the movies. Reality is a lot more boring and difficult. As a pte whatever happens, your only responsible for yourself, as an officer you take complete responsability for whatever happens to your troops, even for things that are out of your control. For instance if someone under your command is killed overseas or in training, the officer is the one that has to inform their NOK and then write a letter home explaing to their parents how the mistakes they made got their son/daughter killed. If you don't believe that you can do that then don't become an officer, especially because NCM's usually wind up having more fun anyways.

 

[PteCamp]

Hamel:

If your the same person I think you are, I did SQ with ya.
Congrats on becoming an officer man, good luck in the future.

 

[Sig_Des]

Kec,

he's who you think he is...He roomed with me on our 3's...

Good riddance to the dark Side >

Hey, Hamel, you still have that baby-pink course T-shirt? You'll need that for your occifer PT.....jogging around the parade square in Kingston...

all J/k aside, good on ya....don't be a jerk, and since you were an NCM, you can make your own damned coffee!