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Constructing the CCG Hero class [Merged]

chrisf

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Oldgateboatdriver said:
Let's deal with Transport Canada certification first: Point one here is, I am not sure that the Coast Guard fleets needs it (anymore than we, in the Navy need it either). But even if it was required, Transport Canada inspection/certification of Canadian flagged ships only addresses whether the proper pubs, charts, and life saving equipment is carried onboard and up to date and whether all the ship's paperwork is in order. Those certification have nothing to do with seaworthiness and do not address that aspect. So it is of no use in this discussion

I'm not familiar with the Navy, but I assume they have some sort of internal department to issue the appropriate certificates.

The Coast Guard does not.

Transport Canada Marine Safety absolutely does issue the required certificates of sea worthiness (not just the usual flag state stuff) to Coast Guard vessels on behalf of the Canadian Government, and they don't sail without the certificates.

Czech_pivo said:
Also, has Transport Canada ever not certify one of our own ships?  Would they even be allowed to be that bold?

Yes, has happened many times.

Same thing happens as any other ship not being certified.

You're given a list of deficiencies, and it's up to the ship owner to fix them.

With most privately owned ships, this usually leads to a cost-benefit analysis of the cost of repair vs replace.

Most government ships are usually just repaired.


We now come to Lloyd's. First, as pointed out, the survey is a few years old - and in old ship's estimating life time of the hull/machinery is not easy. Yet, the Lloyd's surveyors are professionals who work with limited information (the surveys are usually carried out with the ship in the water - not in dry dock - so many things are hidden to them) and usually do a good job of it. However, they are usually called upon to make a survey in order for the ship to be insurable. Canada, like most Western nations, self-insures it's own ships. Why the needs for a survey then? Because that survey was done shortly before the Hudson was turned over to a shipyard for her last refit ( the one that was screwed up). That survey was made so the yard could insure the ship while she was in their custody. It likely took into consideration the expected result from that refit work in coming to its conclusion.

As of a few years ago, Lloyds was taking over from Transport Canada Marine Safety in the role of surveyors on the coast guard vessels.

My understanding is that the ships were still "under written" by the Government of Canada, however Lloyds was would be acting as surveyors on behalf of the government of Canada.

This leads to problems on a few ships, when Lloyds inspectors suddenly found problems that had been previously overlooked by Transport Canada Inspectors (not intentionally... but that's a whole different discussion).

I'm not certain if Lloyds is acting as the surveyor for the Hudson if they were were in 2016, but that may be why they were commenting on it's condition.

Colin P said:
Sadly my trust in the current senior management of the CCG is limited, much of it has no sea going experience and more concerned about their careers than ships.

https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM                                                                                                             
 

Stoker

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So if Davie was so concerned about the present condition and safety of CCGS Hudson why not instead of addressing their concerns to Public Works, send it to the Transport Canada who is obligated to investigate marine safety complaints and have done so in the past to the Canadian Coast guard? I wonder why they didn't
 

chrisf

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I assume because they're a private company doing what's in the best interest of their business.

In fairness, their statement is concerning the next refit, not an immediate concern with the vessel (though personally, I've witnessed one coast guard vessel sinking due to poor condition/age... and that one was a good bit newer than the hudson)
 

Colin Parkinson

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We are not alone.....

https://thenewsrep.com/113374/coast-guard-sends-scuba-divers-under-ailing-icebreaker-in-antarctica-and-thats-not-all-that-went-wrong/?fbclid=IwAR1UKU0R0GYo35OP-rH_495IYs4w0Z_QnCEOVDBvmjRghOssP_TV3GSI_7o

America’s only operational heavy icebreaker, the Polar Star, reached McMurdo Station in Antarctica earlier this week, breaking through ice as thick as 21 feet along the way to clear a path for a cargo vessel to resupply America’s Antarctic operations. This marks the sixth such voyage in as many years for the Polar Star, but the voyage wasn’t without some serious setbacks for the aging ship.

The 150 Coast Guardsmen aboard the Polar Star may have had concerns about their missed paychecks during the voyage, but there was hardly time to lament personal financial concerns amid a number of serious issues plaguing the vessel. At one point, the ship’s 1970s-era electrical system began to smoke, which caused damage to other wiring and one of the ship’s electrical switchboards. Soon, one of the two evaporators used to produce potable water for the crew failed. Then, a leak around the icebreaker’s propeller shaft stopped the ship in its tracks, forcing the vessel to deploy scuba divers to repair the seal as it took on water.


Rest on link
 

Czech_pivo

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Colin P said:
We are not alone.....

At one point, the ship’s 1970s-era electrical system began to smoke, which caused damage to other wiring and one of the ship’s electrical switchboards.


Rest on link

Man, those guys are lucky to have 1970s-era electrical systems, we've got to deal with 1960s era on the St. Laurent.  :rofl:
 

Spencer100

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if nothing else...cool picture in the article.  Gives a great view of the size of the prop.  Super clear water too. 

 

chrisf

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Czech_pivo said:
Man, those guys are lucky to have 1970s-era electrical systems, we've got to deal with 1960s era on the St. Laurent.  :rofl:

On the Louis S St Laurent?

Other than her prop motors, most of her major systems have been replaced at some point. (Edit: i think the prop motors have also been rewound and rebuild at some point, but technically "original)

She was converted from steam-electric to diesel-electric in 1993.

She's usually more reliable than some of the newer vessels, and physically in good condition, though would never pass any modern standards for crew accomodations.
 

Uzlu

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Davie takes aim at shipbuilding strategy

Chantier Davie Canada Inc. just fired a big shot at the federal government in its ongoing war to discredit the national shipbuilding strategy.

In a letter, the Levi, Que., shipyard declined to bid on refit work for the coast guard’s science vessel CCGS Hudson, saying its condition “presents a serious and real threat to safety of life at sea.” The ship, which entered service in 1963, is the oldest in the coast guard fleet, at 56.

I have spoken with former crew of the Hudson who feel this statement is off base. The ship is still safe, despite its age, but things are wearing out, thus the requirement for the work period. According to the request for proposals, the refit work is scheduled for Feb. 25 to July 15 this year and includes significant steel work, tank replacement, and replacement of watertight openings.

The work will need to pass a Lloyds Register inspection. Lloyds Register is a class society, which exists to inspect vessels’ hull and machinery against the societies technical standards. If the vessel meets those standards, it is said to be “In Class” and insurance underwriters have assurances that a loss will not be the result of a design or construction defect.

Transport Canada also makes use of class societies under its delegated statutory inspection program or DISP.

The DSIP essentially allows Transport Canada to accept a class society’s confirmation that a vessel meets the required safety standards without having Transport Canada independently inspect the ship. Most coast guard vessels are classed by the American Bureau of Shipping or ABS. The Hudson is classed with Lloyds Register.

The presence of the class society notwithstanding, Transport Canada Ship Safety has an obligation to inspect and detain any ship that it becomes aware may be potentially unsafe. I have heard stories of coast guard vessels being detained by the coast guard in the past due to various issues.

Davie’s letter should be considered a notification that the ship is unsafe, requiring Transport Canada to take action.

Davie’s letter was addressed to the public works procurement contact, suggesting the letter was more of a political statement than a legitimate safety concern, though since becoming public, Transport Canada would have a responsibility to act.

A request to Transport Canada, to confirm if they received the letter from Davie, or if they consider its publication to be sufficient grounds to investigate, and to find out what actions they have taken, was acknowledged, but not answered by deadline.

CCGS Hudson’s last refit began in 2016 and went over schedule into 2017. The failure to meet the schedule was largely blamed on the Heddle Marine Shipyard in Hamilton, Ont. where the work was carried out, rather than issues with the ship.

Davie is campaigning hard for work under the National Ship Building Procurement Strategy, and is attempting to suggest that the plan is a failure. While ships are being built, only so many vessels can be constructed at once in the two yards awarded contracts, and Davie is trying to suggest they should get some of the work to expedite fleet renewal.

The federal government certainly didn’t do any favours to the Canadian shipbuilding industry when they declined to build any new vessels in the ’90s and 2000s leading to a situation where the Coast Guard fleet, plus a portion of the Navy's fleet, needs renewal at once. The current government is now wearing it.
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/business/shipping-news-davie-takes-aim-at-shipbuilding-strategy-279912/
 

Stoker

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Uzlu said:
https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/business/shipping-news-davie-takes-aim-at-shipbuilding-strategy-279912/

Very familiar discussion on another social media forum i'm on and what I been saying all along. We'll see what happens now.
 

Colin Parkinson

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They don't miss a beat: 

News from Newfoundland and Labrador: What a proud moment! Our new icebreaker, CCGS Captain Molly Kool, and the crew has officially received their first assignment! On January 29, they escorted a tanker through the ice, outbound from Charlottetown Prince Edward Island.

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoastGuard/posts/541310636351699?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARDJKMjXp-pFC1bXcCvjo0_mckNpr2TRrn9T_bcaFxwHdSiFH9dApZ9lhnFL2MsDZRyXjjIzpbDisLoWcdRDkQqQhC8v5q9ZxsuEa3sh3DUzN212QSrL6Nai-ITiZCpzz_r5bvXH7IEIlfxnkr-IFbeE2XUCqFuzvUUWSd_JXLkKix38ARyOqkZGtxmGrmiXTtYvTXbeySVzbAhWEa1PezG43SaC2BdWwlpxn_-OhYaiMcT0q7LXkKZFf7GYrs1MtZFloTsnL2wgTVDlqqVutF2bg9TGpXU0sCnCoKZSzralBArYMuqtA_drxDMANcu6riAReZkYcUrhB1CYoJQovku0uzZMbdOSyClqyHM7uKrCKJs4_8C5eNs0nD_4HGz8TClJHGXJGFVmZypj6vFexcavZWuq8ZyTJsFJNHJs_6h6A1dINSRCCk6fKTo0yvMlz-tqT7VzVv2OXjTlCYIND-a1D_DrJjlylgzKTMmKwUq-GfRpEUbLXxO-jed79fClxGRewj0_7B5SHiYhpAc&__tn__=C-R
 

Colin Parkinson

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Some upbeat stuff on the new ship https://www.facebook.com/CanadianCoastGuard/videos/2379913598689408/
 

Kirkhill

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Meanwhile: Our new Hero MSPVs

Canada's $227-million fleet of mid-shore coast guard vessels are rolling "like crazy" at sea, making crews seasick and keeping some ships in port during weather conditions where they should be able to operate, CBC News has learned. 

The coast guard decided it did not need stabilizers when the ships were being built, but has been considering retrofitting them since 2017 amid criticism from commanding officers and others who serve on board.

The coast guard denies there is any problem with the safety and stability of the fleet. However, in a March 2017 "configuration change request" to have stabilizers installed, coast guard project manager David Wyse described "an increased hazard of crew injuries and program failures.

"All vessel operators agree the Hero class vessels require stabilizers in all area of operation," Wyse wrote. "Program operations can suffer [due] to the fact that the vessels have extreme roll in high sea state conditions."

More than a year later, in May 2018, Wyse relayed an unidentified at-sea testimonial: "I'm rolling 15 degrees port and starboard (30 degrees total) out here today and the winds are less than 10 knots and seas are less than one metre. We need to make this platform more workable."

"By the way stabilizers should never have been removed from the original design. Please put them back ASAP. Losing a few cubic metres of fuel space will be a minor factor compared to the huge gain in stability, safety and comfort for the crew."

An analysis of options prepared for the coast guard by a Dartmouth, N.S., naval architecture firm said stabilizers were intended as original equipment.

"Due to many changes to the original design the vessel had become too heavy and it was decided to drop the stabilizers to save weight and reduce hull resistance," said an assessment by Lengkeek Vessel Engineering prepared for the coast guard.

Stabilizers would add weight
Mario Pelletier, deputy coast guard commissioner, disputes that, and said stabilizers were never dropped because the coast guard never asked for them.

He said they are now being considered as part of planning for a mid-life modernization. In the meantime, the coast guard is grappling with the added weight and space that would be required to put them on.

"We're going to do the feasibility study and I think it looks promising but there will be trade-offs that fleet will have to agree to (carry less fuel, vessels that go slower because of the appendages) so I don't know that you'd be in a position to promise stabilizers," wrote DFO naval architect Tracey Clarke in a May 2017 email to David Wyse.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/coast-guard-ships-can-t-handle-rough-seas-1.5009312

Do I detect a continuation of a pattern re coast guard design?

Top hamper. (Weight above the water line and superstructure)
Instability.
Decisions based on accounting principles rather than project management principles.  (The budget is more important than the intent of the project).

Getting a functional design out of PSPC and the DFO seems to have been a problem with the MSPVs (stabilizers), the OFSVs (stability), the OOSV (delayed design).  One can only hope that the Diefenbaker has been better managed.

And, for the record, the AOPS vessels took a functional design (Svalbard) and Canadianized it by changing the hull form and the propulsion system. 

In the words of Doris Day - Que sera, sera!
 

Colin Parkinson

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Never once did I hear the union complain on our behalf about the R Class boats and they rolled their guts out. the lifejacket under the bunk was pretty much standard and these boats would have been a definite step up.
 

Colin Parkinson

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you forgot the:

500 class - stability

47' Lifeboat - selecting a contractor that had never built a boat before, boat failed acceptance trials, contract finally given to a proper shipyard.

41'- utility boat - as above

70' Point class - welding so bad contract was cancelled after 2 boats out of the 9 scheduled

Weatherships - stability cured by filling fuel tanks for of concrete

Torpedo recovery vessels - Stability

Landing craft, fuel - poor design and weld quality

Sports fishing boat design that the Minister loved, bought for CCG - constant maintenance problems

R class - stability issues dues to CCG additional superstructure and rescue boat placement, engine problems, ended up with smaller less power Deutz over the design called for Cumins.
 

Navy_Pete

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Out of curiosity anyone know if they are top heavy, or did someone overdo it on the stability side?  For examples, the MCDVs can carry a crazy ice load and still be good, but means they are really stiff in normal conditions, so you get battered around with quick rolls (because the ship is so stable it is very quickly correcting any rolls).

Our normal warships have a much higher stability threshold than commercial ships (because of the damage survival requirements) so curious what kind of GM they have on the Hero class.

15 degree rolls in whitecaps and minimal wind seems pretty excessive though.
 

Kirkhill

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Colin P said:
you forgot the:

500 class - stability

47' Lifeboat - selecting a contractor that had never built a boat before, boat failed acceptance trials, contract finally given to a proper shipyard.

41'- utility boat - as above

70' Point class - welding so bad contract was cancelled after 2 boats out of the 9 scheduled

Weatherships - stability cured by filling fuel tanks for of concrete

Torpedo recovery vessels - Stability

Landing craft, fuel - poor design and weld quality

Sports fishing boat design that the Minister loved, bought for CCG - constant maintenance problems

R class - stability issues dues to CCG additional superstructure and rescue boat placement, engine problems, ended up with smaller less power Deutz over the design called for Cumins.

So there is no observable pattern then?  ::)
 

Greater_Ape

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One notable difference between the CCG MSPVs and the original Dutch design is how the RHIB is launched.  On the Damen 4207, the RHIB is launched from a stern ramp.  On the MSPVs, the RHIB is launched with a crane.  Why do it that way? Because the MSPVs are patrol vessels, and usually carry at least one Fishery or RCMP officer. When the RCMP was consulted, they wanted to be able to launch their own RHIB and do their police thing in a situation where the CCG FRC (Fast Rescue Craft, it's a RHIB but orange) had already been deployed on CCG business (SAR for example).  As far as I know however, only MSPVs on the Great Lakes carry two RHIBs at one time. On the other two coasts they only carry one.  Ironically, the RCMP has now backed away from the MSPV program on the Lakes, so now the CCG is left holding the bag.  Thanks RCMP.

The current scuttlebutt is that no engineer over 6ft will be assigned to work on a Mid-shore from now on.  There have been too many head injuries.
 

Colin Parkinson

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LOL. I served on the R class, trying to launch a RHIB from the top of the deckhouse was "interesting", recovering it was almost Russian roulette in any seaway. Hence the reason the 500 class got the stern ramp. They really became a floating SAR station supporting the Mk 7. The 500's could been an excellent design if they had chopped off a deck, lengthened it back to the original design and added a large towing winch. Currently none of the west coast SAR/buoy tenders vessels are set up for large vessel towing and that is just plain stupid.
 

Stoker

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N.L. company gets $10M contract to refit 56-year-old coast guard ship

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/hudson-retrofit-contract-awarded-st-john-s-dockyard-1.5015831?cmp=FB_Post_NL&fbclid=IwAR2scEfoyERxsX61mUoaEMGiVtvEigKsDnwcGIq91RkP9pBBhBB8aSqnUlI

 

Journeyman

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Chief Engineer said:
N.L. company gets $10M contract to refit 56-year-old coast guard ship
???  I am NOT a sailor or any sort.

I usually rely on credible site members to fill in the blanks and provide insights.  So, what are your thoughts on this Chief? Good? Bad? Indifferent?
 
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