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Constructing the CCG Hero class [Merged]

  • Thread starter Thread starter jollyjacktar
  • Start date Start date
Nice looking boats, but the CCG management will look at them and say: "Other than burn fuel at painful rates, what else can they do?" They want it to drag gear for science collection, do some buoy tending, etc.

You be surprised where the USCG took their Island Class, including Alaska and talking to an XO on one that we tied up alongside, they went offshore as well. Also clutched in at idle was 9kts......
 
Over to Congress for funding:

Coast Guard Budget Would Fund 1st New Heavy Icebreaker in 40 Years

The Coast Guard finds itself in a significantly different budget environment this year -- not only is the service requesting a sizeable bump in funding, the money would help pay for its first new heavy icebreaker in 40 years.

The service asked for a total of about $11.7 billion in funding for fiscal 2019, an increase of $979 million, or 8.4 percent, over its previous request, according to a document released Monday as part of President Donald Trump's budget request.

Last year, by comparison, the service faced a $1.3 billion cut before launching a massive and ultimately successful public relations campaign to underscore its importance to national security despite being the smallest of the U.S. military services and the only one to fall under the Department of Homeland Security rather than the Defense Department.

The additional money for the fiscal year beginning Oct. 1 would include $750 million for a new heavy icebreaker slated for delivery in 2023, according to the budget document. The funding would go toward building "the Nation's first new heavy Polar Icebreaker in over 40 years," it states.

The money "continues efforts to award a contract for detail design and construction to maintain scheduled delivery for a new icebreaker in 2023. Specifically, funding provides detail, design, long lead time materials, construction, program management office support, feasibility studies and maintaining the indicative design, cybersecurity planning, project resident office initiation, and Navy reimbursable technical support [emphasis added, more money will be needed to finish it]," the document continues. "This acquisition is recapitalizing the Coast Guard's heavy polar icebreaker fleet."

The Coast Guard wants to replace the barely seaworthy Polar Star for Arctic missions with a fleet of three heavy icebreakers. Last fall, it released a draft request for proposals from potential builders for a new heavy icebreaker design. The service also wants to build three medium icebreakers...
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/12/coast-guard-budget-would-fund-1st-new-heavy-icebreaker-40-years.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
Well, Colin, the management didn't ask that when they use Cape Roger, Cygnus, Leonard J. Cowley or the Grenfeld, because all they can and actually do is fisheries patrol and, secondarily, high seas SAR.

All four patrol vessels I propose above can do that and more - for starters they can all carry/operate a larger helicopter (medium as opposed to light, medium meaning EH101/NH90/Cormorant/Cyclone). All carry firefighting gear (only Grenfeld currently does); the Adroit, Damen product and Otago can carry containerized pollution control equipment and, all four carry larger and better Rhib's for fisheries boardings. The Damen product and Otago can carry mission containers at the back and have cranes to operate whatever they contain. The current four patrol vessels can't do that.

As for fuel consumption, in terms of actual fuel consumed per NM, they are all in the same range as the four current Coast Guard vessels, which is approx. 1.4 to 1.7 cu ft of fuel per Nautical Mile.

However, I think we are straying from the topic, here, which is the Coast Guard is going down, and in this case, more particularly, the East coast fisheries protection vessels are falling apart and need urgent replacing - now - not in 15 years.

 
Fwiw...

Only the cygnus/cape roger/cowley are intended to perform fisheries patrol work on the grand banks.

Only the cowley can carry a helicopter, but it very seldom does.

The cygnus and roger have helidecks but no hanger.

The grenfel has never had an intended role, and the unofficial story, as i understand, is that it was bought to bail out the yard that built on spec for the oil industry but couldn't sell it (don't quote me on this part, thats just what I collected from grumblings)

It found its niche refueling light stations, built as a PSV, it had substantial cargo tanks for fuel, a large pump and liquid cargo manifold...

With the demise of diesel powered light stations, it really served no purpose.

Its not an ice breaker, so its limited for a lot of work the coast guard does.

Mostly it fills in for other vessels when they're under going maintenance, and spends a lot of time in St Johns harbour doing dedicated SAR standby.

They cold stacked it a few years ago, and were going to dispose of it, but there was a public out cry as the general public saw it as a loss of SAR assests (it was old junk slowly sinking in the dark)

When the Ann Harvey was damaged, they immediately invested a substantial amount to bring the Grenfel back into service, but it can't do everything the Harvey could.

If it were an anchor handler, or could break ice, or even if it wasn't 31, it might not be so bad, but the fact that its in service now is a testament to how desperately new ships are needed.

One huge asset many of the coast guard vessels have going for them is their miranda davits.

Its sort of a cross between a conventional single point luffing davit, and a skate davit.

They're able to launch and recover an FRC in much heavier weather than most ships can.

They're quite rough on the paint, but they're extremely good as far as FRC davits go.

With any luck, we'll see these on future vessels.
 
Frankly the 1100's are a great design all around and one of the few multi-task ships I have seen that really does well at all the tasks given to them. Speed is the only thing they don't do well. We should have slowly been churning out this design with minor modifications over the years and you would have a newer fleet and more common design allowing crews to cross deck easier. 
 
Agreed, 1100 is a great design/concept for what it does.

A few new technology upgrades would make leaps and bounds on top of an already good basic vessel design and concept...

- DP1 conning system
- Automated machinery space
- Constant tension towing winch
- more reliable propulsion system
- modern crane

Some of those items are already planned for the midlife on the existing ships...

First step with the midlife program is the turn the Ann Harve back into a ship instead of a barge ;)
 
Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.
 
Colin P said:
Just imagine if they had been churning out 1 every 2-3 years from the same yard. build 20 in total and then you could start on replacing the first one.

Isn't that the whole reason behind the programme: to ensure that we are never in this position again?  The painful part is trying to catch up.
 
A truly sorry saga--and no replacement until early 2020s from Seaspan:

Heddle Marine paid 98% of contract for botched Hudson refit
Federal government still won't say what went wrong with the refit

The end may be in sight to the sorry saga of the 2017 refit-gone-wrong of Canada's premier scientific research vessel the Canadian Coast Guard Ship Hudson.

But not before a government disclosure that Heddle Marine Services has been paid nearly 98 per cent of the $4-million contract price, even though the refit ran six months late and was still unfinished when the government yanked the Hudson out of an Ontario shipyard, fearing the vessel would be trapped in the Great Lakes for a second winter.

"To date, a total of $3,912,221.92 (HST excluded) has been paid to Heddle Marine Service Inc," said Coast Guard spokesperson Vance Chow in a recent e-mailed response to CBC News.

Why Ottawa pulled the plug

The 54-year-old research ship went in for an exterior maintenance refit in December 2016.

The job was supposed to be completed in May 2017.

In October 2017, Public Services and Procurement Canada pulled the plug and had the Hudson towed out of the Hamilton, Ont., yard to complete the refit at a federal facility in nearby Burlington, Ont.

The Coast Guard said at the time only a minor amount of work remained.

    $4M refit contract for coast guard research vessel under review

    Why Ottawa yanked a Coast Guard ship out of $4M refit

Coast Guard Commissioner Jeffrey Hutchinson later told a parliamentary committee "the work as being done and was generally being accepted" but delivery dates were being missed and winter was closing in.

"We had to do a very basic calculation and that is that the seaway closes on a given day and we needed the Hudson back on the East Coast before the seaway closed," Hutchinson said.

The delay forced the Coast Guard to spend more than $2.5 million chartering vessels to carry out at-sea surveys because the Hudson was not available.

Still no explanation from federal government

The government still won't say what went wrong with the refit.

"Discussions between PSPC, the CCG (Canadian Coast Guard) and the contractor are still ongoing concerning the nature of the delays," said Chow...

The CCGS Hudson is now back at home base in Dartmouth undergoing a scheduled interior refit being carried out alongside by Heddle Marine.

Ottawa awarded the $840,000 tender to Heddle Marine Service Inc. (NL), which it maintains is a separate operating entity from Heddle Marine Services.

The two companies share the same website...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/heddle-marine-services-hudson-retrofit-payment-1.4540213

[DFO] Departmental Plan 2017-18 Supplementary information tables
Status report on transformational and Major Crown Projects
Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel

...
2020 - Tentative delivery of Offshore Oceanographic Science Vessel...
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/rpp/2017-18/SupplementaryTables/mcp-eng.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
The saddest thing here is seeing a 54 year old ship being described as "Canada's premier scientific research vessel". It really shows how seriously Canada takes its scientific research and supports the various agencies carrying such work.

:facepalm:
 
CCG can only watch in envy and dream:

Coast Guard set to release new heavy icebreaker RFP

The Coast Guard’s top officer announced Thursday that the service is set to release its request for proposal as early as Friday for its long-awaited heavy icebreaker replacement.

Adm. Paul Zukunft told an audience at the annual State of the Coast Guard address that the RFP will go out to five potential vendors [emphasis added] and will be a comprehensive set of requirements and specifications for the new cutter.

We need the first one in the water by 2023 so we are on an accelerated timeline,” Zukunft told a group of reporters. “We are still predecisional on the 19 budget but we’re optimistic that this isn’t just a request but that the funding is there to match it. Now this is just the first one, we’re looking at a fleet of six [emphasis added], but this gets the ball rolling. We’ve been working this for 20 years now but we’re getting out the the starting blocks and we need to sprint.”

The Coast Guard is looking to build a fleet of three heavy and three medium icebreakers in the coming years.

Zukunft also left open the possibility that the Icebreaker might need to be armed at some point in the future to counter Russia’s increasingly assertive presence in the region...
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/03/01/coast-guard-set-to-release-new-heavy-icebreaker-rfp/

Sigh.

Mark
Ottawa
 
More on Finnish shipbuilder Arctia's offer of icebreakers for CGG vs. Davie's:

Exposed in the north: Canada falls behind in developing the Arctic
...
HELSINKI — A map of the North Pole, with a miniature Finnish flag pinned squarely in the middle, decorates the small coffee table in Tero Vauraste’s Helsinki office, one that actually floats atop the Gulf of Finland. As the current chair of the Arctic Economic Council and chief executive of Finland’s icebreaker powerhouse Arctia Inc., the north is familiar territory to Vauraste — much like the frigid -26 C temperatures outside his office in late February.

At the moment, Vauraste is feeling a bit frustrated with the Canadian government.

Arctia wants to supply Canada with several much-needed interim icebreakers. The state-backed company believed it was on track to help provide the fleet, until Prime Minister Justin Trudeau in January went on CBC/Radio-Canada and said the government was beginning negotiations with the Chantier Davie Canada Inc. shipyard in Quebec to lease three icebreakers.

“That was, for us, a big surprise and quite unexpected,” Vauraste said, pointing out Arctia has icebreakers ready to send to Canada.

Perhaps he shouldn’t have been surprised that Canada doesn’t seem to be in a rush to replace its aging fleet of icebreakers. Experts say that’s just one example of how Canada is struggling to keep pace with the Arctic research and development being conducted by Nordic countries such as Finland, as well as Russia and China...

Arctia, which provides most of the world’s icebreakers, had submitted a proposal to the Canadian government after a request for information was opened more than a year ago. The company was hoping to lease part of its existing fleet to Canada on an interim basis.

“Our proposal was that we could work together by enhancing our current capacity. We already have a fleet of one to five icebreakers, which was requested, that could work in the Canadian Arctic without any big conversions,” Vauraste said. “The vessels are more or less ready to start working there any day… so it’s frustrating.”

A spokesperson for Public Services and Procurement Canada said the government is currently in negotiations with Chantier Davie regarding three medium-sized icebreakers.

“Our government is focused on providing the women and men of the Canadian Coast Guard with the equipment they need to do their work in a timely and efficient way, and at the best cost to Canadian taxpayers,” spokesperson Jean-François Létourneau said.

Interim icebreakers don’t provide a long-term solution for Canada’s aging fleet, where the average age is approaching four decades, but they would partly address the country’s lagging profile in the Arctic...
http://business.financialpost.com/transportation/finland-feature

Endless flipping Canadian gov't blah, blah, blah...i.e. Jobs! Jobs! Jobs! (and Quebec).

Mark
Ottawa
 
3 medium icebreakers? I guess that means AIVIQ is off the table. Great. It was the piece of PROJECT RESOLUTE that would likely have the largest payoff, with TERRY FOX and LOUIS ST LAURENT in their golden years. 
 
Lots of people in Quebec getting upset over feds's delay in giving contract to Davie for its "Project Resolute" plans for four converted icebreaking vessels (zero coverage in English media)--note esp. at end of first story the Radio-Canada scoop that gov has been sitting on a six-vessel CCG "Program Icebreaker" for year and half.  Which Seaspan could not start on for another decade and Irving couldn't do with commitment to CSCs--so is idea to have Davie build them?  But when?  And what about Davie's workers and suppliers in the meantime.

Lots of political problems for both fed and Quebec Liberals:

1)
Brise-glaces et Davie : des doutes sur la volonté d’Ottawa


...Des documents stratégiques obtenus par Radio-Canada démontrent qu’il existe un plan que le gouvernement refuse de dévoiler publiquement. Il vise la construction de six nouveaux brise-glaces.

Cela s’inscrit dans ce qui a été baptisé « Program Icebreaker » et qui permettrait de remplacer graduellement la flotte actuelle dont l’âge moyen est de plus de 35 ans.

Les six navires desserviraient le sud du Canada et l’Arctique tout en permettant la tenue d’activités scientifiques. Leur construction est jugée essentielle pour réduire les risques qui pèsent sur l’économie insistent les documents qui précisent que l’industrie maritime n’est pas adéquatement desservie. Or, Radio-Canada peut confirmer que le gouvernement a ce plan en main depuis au moins un an et demi.

Cela soulève des questions étant donné que les chantiers Irving d’Halifax et Seaspan de Vancouver ont des carnets de commande déjà bien remplis. Pourquoi le gouvernement tarde-t-il à mettre le plan à exécution ? A-t-il subi les pressions des chantiers concurrents de Davie? Attend-il l’année électorale pour bouger ?

Pourtant, les libéraux ne cessent de répéter que le remplacement des vieux brise-glaces est une priorité.
http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1091392/brise-glaces-davie

2)
[PHOTOS] Ottawa pointé du doigt pour la lenteur des projets à la Davie
Les employés et les fournisseurs du chantier naval accusent le gouvernement de ne pas en faire assez pour la relance

http://www.journaldequebec.com/2018/03/26/photos-manifestation-des-employes-de-la-davie-au-bureau-de-duclos

Mark
Ottawa
 
Interesting that the first article mentions that the blockage to the negotiations would originate from the Coast Guard - not the government.

Similarly, it is a little weird that the same Coast Guard would produce a "icebreaker project" document for the government a year and a half ago indicating the immediate need for six new icebreakers (since they are for down South and Arctic as a secondary research duty - I assume those are class 3 or 4 river icebreakers) when they know full well that there is no way that Seaspan would be able to even begin construction of the first one for at least 12 years.

Is it possible that we have an internal conflict: The Government wants to move with the "interim" purchase - which Coast Guard officials suspect would lead to delays if not abandonment of their proposed "icebreaker project", so the Coast Guard is running interference to force the hand of the government into moving right away to the acquisition of six new icebreakers. I can see how many civil servants at Procurement Canada might feel that such action is akin to a "betrayal" of the NSPS, even if such ice breakers were never contemplated as part of it.

We may be seeing just the visible portion of an internal fight within the civil service here.
 
Industry to help coast guard with icebreaking

OTTAWA — The Canadian Coast Guard has been given new powers to call on industry for short-term help in clearing ice-choked seaways — even as plans for replacing the agency's aging icebreaker fleet over the long term remain in flux.

The new powers were outlined Tuesday as officials marked the start of the spring icebreaking season in the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, through which much of Canada's foreign trade flows.

The coast guard will be able to enlist pre-approved companies for help as needed without having to go through a formal bidding process, resulting in quicker and more reliable service for those in need, officials say.

The measure is intended as a last resort when the coast guard doesn't have enough icebreakers to respond, such as when one of its vessels has a mechanical breakdown.

Yet there are fears such a scenario will become increasingly common in the coming years as the coast guard's icebreaking fleet continues to get older — with no replacements on the horizon.

Officials stood by their aging vessels, noting the federal government has invested millions of dollars in the past few years to maintain and extend the lives of many of the coast guard's aging icebreakers.

"We have a very strong plan in place with scheduled and planned maintenance, refit and vessel life extensions to support the fleet renewal plan as we are moving forward with our assets," said assistant commissioner Julie Gascon.

"Our vessels are very capable and very reliable."

But the icebreakers, which are on average over 35 years old, have seen their share of problems in recent years — including one high-profile breakdown in January that left a ferry stuck in ice near Quebec City for four hours.

Concerns about the state of the fleet were also flagged in briefing notes to Fisheries Minister Dominic Leblanc back in 2016, where officials reported that 1,595 operational days had been lost due to breakdowns in 2013-14 alone.

The federal government's national shipbuilding strategy includes a new heavy icebreaker, but that vessel won't be ready until at least the mid-2020s, while work continues on plans for replacing the rest of the fleet.

"We've started consultations with industry and gone a long way already in analyzing what's available out there for different technologies that would benefit us for the long term," said Greg Lick, the coast guard's director-general for operations.

"The fleet-renewal plan is making good progress now in terms of its development. We don't have a specific timeline right now to share about when it will be completed. But we're well on our way toward doing that."

While Lick wouldn't dive into details, industry sources say the coast guard is undertaking a complete reassessment of exactly what types of ships it will need over the coming decades — a process that has already been going on for several years.

Questions include what to do with 10 vessels, some of whom can serve as medium and light icebreakers, that are supposed to be built by Vancouver-based Seaspan Shipbuilding after the heavy icebreaker is finished.

Those vessels were originally announced by the Harper government in 2013, at an estimated cost of $3.3 billion, and aren't slated for construction until the mid- to late-2020s.

In the meantime, the Trudeau government has been talking with Quebec shipyard Davie for the past two months about leasing several converted icebreakers to the coast guard as an interim option until full replacements are ready.

The two sides have yet to come to an agreement, however, in part because of a disagreement over whether one of the four icebreakers that Davie is offering can actually meet the coast guard's needs.

By Lee Berthiaume, The Canadian Press
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/8354221-industry-to-help-coast-guard-with-icebreaking/
 
Well, that is scary: The Coast Guard is looking at what icebreaking they can get from the 10 vessels planned for Seaspan after the Diefenbaker is built. They are the OPV's, the patrol vessels that are supposed to replace the current fleet of fisheries/high sea SAR vessels, not be employed in planned/day-to-day ice breaking ops.

Unless of course, the Coast Guard knows something we don't - like there won't be any fish to fish in our oceans by 2025 - so no need to patrol fisheries. ??? 
 
Or they have determined that the OPVs won't sea keep safely enough to do fisheries patrols, offshore, and are looking for some way of employing the vessels?
 
That would be a feat, since their actual design has not even been selected yet.

But even if you turn them into ice breakers to replace the current fleet, that still leaves the current patrol vessels to replace. Either way, one important part of the Coast Guard fleet gets to be 50 years old by the time its replaced.

The original idea of the NSPS was continuous build by the selected yard, but in the case of the Coast Guard, the state of the fleet does not really allow that option for the River icebreakers fleet and patrol fleet. The Government has to bite the bullet and get both at the same time if it doesn't want to lose one of those capabilities - with the consequences for Canadian industry, be it export/intn'l trade or fishing (because if we can't patrol, don't think for a moment that other nations won't come scooping our fish).
 
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