Confederate Flag Displaying

[Stubble Jumper]

Hey all,

Is it illegal in the CF to display the confederate flag?

I think it is, but does anybody know for sure?

Thanks

 

[East Side Soprano]

I don‘t think so, nobody really expects a Canadian to fly a confederate flag...can‘t really see that happening.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Yes it is. It cannot be publicly displayed in POMVs(on Base), PMQs, shacks or the workplace. I‘ll try to get the link to it when I get back to work next week.

Pet had to go through this in the mid 90‘s. In Winnipeg the same thing happened and people were not happy but took them down.

The same goes for any other flag that can bring discredit to CF. Swastika, White Supremist or such others deemed by some clown tucked away in an office.

 

[Redeye]

East Side Soprano, since I‘m almost willing to bet that you don‘t even know what the significance of the Confederate Battle Flag is to the CF and why its display is presently banned, I‘d suggest this to be one of the many topics you should keep your perceived authority restrained on.

Just a tip. Ask questions, learn, etc, but don‘t speak of things which you don‘t know about except to do the first two things.

 

[Brock]

East Side Soprano:

The Confederate flag was the Flag of the "South" in the US Civil War (1860-1865), which was fought more or less over the southern US states breakaway over the slavery issue. Thus the Confederate flag--although cool looking--is a symbole of racism. It is the same with Nazi Swastika. Kind of a cool looking flag, but flying it is a symbol of racism no matter what one argues about it "cool factor". I have personnally seen Confederate flags hung up in the "shacks" at CFB Gagetown. I am not impressed. I don‘t care what one argues, people in the Canadian military should face serious discipline for racist items. I highly doubt anyone would argue that it is okay to display a massive Nazi swastika flag in one‘s room. Apparently, the military needs troops so bad we can overlook such unacceptable behaviour.

 

[Redeye]

Brock:

I‘m not going to start a pissing match over the flag - it incidentally, was the Confederate States of America‘s battle flag, not their national flag - but you should be aware that it is not explicitly a symbol of racism, nor was the Civil War only over slavery (to take from your post (a great deal less than more). In fact, it‘s not really a racist symbol except in the tremendously PC world. It is displayed with pride by many of my "in-laws" who are Southerners and not in the least bit racists as a nostalgic symbol. Comparing it to a Nazi flag is a bit ridiculous.

It is a symbol of defiance and rebellion, and it is controversial in the CF because it is frequently associated with the Canadian Airborne Regiment, and in particular with the very few "bad apples" who spoiled the CAR. My understanding, as explained to be by a former CAR Sgt, is that it was popular among all ranks as a symbol of the fact that the Airborne Regiment was a bit different, a unit with perceived elitism. "Defiance" and "rebellion" are not exactly military virtues, but one Soviet commentator (I wish I could find the exact quote) once remarked that the Soviets feared the Canadians (in particular the CAR) for their unpredictable nature and unwillingness to read, let alone follow doctrine.

For this reason, some ex-CAR men do (subtlely) display the Battle Flag to this day. While I don‘t disagree that its display to the public on bases is probably not a good idea and existing rules should be enforced, I don‘t see what the big deal about it is.

 

[dbrock]

good day to every1,

The Civil war was not just about the slave issue but about states rights. The states broke away for political reasons as well i.e the cotton taxes that was levied on the southern states rivaled that of the tea tax that started the american revolution. Some states still have the stars and bars as part of their state flag. There is no reason why a member of the Canadian Forces should have a confederate flag in his or her barracks or any other flag that is not authorised. Remember they are living on Canadian Government property and are subect to the Queen‘s regulations and orders. Racism has no place in the Canadian Forces. I think these small minded individuals are a bunch of wannabe‘s that have no concept of the real world and what their jobs really are. Perhaps they should turn in their uniforms for a white pointed hat and gown.

 

[xFusilier]

I‘m not going to start a pissing match over the flag

Neither am I, but any one who does not believe that the abolition of slavery was not the single largest reason for the American Civil War need‘s their head checked out. People find the Confederate Battle flag offensive because it points to another great piece of "Southern Heritage" the believe that one human being is authorized by god, nontheless to own another human being. It has IMHO no place in the Canadian military and never did.

 

[Redeye]

XFusilier, you‘re correct that it doesn‘t really have a place in the CF at all and shouldn‘t be displayed (as someone above mentioned) on Govt Property.

I will, however, dispute the slavery allegation. That was a corollary issue to the matter of state‘s rights and economic disparities. I‘m not sure what education you‘ve had on the Civil War, but since my other half is a Southerner and I‘ve spent an appreciable amount of time in the South, I can tell you that‘s not really the case. Of course, the use of slave labour would come under state rights, but the real issue was the structure of national governments (a loose confederation vice a strong federation). They felt a strong Northern government was simply using the South as a source of commodities to get rich off of, and the CSA was spawned on the belief that they could do a better job.

In the end, it doesn‘t matter much for our purposes. The flag has negative (if erroneous) connotations to some, and is somewhat justly not permitted in CF facilities.

 

[Stubble Jumper]

Hey,

Didnt mean to start a flame war here

From a historical/political point of view slavery wasnt the leading cause of the Civil War. Although Modern Pop History would lead you to believe that. The north owned slaves too. However freeing the slaves was mostly political/propanaga move to demonize the south and rally the blacks to help solve the manpower shortage at the front line.

Politics are never clear cut or good vs evil, even now. There are always underlying factors that make politicians move on issues when it is in their best interest or forced. The key to seeing the world for what it is is to see these underlying factors.

A good example is ww2 and the USA‘s Myth "Crusade against Nazism". If the US was truely concerned about the spread of the 3rd Reich, then why did they only join the war in Dec 41 after Japan attacked them? Or alot of countries denying entry of people fleeing Germany?

The world is full of examples like these throughout history.

Thanks for the reply on the Flag Query. One of my new young neighbours was using it as a curtain in the Q‘s. Didnt want to see a young guy get hung for not knowing.

 

[Redeye]

You didn‘t start a flame war, don‘t worry!

 

[nbk]

I believe the confederate flag should be noted as something that could be considered offensive no matter what the intentions behind hanging it were.

If a Buddhist found a NAZI political flag at a surplus store and hung it up, he would probably get disciplined to death, even though the swastika is a popular symbol throughout Asia which represents luck and soforth.

Its hard (and annoying) to be PC all the time, but in something which has a perticular public image such as the Canadian Army, why even bother with the controversy? Its not going to offend people if it is not run up the flag poll, so why bother even creating a possible issue?

 

[Recce41]

Ok
You cannot fly any flag from windows in the shacks or walls. It is not illgal to have the flag on your car or on base. It just went a lil weird in 95 with the CAR.
2 Cdo did have the flag, it was given to them yrs ago by the US Army. But of course Canadians panic. OOOO its a Rebel flag,OOOO your a racist, OOOO your a skin head. It was just like you couldn‘t shave your head.
Now look, most people do.
I had one on my Truck the MPs stopped me, I told them Its on my truck and I am leaving it. Nothing came about it.
The flag is still the state flag for some southern states.

 

[East Side Soprano]

Redeye: I know the significance of the Confederate flag and some of the history behind it. I don‘t claim to know everything about it. I didn‘t believe it was illegal because I have never seen a Confederate flown and I don‘t know why anybody in Canada would associate themselves with that flag (not many southern Americans here in Canada), not because I didn‘t know the significance of the flag. I just voiced what I thought was true, not what I claimed was true, notice the way I made my post, I didn‘t sound like I was the absolute authority on the subject, did I? But i made the post because I wanted people to know what I think, if you can‘t live with that...meh. You came on too strong there, don‘t let your emotions take over, but thanks for coming out...

Just a tip. Loosen up a little bit, don‘t get your panties in a knot just because you disagree with me, I‘m sure you could have made your post a little bit more polite.

 

[Redeye]

To quote nbk:

"If a Buddhist found a NAZI political flag at a surplus store and hung it up, he would probably get disciplined to death, even though the swastika is a popular symbol throughout Asia which represents luck and soforth."

Rightly so - no Asian would confuse a Nazi flag‘s modified swastika with the popular Asian symbol - the symbol as you see it on Buddhist, Sikh, Hindu, and other temples is the swastika reverse from the way the Nazis used it, and not at an angle. That‘s a pretty clear cut case.

Recce41 - I forgot about the fact that it was 2Cdo that originally received the gift of the flag. You‘re right about the battle flag being part of several state flags, though that number is dwindling rapidly. The former governor of Georgia, Roy Barnes, lost an election primarily over his unilateral decision to change the Georgia state flag so as to remove the Battle Flag from it.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You know when you think of it...any flag or symbol can cause offence. Look at the Scottish Tartans it was banned I believe after that Battle of Culluden. It was deemed offensive by the Brits and made illegal, after all they did win the war.I wonder had the Confederacy won the Civil War would the Stars and Stripes be viewed in a similiar light.

 

[East Side Soprano]

Great post Ex-Dragoon, I never looked at the issue from that angle myself.

 

[onecat]

Its the flag of White Supremacist. Sure there maybe some pride in being from the south. But connection with the white pride racisms, cannot be over looked. And there for should not be used on any CF bases. Anyone who is flying this flag, is also flying a "whites only" flag no matter much they try to say its not so. And this has nothing to do with being PC, history has made this flag, a flag of racism, the KKK and of White Supremacists. If it was truly a flag of southern pride you would see it used by the black population in the US... and that just isn‘t happening.

 

[ArmyAl]

I have a Jolly Rogers or pirate flag flying on my truck in the field, am I a pirate then?
Arrr, shiver me timbers!

or

maybe I‘m a SS wannabe because it‘s the death head!
Hmmm, how do the words to Horst Wessel Lied go again?

or

I‘m a Stone Cold Steve Austin fan
3:16 baby

Recce41, you have the freedom to have that flag, could have sworn I saw you with the rainbow flag HAHA

S_Baker, I love it when you shut down the dumb***es with anti american remarks, if they only knew

My 2 cents :skull:

 

[Roger]

The CAR was disbanded because of political reasons, the Forces had to cut 25% and they where expensive to keep and at the time the press was after them.

You cannot blame the actions of a few to the many; imagine disbanding governments or Police departments.

A few people conceive the confederate flag as racist and some racists groups have used the flag as a symbol, the members of the CAR did not have it for that reason but at the time they where under the presses watchful eye and they received bad press from it.

I think the Forces just learned a lesson and now try’s to protect itself from bad press, imagine having your picture used in a paper saying you’re a racist because you had a flag that you thought was cool, it could happen.