Consideration for the Victoria Cross - Afghanistan

[rmc_wannabe]

I fully agree and will add this:

Everyone in the Upper Echelon is to afraid to look "British" and awarding a VC would hamper their chances for reelection:

AND signed.

The previous establishment, yes. I never thought I'd see the Monarch conduct a Speech from the Throne in my lifetime, so who knows? Maybe moving closer to the Commonwealth is a by-product of moving away from the meth lab beneath us?

 

[RangerRay]

Agreed. I would also say its time Carl finds work elsewhere as well....

Sorry, who’s Carl?

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Sorry, who’s Carl?

A tradition of recognition and the gratitude of a nation | The Royal Canadian Mint

www.mint.ca

 

[Edward Campbell]

I find it weird that Australia and New Zealand both awarded VC's during the GWOT, yet not Canada....and I'd argue that Kiwis are as reserved if not more so than us...could be that people don't want to get out of that peacekeeping mode or worse, admit that we were in a war.

Canada has not awarded a VC since the 2nd World War. Every other country that has the VC has awarded them several times. I think that the problem starts and ends within Canada's military bureaucracy - Canadian Forces colonels, commodores, generals and admirals. I believe ( no proof) that there were several VC recommendations made in the Korean War and in subsequent operations, but ... <shrug>

 

[PuckChaser]

A professional honours officer? Why the hell does this person exist as a director for 15 years? Talk about a failed career as a leader.

 

[lenaitch]

I find it weird that Australia and New Zealand both awarded VC's during the GWOT, yet not Canada....and I'd argue that Kiwis are as reserved if not more so than us...could be that people don't want to get out of that peacekeeping mode or worse, admit that we were in a war.

Tall poppy syndrome?

I am convinced that too many people - certainly those in power - are, I don't know, embarrassed (? maybe not the right word) that we have a military that does military things that aren't wearing blue helmets and giving out bottled water. Too polarizing, no 'votes' value, no understanding of the relationship between hard and soft power.

Almost none of our politicians traditionally have a military background so it just another government department to manage.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

A professional honours officer? Why the hell does this person exist as a director for 15 years? Talk about a failed career as a leader.

He would have been the Policy and Operations Advisor when the initial application came through. He also would have been Director in every subsequent review the department took since.

Additionally, every application that makes it up to D H&R, he can act as the Angel of Death on (if it proceeds to The Chancellory of Honours at Rideau Hall or if its downgraded to a lesser award).

If we look at every Meritorious or Bravery decoration awarded for the Afghan War, this one person held a lot of sway in what awards were put forward.

Makes you think if that is the best method to recognize the exploits and achievements of CAF members...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Canada has not awarded a VC since the 2nd World War. Every other country that has the VC has awarded them several times. I think that the problem starts and ends within Canada's military bureaucracy - Canadian Forces colonels, commodores, generals and admirals. I believe ( no proof) that there were several VC recommendations made in the Korean War and in subsequent operations, but ... <shrug>

Tall poppy syndrome enters the chat..


In Australia and New Zealand, "cutting down the tall poppy" is sometimes used by business entrepreneurs to describe those who deliberately criticise other people for their success and achievements. It has been described as being the by-product of the Australian and New Zealand cultural value of egalitarianism.

In New Zealand, academic study concerning the prevalence of tall poppy syndrome and its impact on the economy of New Zealand has become an area of increased focus. Interest in the effects of tall poppy syndrome became reinvigorated in 2021 following the suicide of entrepreneur Jake Millar, who had received negative media coverage surrounding one of his start-up companies. While research is limited, a handful of studies into the economic impact of tall poppy syndrome conducted throughout the 2020s have shown a negative impact on entrepreneurship, risk-taking, and overall economic growth in New Zealand.

Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Maxman1]

A professional honours officer? Why the hell does this person exist as a director for 15 years? Talk about a failed career as a leader.

But I'm sure his PAR has "leading change" on it every year.

 

[RangerRay]

A tradition of recognition and the gratitude of a nation | The Royal Canadian Mint

www.mint.ca

My problem if I had that job, I’d probably be handing medals out like candy…

 

[The Bread Guy]

… Ithink that the problem starts and ends within Canada's military bureaucracy - Canadian Forces colonels, commodores, generals and admirals

Just to play the devil’s advocate, Rick Hillier was CDS during at least some of the process. While he’s helping the push to get Rochelle a VC, has anyone asked him what happened on his watch to prevent that? I ask because I haven’t seen any MSM quotes to that effect.

 

[Jarnhamar]

A tradition of recognition and the gratitude of a nation | The Royal Canadian Mint

www.mint.ca

Doesn't appear shy about getting nominated for medals.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

My problem if I had that job, I’d probably be handing medals out like candy…

I think the mandate of recognizing troops appropriately and in a timely fashion doesn't need to be binary one way or another.

You can have files move up and out from D H&R and let that decision be made by the Fount of Honour themselves, they will act as a final approval authority anyway.

Additionally, having honours rarely or never issued out, in fear of "diluting" their importance or significance, is akin to grandma keeping her fancy plates under lock and key for a "special occasion" that never comes. It almost always turns out that those routine Sunday Dinners were the special occasions that really mattered.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think the mandate of recognizing troops appropriately and in a timely fashion doesn't need to be binary one way or another.

You can have files move up and out from D H&R and let that decision be made by the Fount of Honour themselves, they will act as a final approval authority anyway.

Additionally, having honours rarely or never issued out, in fear of "diluting" their importance or significance, is akin to grandma keeping her fancy plates under lock and key for a "special occasion" that never comes. It almost always turns out that those routine Sunday Dinners were the special occasions that really mattered.

My WW2 vet old man used to say that a Canadian, as opposed to a British, soldier would have to earn it twice to be awarded it once...

'The least they could do': Veterans push Canada to award its first Victoria Cross​

Canada is alone among its major allies in not having awarded its most prestigious battlefield medal to anyone​

During the U.S. Civil War, soldiers reported witnessing a peculiar phenomenon that later became known as "acoustic shadows" — a place where the sound and fury of a battle went to die in a great, unseen void.

Because of the way the din of cannon and rifle fire reflected off the contours of the surrounding countryside — aided by air temperature and the direction of the wind — great battles could rage in front of them in almost complete silence.

That image aptly describes an impassioned, ongoing debate in this country over how to define military valour, and what a Canadian soldier must do to win the country's highest battlefield honour.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/victoria-cross-canadian-forces-1.6645954

 

[medicineman]

My partner was put in for an MB in '94 as part of group that rushed into a minefield to treat and evacuate 3 people seriously injured (one fatally) in a mine strike...he was downgraded and eventually was awarded an MiD 5 or 7 years after the fact. RUMINT at the time was that they were trying to downgrade anything happening in Croatia to make it sound safer...especially with all the shit and abuse people were going through in Bosnia at the same time that was being played out on CNN...

 

[lenaitch]

My partner was put in for an MB in '94 as part of group that rushed into a minefield to treat and evacuate 3 people seriously injured (one fatally) in a mine strike...he was downgraded and eventually was awarded an MiD 5 or 7 years after the fact. RUMINT at the time was that they were trying to downgrade anything happening in Croatia to make it sound safer...especially with all the shit and abuse people were going through in Bosnia at the same time that was being played out on CNN...

I never thought of that aspect but it makes perfect sense. Our involvement in the Balkens was under the guise of 'peacekeeping' and they likely didn't want the public to know there were sending troops into actual harms way. With advancements in communications technology, they probably realized they couldn't keep that genie corked in Afghanistan.

 

[brihard]

Doesn't appear shy about getting nominated for medals.

Just not any of the ones you have to leave Ottawa for…

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I never thought of that aspect but it makes perfect sense. Our involvement in the Balkens was under the guise of 'peacekeeping' and they likely didn't want the public to know there were sending troops into actual harms way. With advancements in communications technology, they probably realized they couldn't keep that genie corked in Afghanistan.

I think they would have tried if we had stayed on in Kabul instead of taking over in Kandahar.

Once things kicked off and the go-pro footage was coming out, hard to call it anything else but combat.

 

[eliminator]

Just not any of the ones you have to leave Ottawa for…

Carl is a great dude who is passionate about H&A and has dedicated most of his career to improving the Canadian Honours System (among other efforts, I believe he was the lead on the design and creation of the SWASM, GCS, GSM, and OSM, plus bringing back naming of medals with the recipiant details and ensuring the best manufacturing quality by the RCM).

While our system still has its shortcomings, I don't think any of the frustrations around the lack of a modern Canadian V.C. award need to be directed at him personally. Its easy to forget how terrible and lacking the range of Canadian Honours were in the 80s and 90s.

Nevertheless, I would be very interested to one day read all the recommendations, Record of Discussions, and relevant documents regarding the various Military Valour Decorations committee meetings and decisons.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Carl is a great dude who is passionate about H&A and has dedicated most of his career to improving the Canadian Honours System (among other efforts, I believe he was the lead on the design and creation of the SWASM, GCS, GSM, and OSM, plus bringing back naming of medals with the recipiant details and ensuring the best manufacturing quality by the RCM).

While our system still has its shortcomings, I don't think any of the frustrations around the lack of a modern Canadian V.C. award need to be directed at him personally. Its easy to forget how terrible and lacking the range of Canadian Honours were in the 80s and 90s.

Nevertheless, I would be very interested to one day read all the recommendations, Record of Discussions, and relevant documents regarding the various Military Valour Decorations committee meetings and decisons.

It is no slight towards the member, and I have no doubt his passion and efforts have been well worth it.

That said, institutionally, it can have an affect on the public perception of procedure and fairness when one position has stayed stagnant for over two decades. Hell even the process itaelf might be due for a revamp if it's been noted to be biased, inefficient, or redundant.