Conflict of Interest

[George Wallace]

Once again, this being a form of communication that does not accurately reflect the exact nuances of our typed expressions we seem to have derailed over a minor topic, which we are all probably in agreement on, but due to the nature of the internet, seem to have opposing views, even if they are small technicalities branching from the main theme we are in agreement on.......Does that make sense?

Do we have anything more to add on "CONFLICT OF INTEREST"?

 

[shaun_bougie]

Bradboy,

I've left the MPs to go to the OPP.  I'll have to caution you on this.  If you think you're going to go to the Military Police, get 6 months of course, do a few years with the MPs and come directly to the OPP, you have something else coming to you.

There are only a handful of agencies that accept direct lateral transfers between the Military Police and their agency.  RCMP, Calgary and Halifax are the only ones that come right to mind.  There is NOT ONE Police Service in Ontario that will take the Military Police as lateral transfers.  The reason being is the same as the reasoning in Quebec.  Ontario and Quebec have Provincially run Police Colleges.  They also charge fees to attend these colleges (I think Ontario just went up to $10K).  They will limit any police agency's members from attending a police service in Ontario as a lateral transfer because they want their share of the money.  It is the way it is.  I had to go to Ontario Police College as did about 9 other ex-MPs that were in my intake.  It will continue to be this way for a long time to come.  Hell the OPP's just deciding to allow Military Police service as "Continuous Full Time Police Service" for vacation and Provincial Retention Incentive credit this year.  I had to start out at the bottom as a Recruit-Constable and I'm slowly moving up.  Needless to say is that I'm very thankful that the 39 months I put in with the MPs will be credited toward getting to 8 years for an extra week's vacation and PRI.  None of the other services in Ontario offer this to ex-MPs.

As for being posted to Petawawa.  It's rare but if your spouse is there and just getting there, then chances are you'll be allowed to go back.  The CF isn't in the business of ruining marriages...... anymore

 

[Bradboy]

  Just to sort Mr. Wallace out. My wife and I have spoken many times about this. She does not plan on staying in the military past her 5 year contract. I have 2 years left on my current contract and I am hoping I will only have to sign another 3 years if I remuster. That will put both of our contracts up around the same time, give or take a month. Not everyone that joins the army plans on doing it for a career. So for me, signing the "dreaded 19 year contract" is not something I want to do. And breaking contract is something I'd like to avoid. Apologies to those of you "hardcore" lifer types.

 

Bradboy,

I've left the MPs to go to the OPP.  I'll have to caution you on this.  If you think you're going to go to the Military Police, get 6 months of course, do a few years with the MPs and come directly to the OPP, you have something else coming to you.

There are only a handful of agencies that accept direct lateral transfers between the Military Police and their agency.  RCMP, Calgary and Halifax are the only ones that come right to mind.  There is NOT ONE Police Service in Ontario that will take the Military Police as lateral transfers.  The reason being is the same as the reasoning in Quebec.  Ontario and Quebec have Provincially run Police Colleges.  They also charge fees to attend these colleges (I think Ontario just went up to $10K).  They will limit any police agency's members from attending a police service in Ontario as a lateral transfer because they want their share of the money.  It is the way it is.  I had to go to Ontario Police College as did about 9 other ex-MPs that were in my intake.  It will continue to be this way for a long time to come.  Hell the OPP's just deciding to allow Military Police service as "Continuous Full Time Police Service" for vacation and Provincial Retention Incentive credit this year.  I had to start out at the bottom as a Recruit-Constable and I'm slowly moving up.  Needless to say is that I'm very thankful that the 39 months I put in with the MPs will be credited toward getting to 8 years for an extra week's vacation and PRI.  None of the other services in Ontario offer this to ex-MPs.

Thanks for this info. I expected that I would have to go to OPC. I never doubted that. I'm just looking into becoming an MP for the schooling and added experience to my background. If my wife is going to be posted to Petawawa for 5 years I want to use that time to build my resume and I think remustering to MP is the best way to do it. My other option was once my current contract is up to take a civilian college police foundations course. I figure going the MP way would be the better option. But if I'm unable to get posted back to Petawawa with my wife than it's out of the question. I'll be talking to my BPSO soon I hope so I'll post on here what the outcome is. Hopefully it will be good news.

 

[Nauticus]

As for the "dreadful 19 year contract" comment; I found that to be insulting and a thoughtless stupid comment for the OP to have made.  It defined him as being someone who really doesn't have commitment to the CF.  At the same time, it looks like he may have a lot of thinking to do as to his career aspirations, his spouse's career aspirations, and whether or not they have much in common.

I personally don't think his comments were offensive or stupid. There's a huge sum of people who join the Forces because they want to serve their country, not necessarily because they have long-term career aspirations in the military. This doesn't make them any less of a soldier, either - they come in and do the same as anybody else who joined, just for a lesser amount of time. I don't believe it's necessarily detrimental if somebody doesn't want to be a "career soldier".

I don't really see what the issue with him wanting to work where his wife does. He's stated that his career goals are with a civilian law enforcement agency, so there's really nothing stopping him from applying to a municipal police force at, or near, where ever his wife happens to be posted to. But you are right, he has a lot of thinking to do. I agree that, perhaps, military police may not be his best option.

 

[FastEddy]

I personally don't think his comments were offensive or stupid. There's a huge sum of people who join the Forces because they want to serve their country, not necessarily because they have long-term career aspirations in the military. This doesn't make them any less of a soldier, either - they come in and do the same as anybody else who joined, just for a lesser amount of time. I don't believe it's necessarily detrimental if somebody doesn't want to be a "career soldier".

I don't really see what the issue with him wanting to work where his wife does. He's stated that his career goals are with a civilian law enforcement agency, so there's really nothing stopping him from applying to a municipal police force at, or near, where ever his wife happens to be posted to. But you are right, he has a lot of thinking to do. I agree that, perhaps, military police may not be his best option.

First of all, I don't think that anybody thought him Stupid or offensive.

Secondly,  Theres nothing wrong with somebody discovering down the line that the Military is not for them, or not what they expected. But to join as a stepping stone and exploit the Military for what you can glean out of it. It certainly not joining for all the Right Reasons.

Thirdly, As far as Serving your Country, since when is there a time cap on this, because or what you can get out of it in the shortest amount of your time or commitment.

Fourth, you are filling a vacancy that some Military Career Minded person (especially the MP Branch) will be denied.

Fifth, maybe the only thing stupid was admitting his intent and asking us to help or how to screw the Army. Or your Championing his Cause.
 

 

[George Wallace]

I personally don't think his comments were offensive or stupid.

Sorry, but it only indicated to me that he really has no clue as to what his periods of engagement really are, nor the regulations governing them.  It was a totally uninformed statement.  I found it offensive and do think it was stupid of him to make.  If you condone stupidity, fine.

As he has fairly well cleared up what his position is as to his aspirations, this should bring to an end this topic.  He is making some career and family oriented choices to move on after the CF which is a wize thing to do.  I would like to advise him and his spouse to both attend SCAN seminars in their final four or five years of service so that they will be well informed as to what benefits and oportunities the CF will offer them on leaving the CF (when the time comes).

 

[Nauticus]

I appreciate your comments George Wallace. I enjoy reading your posts, because they bring a "been there, done that" aura that is always informative and wise. I also agree it should be an end to the topic, however...

First of all, I don't think that anybody thought him Stupid or offensive.

Secondly,   Theres nothing wrong with somebody discovering down the line that the Military is not for them, or not what they expected. But to join as a stepping stone and exploit the Military for what you can glean out of it. It certainly not joining for all the Right Reasons.

Thirdly, As far as Serving your Country, since when is there a time cap on this, because or what you can get out of it in the shortest amount of your time or commitment.

Fourth, you are filling a vacancy that some Military Career Minded person (especially the MP Branch) will be denied.

Fifth, maybe the only thing stupid was admitting his intent and asking us to help or how to screw the Army. Or your Championing his Cause.

I do not appreciate your suggestion that my comments were stupid (as highlighted by the bold). I will not even directly comment on that, except that it is disrespectful and may showcase the type of poster that you are.

The point I would like to ask, and make, is this: What are the "right reasons" to join the military? And who are you to tell somebody else that their reasons for joining are not?

Why did I join? Because I wanted to serve my country, and I saw the armed forces as something I was able to thrive in. I personally know somebody who felt the need to serve his country, although he has no intention to stay longer than his initial contract. Three years is a lot of time, and in some's opinion, it may be an ample investment to serve one's country. Does this make him a "less-good" soldier than someone who intends to spend a lot of time, like myself or perhaps you? Of course not. Suggesting otherwise is merely creating a caste system where there should be equals. Pointing out differences where there shouldn't be.

This is obviously my opinion, but I have the right to disagree with you respectfully, even though you did not do the same thing to me. Ranks and medals are there to reflect "time in", and I don't believe we should be judging the quality of those who serve based merely on intended time in.

Thanks for your time!

 

[George Wallace]

Is that directed at me, or FastEddy?


I'll give one opinion, and a generalization, that I hate spending all my time and effort, not to mention the governments monies to train someone who has joined, not for a career, but to 'Social Climb' and is basically here under false pretenses, who quites after getting all that training.  Someone who says "Oh yeah I will make the commitment." and then once they have the course, it is "See ya!"  I have a Cpl who just did that on completing the CP Crse.  He should deploy this month, but no, "I can get a better job here at home, and maybe join the Police."  To me that is a betrayal, not necessarily to me, but to to any others that may truly want the Crse, but will stand a poor chance of doing so, because this one guy bailed as soon as he completed it.  He may have slammed that door in their faces.  To me his ethics and morals are now in question.  What else will he desert in the future?  Will he leave me in a time of dire need?

Anyone remember when  we first got the Griffons?  How we sent all those mechanics down to Texas to get qualified, only to see them put in their Releases on return to Canada, so that they could go work in the civilian sector.  I'd call that betrayal.  If you were a Civilian employer, what would you have done if your guys jumped ship as soon as they got the qualification?

Someone who honestly has done his time, and is up front with why he wants to VOT is usually more accepted.  TI, however, isn't a couple of months or years.  It is at the very least the completion of the first two engagements (dependant on Trade). 


As the CF ages out, perhaps it is time to penalize those leaving early, instead of rewarding them.  If you don't have X years of Service, you pay out of pocket the costs of the Crses you have received.  If we don't do that, when the older, more experienced, members reach CRA, there will won't be any younger people with experience to carry on.  If you look at some Trades now, like RMS, you can already see that; inexperienced Snr NCOs promoted before they are knowledgeable and experienced enough to be promoted.  Pushing inexperienced people up to fill vacancies opened by members meeting CRA. 

 

[SupersonicMax]

George, if this is such a big problem to the CF, why don't they implement mandatory service after completing a trade's course, like pilots and Navigators (or whatever they're called now) are subjected to? 

To have a healthy company, you cannot keep everyone for 20-25-30 years.  Attrition must happen. 

 

[riggermade]

Is that directed at me, or FastEddy?


I'll give one opinion, and a generalization, that I hate spending all my time and effort, not to mention the governments monies to train someone who has joined, not for a career, but to 'Social Climb' and is basically here under false pretenses, who quites after getting all that training.  Someone who says "Oh yeah I will make the commitment." and then once they have the course, it is "See ya!"  I have a Cpl who just did that on completing the CP Crse.  He should deploy this month, but no, "I can get a better job here at home, and maybe join the Police."  To me that is a betrayal, not necessarily to me, but to to any others that may truly want the Crse, but will stand a poor chance of doing so, because this one guy bailed as soon as he completed it.  He may have slammed that door in their faces.  To me his ethics and morals are now in question.  What else will he desert in the future?  Will he leave me in a time of dire need?

Anyone remember when  we first got the Griffons?  How we sent all those mechanics down to Texas to get qualified, only to see them put in their Releases on return to Canada, so that they could go work in the civilian sector.  I'd call that betrayal.  If you were a Civilian employer, what would you have done if your guys jumped ship as soon as they got the qualification?

Someone who honestly has done his time, and is up front with why he wants to VOT is usually more accepted.  TI, however, isn't a couple of months or years.  It is at the very least the completion of the first two engagements (dependant on Trade). 


As the CF ages out, perhaps it is time to penalize those leaving early, instead of rewarding them.   If you don't have X years of Service, you pay out of pocket the costs of the Crses you have received.  If we don't do that, when the older, more experienced, members reach CRA, there will won't be any younger people with experience to carry on.  If you look at some Trades now, like RMS, you can already see that; inexperienced Snr NCOs promoted before they are knowledgeable and experienced enough to be promoted.  Pushing inexperienced people up to fill vacancies opened by members meeting CRA. 

I try to try and keep my opinions to myself but i think George is way beyond his boundries here.  People use jobs as a way to advance themselves all the time and the military is no different. I did 24+ plus years and if a job had of come up paying better money I would have been out in a heartbeat.
On this site I believe you are in a position where you should be impartial, if you can't do that then step down

 

[George Wallace]

George, if this is such a big problem to the CF, why don't they implement mandatory service after completing a trade's course, like pilots and Navigators (or whatever they're called now) are subjected to? 

To have a healthy company, you cannot keep everyone for 20-25-30 years.  Attrition must happen. 

I'd say that mandatory service would be a good step to take for all ranks.  

Attrition must happen, but if it is happening to those in the first to fifth year timelines, then the experience and knowledge is being lost.  It forces some more dedicated, who hold that knowledge and experience, to stay longer, which creates quite a delta when it comes to experience, and quite a problem when a large percentage of a Trade reaches CRA.  The whole CF is at that point right now, with large numbers of members recruited in the '70s and '80s leaving.  This is why we have a shortage of Instructors across all Trades; all due to the folly of the Government in the early '90s when they created FRP and at the same time froze Recruiting.  Bringing only one of two Recruit Schools back on line has not provided the personnel at a rate to overcome the problems of attrition from older, experienced NCOs leaving.  A lot of corporate knowledge is being lost.  The CF is now looking at a bunch of "Rookies" being forced into a steep learning curve, and often having to reinvent the wheel in their attempts to keep the CF's head above water.  This can't even be compared to the War Years, because today the "Experienced" and "Knowledgeable" are not staying in the CF in large enough quantities to rebuild and retrain, passing on their knowledge and experience.



This, however, is getting a little off topic.

 

[George Wallace]

I try to try and keep my opinions to myself but i think George is way beyond his boundries here. 
On this site I believe you are in a position where you should be impartial, if you can't do that then step down

So?  I take it you would like to CENSOR me and not permit me the same rights that you so easily enjoy?

People use jobs as a way to advance themselves all the time and the military is no different. I did 24+ plus years and if a job had of come up paying better money I would have been out in a heartbeat.

I have no problems with a guy doing his time and finding a better job elsewhere.  I do have a problem with a guy with a couple of years in, taking the Trades Trg, expecially the specialty courses, and leaving as soon as (s)he finishes the Crse.  I think SupersonicMax has hit on a solution: whereby people are required to serve a fixed period after getting specialty crses, just like the various officer occupations.  This would solve some of our current problems.

 

[Nauticus]

Very interesting discussion. I apologize for any controversy that my comments might have caused, and I also apologize for apparently hijacking the thread!

I think an easy solution to this problem would be to extend an initial contract to 5, or maybe 6 or 7, years. It seems long, but it would allow a person to serve his entire time following training, and it would also keep those who may abuse the system from applying. I suppose the flaw would probably cut back further on those who enlist, making our military smaller. I, personally, would be all for signing a 5, 6 or 7 year engagement contract.

 

[George Wallace]

I think an easy solution to this problem would be to extend an initial contract to 5, or maybe 6 or 7, years. It seems long, but it would allow a person to serve his entire time following training, and it would also keep those who may abuse the system from applying. I suppose the flaw would probably cut back further on those who enlist, making our military smaller. I, personally, would be all for signing a 5, 6 or 7 year engagement contract.

I'm not really advocating extending the initial contract across the board, but for some of the Trades that require more specialize Training, or any Trade that places personnel on a Specialty Course.  The compulsory service wouldn't be based on Trades, but on Courses.  If an Infanteer wanted to do a HUMINT or Interrogator Crse, then they would be required to serve X years after, to gain experience and pass on their experience and knowledge to future candidates; as opposed to gaining the course and leaving immediately for a civilian job as a contractor.  Or the RMS clerk who gets some specialized software courses, and pulls pin, now being required to serve X number of years to implent and train others on that system.  This would be Course based, not Trade based, so you may find an Infanteer serving two engagements and getting out after six years and no specialty courses, while his buddy with a specialty, will have to serve X number of extra years.

I don't think it will cut the flow of Recruits, but it will give those dedicated to a career in the CF better opportunities to get specialty courses, and gain the experience and knowledge to keep the CF viable.  It may slow the knowledge and experience draining out of the CF with the large numbers meeting CRA.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Holy crap George!

Maybe just force people to sign into jail if they want the "good" courses........then we can ensure they stay put.

 

[George Wallace]

Why train people, giving them skills in high demand, and not be able to use them to perpetuate a Trade?  It is retarded to train people for occupations, if they have no intention to put some dedication into that occupation.  Where would the next TF be, if everyone on the Work Up Trg decided to put in their Release before Deploying, taking on Private Contractor jobs in some other nation instead?  (A poor example, and greatly exaggerated, but that is where the CF is.)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

  but that is where the CF is.

Yup, don't you hate when free will and personal choice interferes with a VOLUNTEER military?

 

[chris_log]

Is that directed at me, or FastEddy?


I'll give one opinion, and a generalization, that I hate spending all my time and effort, not to mention the governments monies to train someone who has joined, not for a career, but to 'Social Climb' and is basically here under false pretenses, who quites after getting all that training.  Someone who says "Oh yeah I will make the commitment." and then once they have the course, it is "See ya!"  I have a Cpl who just did that on completing the CP Crse.  He should deploy this month, but no, "I can get a better job here at home, and maybe join the Police."  To me that is a betrayal, not necessarily to me, but to to any others that may truly want the Crse, but will stand a poor chance of doing so, because this one guy bailed as soon as he completed it.  He may have slammed that door in their faces.  To me his ethics and morals are now in question.  What else will he desert in the future?  Will he leave me in a time of dire need?

Anyone remember when  we first got the Griffons?  How we sent all those mechanics down to Texas to get qualified, only to see them put in their Releases on return to Canada, so that they could go work in the civilian sector.  I'd call that betrayal.  If you were a Civilian employer, what would you have done if your guys jumped ship as soon as they got the qualification?

Someone who honestly has done his time, and is up front with why he wants to VOT is usually more accepted.  TI, however, isn't a couple of months or years.  It is at the very least the completion of the first two engagements (dependant on Trade). 


As the CF ages out, perhaps it is time to penalize those leaving early, instead of rewarding them.   If you don't have X years of Service, you pay out of pocket the costs of the Crses you have received.  If we don't do that, when the older, more experienced, members reach CRA, there will won't be any younger people with experience to carry on.  If you look at some Trades now, like RMS, you can already see that; inexperienced Snr NCOs promoted before they are knowledgeable and experienced enough to be promoted.  Pushing inexperienced people up to fill vacancies opened by members meeting CRA. 

It's the nature of the beast. There are people who join the CF under honest pretences, people who join only to pull pole for a better paying civvie job once they are fully trained and people who join because it's just another job but with better benefits and far harder to get fired from.

I know people (in ROTP) who are quite open about how they joined the CF for the degree and the networking and who will leave for airline jobs, UN jobs, government jobs...whatever once their time is up (there's a guy I know at an unnamed school who leans farther to the left then Jack Layton...and is an Inf officer....who wants to work for the UN....yeah, he's here for the degree and only the degree, he's also a twit but thats besides the point). Thats just how it works, we get techs who jump ship after they get their advanced courses and JTF2 folks who jump ship for better paying police and civvie contractor jobs.

Heck, I've always been interested in law enforcement and I'm weighing the options of becoming a cop 6 years down the road when my contract is up. I might, I might not. 

 

[George Wallace]

Yup, don't you hate when free will and personal choice interferes with a VOLUNTEER military?

Actually, I hate to see the CF as a form of EI, or a Free Ride for someone wanting a free education or Trades training.

Guess the Oath really is nothing but a piece of paper, without meaning.  This "Sense of Entitlement.  Me First." philosophy only has short term benefits.  The long term loose is starting to hit us now. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Guess the Oath really is nothing but a piece of paper, without meaning. 

Give it up, your sounding real stupid,... what, everyone who didn't finish their life serving is now some kind of low-life?

or a Free Ride for someone wanting a free education or Trades training.

Yup, its unbelievable the shame I feel not wanting to be just the guy who loads the L-5.

Actually, I hate to see the CF as a form of EI,

Hmm, for some reason a set of initials come to mind but I just can't seem to remember them right now.....