Constructing the CCG Hero class [Merged]

[Colin Parkinson]

I went to the open house, it was a great time. The First OFSV is almost ready for launching, Hull #2 & 3 are moving along and the people say they have picked up some time from lessons learned. The actual yard was finished around Oct 2014, the design when delivered to the shipyard was badly flawed and required redesigning, who's fault was that? Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"

 

[jmt18325]

Any word when the OOSV might start?  The yard is supposed to be capable of building 4 ships at a time.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Also someone should ask, "Why have so many government designs been top heavy and require remedial work after the fact?"

Your answer is in your question, Colin: What else would the government of Canada design but something top-heavy? It's in their very nature to be top-heavy in everything they do.  ;D

 

[MarkOttawa]

Note this from DFO on CCG vessels from FY 2015-16 "Report on Plans and Priorities":

...
Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels
...
Design contract completion: February 2012
Contract Award for Construction Engineering: February 2013
Contract Award for Construction: 2014-15
First two vessels to be delivered: 2016-17 [now first 2018]
Delivery of final Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel: 2016-17 [other two now 2019]
...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2015-16/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html#s1.2

But 2016-17 and 2017-18 Reports do not even cover OFSVs:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2016-17/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Hmmm.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Hmmm Irving took 3 years to build the first Hero Class, about the same for the OFSVs, which will launch the first ones shortly. Seem according to the webpage that the construction contract for the Science vessel is not yet awarded.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Fifty-four year old CCGS Hudson can't even get refit done properly in Canada--for shame, how old must the fleet get?  Note last sentence in quote:

Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit
Marine research vessel Hudson towed from Hamilton, Ont., shipyard Friday with repairs unfinished

The Government of Canada is pulling the plug on the much-delayed refit of the venerable Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson. CBC News has learned the Coast Guard towed the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard Friday with the $4-million refit unfinished.

    $4M Canadian Coast Guard ship refit months behind schedule

The ocean science research ship arrived at Heddle Marine in Hamilton, Ont., in December 2016 for maintenance work that was supposed to be completed in May.

The Coast Guard won't say what went wrong and can't say when the ship will be back in service.
Towed to Burlington

"The Canadian Coast Guard and Public Services and Procurement Canada have worked closely with Heddle Marine to manage delays in the scheduled maintenance of the CCGS Hudson, and to bring her back into service in a reasonable time frame.

"Despite those efforts, the work has not been completed," spokesperson Vance Chow said in an emailed response to questions from CBC News.

On Friday, the 91-metre ship was towed across Hamilton Harbour to the Canada Centre for Inland Waters — a federal facility in Burlington — "to await the completion of the maintenance work required before she can return to service."

The Coast Guard says new timelines for the ship's return to service are currently under review.

The refit included overhauling the superstructure and masts, blasting and recoating the hull, replacing steel and repairing the rudder.
Refit future uncertain

When CBC News revealed the refit delays in August, the company said it had been instructed by the Coast Guard not to discuss the situation.

Heddle Marine spokesperson Shaun Padulo emailed a short statement in response to CBC News inquiries on Friday about the end of the refit.

"Although there were a number of challenges faced during the dry docking of the CCGS Hudson which led to delays in the completion of the work, Canada has accepted all of the completed work," Padulo wrote.

The Coast Guard has not responded to a request to explain the nature of the refit delay, how much work remains on the refit or who will pay.

The delay has already forced the cancellation of scientific cruises scheduled for the storied Hudson, which is Canada's premier marine research vessel. The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed.

https://milnet.ca/forums/index.php?action=post;topic=122642.25;last_msg=1505263

"The 54-year-old workhorse was supposed to be replaced several years ago, but that too has been delayed".  Both Harper and Trudeau governments have failed terribly to deal with the CCG's needs.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:

Departmental Plan 2017-18...

Supplementary information tables
Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel

Description: The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project will acquire a replacement vessel for the Canadian Coast Guard's largest science vessel, the Canadian Coast Guard Ship (CCGS) Hudson. This vessel was built in 1963 and its replacement is critical to fulfilment of the Department's science mandate as well as mandates of other government departments and agencies. The vessel currently operates on the east coast of Canada...

November 2015 - Contract award for construction engineering;
2018 - Contract award for shipbuilding; and
2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel.

...The Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project was initially approved in July 2008 at a total estimated cost of $108.9 million for the procurement of one vessel. In 2009, Treasury Board authorized a transfer of $35.5 million from the Offshore Fisheries Science Vessels project to the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project in light of revised funding profiles to procure these vessels. As a result, the Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel project currently has a revised total estimated cost of $144.4 million (under review).

To date, Treasury Board has granted $73.4 million to the project for the definition phase, including construction engineering [emphasis added]...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

CCGS Hudson details:

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71

New OOSV image:

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Seaspan page on vessels for CCG, plus RCN JSS--OPV/MEMTV are sometime middle next decade with luck, see end of the post:

https://www.seaspan.com/building

Seaspan president speaking 2015 (scroll down):

...It is only after the Polar [icebreaker] project that we get into a true production line with up to five Medium Endurance Multi-Tasked vessels and up to five Offshore Patrol Vessels...
http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/nouvelles-news/2015-06-12-eng.html

DFO 2017-18 Plan:

...
2024- Delivery of Polar Icebreaker [SURE]
...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

If anything like this happens (Congress and money) USCG could be a lot smarter than our shipbuilding (only one new icebreaker now planned):

US icebreaker investment could bring 2 bn windfall to Finland
The US is planning to acquire several new icebreakers for its Arctic fleet. Although rules prevent it from importing the ships directly, the Finns are counting on US manufacturers needing plenty of expert consultation and parts.

As its Polar-class icebreakers reach the end of their effective lifetimes, the United States is looking to quickly build a new fleet of heavy icebreakers. The state of Finland and over a dozen private Finnish companies are hoping the investment will be profitable for them as well, as suppliers and designers. A campaign is underway to convince the Americans to employ their services.

The US plan at present is to build three heavy and three medium polar icebreakers, with more built at a future date. The total cost of the first phase of the investment is estimated to rise to 4 billion euros.

The US has a law that prohibits the Coast Guard and Navy from buying certain vessels from foreign countries. The plan is to build each of the new high-tech ships at a single port somewhere in the United States, but it is also clear that the US will need help in this process.

Another law says that 51 percent of the vessel's parts must be made domestically, leaving 49 percent of the equipment, motors and design work free to be imported.

"If Finland were to win the entire share, it would be a deal worth two billion euros," says Ulla Lainio, an expert at Finland's export trade promoter Finpro, who is responsible for the organisation's maritime and offshore growth programmes.
"We've got a good chance"

Tero Vauraste from the state-owned polar vessel service Arctia says Finland has a good chance to finally break into the US icebreaker market with this latest development.

"The US icebreaking capacity is nowhere near its requirements. Finland, on the other hand, is number one in the field. We have expertise in the entire chain of services: from design to implementation to maintenance and repair," he says.

Next year's US budget is currently being wrangled over in Washington, and decisions on appropriations will be soon forthcoming. Over 20 Finnish firms – including leading systems providers and machine shops – have been lobbying for a piece of the pie...

The initial schedule has laid out that the first new US icebreaker be ready for action in 2023. This means that in order to leave enough time for the engines and speciality parts to be manufactured, procurement should start by the end of 2019 at the latest.

After the first ship is completed, the other two should be taken into use in 2025 and 2026...
https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/us_icebreaker_investment_could_bring_2_bn_windfall_to_finland/9872182

 

2023 would be before new CCG Seaspan icebreaker, supposedly to be delivered 2024:
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[chrisf]

It's good that they're getting ships, now they just need a crew to put on them...

http://vocm.com/news/coast-guard-confirms-some-ships-docked-due-to-phoenix-pay-issues/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

CCGS Hudson to be replaced by Seaspan-built OOSV--GOOD LUCK with DFO timeline:

CCGS Hudson details:

http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/Fleet/Vessel?vessel_id=71

New OOSV image:

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/mer-sea/sncn-nss/projets-projects-eng.html?wbdisable=true#s9

Mark
Ottawa

Not sure why they are showing the Tully which has been in service for years and has a good name for herself. Unlike the Sinclair which was an utter dog http://www.nauticapedia.ca/dbase/Query/Shiplist4.php?&name=James%20Sinclair%20%28F.P.V.%29&id=24974

 

[MarkOttawa]

Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

@chantierdavie

AIVIQ is a modern, powerful and highly affordable polar icebreaker which is immediately available for the Canadian Coast Guard #cdnpoli

November 2016:

Davie Québec Actually Going to Supply Some Icebreakers for Coast Guard?
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/11/18/mark-collins-davie-quebec-actually-going-to-supply-some-icebreakers-for-coast-guard/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[daftandbarmy]

Chantier Davie pitches it Aiviq icebreaker for CCG on twitter:
https://twitter.com/chantierdavie/status/918565826650890240

November 2016:

Mark
Ottawa

But how will that help the Prime Minister provide more support to Quebec?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Slightly bigger and more ice capable than an AOP's Not opposed to this as a supplementary Ice Breaker/Rescue ship to the CCG. Not sure she would be good for buoy tending.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiviq

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

She's an anchor handling and supply ship for oil platforms. As such, she has two large cranes with high ratings, a good working deck aft and cargo holds for chains, anchors and all other associated paraphernalia within reach of those cranes. If you're set up to drop, move or recover oil platforms anchors in very specific locations, seems like a pretty reasonable set up for buoy work to me.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE

 

[MarkOttawa]

C'mon man! #200M per year to keep old vessels afloat, nothing for new ships:

Liberals promise new funds for cash-strapped coast guard, fisheries department
'Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair'

The Trudeau government has promised an infusion of much-needed cash for the Canadian Coast Guard and federal Fisheries Department, which documents show have suffered from years of chronic underfunding.

The question is whether the new funding will be enough.

The new money was included in the federal fiscal update, which the Liberals released to much fanfare on Tuesday, and works out to more than $1.2 billion over the next six years.

The government says the funds will be used in a variety of ways, including maintenance to keep the Coast Guard's aging ships, navigational aids and communications equipment in working order.

Money will also be used to train new staff, monitor fish stocks, upgrade radio and information networks and for icebreaking services.

The new funds will no doubt be welcomed by coast guard and fisheries officials, who warned Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc when he took over the portfolio last year that they were struggling to make ends meet.

But University of Calgary professor Rob Huebert, who has worked closely with the coast guard, said the promised new cash represents a fraction of what is really needed.

"Good on them for helping on the operational side," he said. "But $200 million per year? Come on  [emphasis added]."

Demands exceeding Coast Guard budget

Briefing notes prepared for Leblanc and obtained by The Canadian Press show the toll has been particularly heavy on the coast guard, whose job is to protect Canada's waterways and keep them safe and open to trade.

The agency relies on a fleet of 116 ships and 22 helicopters as well as 17,000 navigational aids and a network of 300 radio towers across Canada to accomplish this task.

But the briefing notes say that the demands placed on the coast guard had exceeded its $1.1-billion budget, which had forced officials to start making trade offs.

"For several years," officials wrote, "CCG has been attempting to protect these services from reductions by reallocating funds from maintenance."

The decision to divert money away from maintenance isn't insignificant given the age of the coast guard's fleet, with many of its ships more than 30 years old and some approaching 50 [emphasis added].

"Operating aging vessels is challenging, as older ships break down more frequently and cost more to repair," Leblanc was told. "In 2013-14, 1,595 operational days were lost due to breakdowns."
Financial challenges

The government is working to replace some of those ships as part of its national shipbuilding strategy, starting with the delivery of a new offshore fisheries science vessel early next year.

But the entire strategy has been marred by delays and cost overruns, which has forced the government to look for stop-gaps such as refitting extremely old ships or, when that won't work, leasing privately owned vessels.

In the meantime, government officials have said they are reviewing both the construction schedules and budgets of the new vessels.

The coast guard's overall financial situation was considered so severe last year that the government quietly ordered a review of its real financial risks and requirements, though it's unclear where that review sits...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/liberals-fiscal-update-coast-guard-1.4372059

Sunny ways for CCG and CAF, eh Justin?  Heck, these are just core federal responsibilities but you'd rather bribe people with their descendants' money for votes (if not their own if the crunch comes sooner).

Hurl.

To repeat what it's all about, from 2016:

Canadian Coast Guard Going Down
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2016/04/05/mark-collins-canadian-coast-guard-going-down/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Jarnhamar]

Did we give that $241 million to the Clinton Foundation yet?  Seems like the CCG could use it more.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Mind you the CCG fleet is young compared to the USCG.

 

[chrisf]

Generally buoy work done over the side rather than the rear, plus her draft is a good 10' more than a 1100, buoy work often means being close in to hazards. She be good at deep sea ODAS's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tB6XfEfwJHE

The draft would be the only issue.

Bouy deployment and recovery is regularly done by off shore supply vessels of similar design, wave rider weather bouys are regularly launched and recovered in the fields off Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.

If you've got rail cranes or a crane at the stern, then doing it over the stern is ideal, in most supply vessels, the stern is specifically designed for running chain,.

The CCGS Grenfel is regularly employed in a supplementary role as a bouy tender, her cranes are pedestal boom cranes, fixed in position just aft of the superstructure, I've never been on her for bouy tending, but I would assume they'd flake the chain on deck and run it out from the "rescue zone", mid ship.

The CCGS Terry Fox also lays the occasional bouy.

Practically speaking, most of the "smaller" bouys are laid from the work barges anyway, even some of the larger ones are as well, depending on the area.

The Aiviq would be a poor dedicated bouy tender, but if she had a work barge, she'd certainly be able to fill in here and there, and in fairness, it's not a lack bouy tenders that's the coast guards primary concern, it's a lack of ice breakers.