Cougars to Armoured Recce

[George Wallace]

There is no excuse for any unit not knowing their tactics.  The CF has numerous publications out.  For those in the Armour Corps there are Pams, like all other Corps, detailing operations and tactics.  There are The Armour Regiment in Battle, but more importantly for this discussion The Recognnaissance Squadron in Battle, Vol. 2 (B-Gl-305-002) and the Recognnaissance Troop Leaders Manuel (B-Gl-305-004).  These are available and just because people are not reading them and teaching from them is no excuse.

GW

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The key element that seems to be missing from this discussion is the difference between Surveillance and Recce - and the platforms that they will be conducted from.  Surv will be conducted from the Coyote (6, and perhaps 7 Reg Force Sqns).  Recce will be conducted from the LUVW C&R (9 Reg F Inf Recce Pls and 21 Res Armd Recce Sqns).  This means that Res Armd soldiers will finally be conducting training that is relevant to a deployable capability (ie LUVW mounted Recce) and any way that you look at that fact, it appears to be a good thing.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I agree. The point should be made, and it has been, that the Reserve Armd Recce Regts HAVE been doing "mud recce" for a number of years. Up til the time the Regs were re-roled, we were left to our own devices, told we were doing fine and to continue the good work we were doing. We were never given the opportunity to deploy in our task element, a la the "Light Vehicle Patrols", which the Infantry preffered to train R031's from scratch to do, including how to drive an Iltis, when there was plenty of Blackhatters already trained and itching to go. And now that the Regs have been given the role, they want to reinvent the wheel. How about asking the guys that have been doing it for years for input? Nope, we're just the orphan child again.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Which comes back to my point, that the Corps has totally dropped the ball on this.  The militia, with their hard earned expertise, could easily provide the close support recce so clearly needed.  The Coyote is a surveillance vehicle.  The mere removing of all of the surveillance kit, to make it a "recce" vehicle, does not really work.  The Coyote is too large, too limited in cross country mobility, not agile, too noisy, not too mention too darn expensive to make an ideal recce vehicle.

Combining recce and surveillance seems to me to be a no-brainer.  But, I guess that somewhere, my thinking must be fundamentally flawed.  Otherwise, we would be training for this, right?

 

[ackland]

Combining recce and surveillance seems to me to be a no-brainer.   But, I guess that somewhere, my thinking must be fundamentally flawed.   Otherwise, we would be training for this, right?

Amen to that they should be used together. it would be a great task for the armoured. As I understand it the RCAC is trying to become the specialist in ISTAR. Having the two combined elements of Coyote survalence with the on the ground mud recce would be a great start to the ISTAR process. ( sorry can't recall what ISTAR stands for)

This would also provide a great oppertunity for the reserves to augment the regs in more than just a CSS capacity. Reserves would no longer be limited to deploy as POL truck driver on tours. Also we could do combined ex with the regs.

Just another thought. Wouldn't it be great if the Mud recce did a Force on force against the Survailence recce. See how well the jeep boys could do against all that technology. I think it would be great fun and a great leraning experience for the reserve troops.

 

[12alfa]

  This means that Res Armd soldiers will finally be conducting training that is relevant to a deployable capability (ie LUVW mounted Recce) and any way that you look at that fact, it appears to be a good thing.

We have for some time. The will has not been there to deploy this force that has trained in it's role for years, why, well it's about deployabilty or this is what we are told. This is BS as most of you know.

I can't see this changing now that the reg force has become recce, or we now have g-wagons. People that think that it's all changed now are dreaming, the will is still not there!

We will not be deploying in any greater numbers than the past no matter what kind of spin you all put on it.

We will still have the same problems for deploying to operations, money, lack of direction, lack of reg for units willing to traing and deploy with res units. Nothing has change as far as i can see, maybe it has slipped under my radar, but I'm keeping a close search for the change you are all speaking of.
Maybe you can post some hard data to who has given hard proof that this situation we have had for the last 20 years has given the res unit a better chance to deploy in operations..........standing by.....

 

[Recce41]

OK
Heres some info.
1. The Cougar is gone by Dec 04. The Cougars left at the School are gone after the DP4.
2. Res Recce will be none Surv, like to old days. And what Res Recce Regts do now. As stated
3. The first Res Recce NCO course will be this Summer in Gagetown. God help us. It will be 6 Mods. It will be on the same lines as the RATLC, this summer.
4. ALL CO's of the Res wanted to go Recce. Yes 12A they did!
5. 80% of Ress are not up to the skills of the Regs. It's easier to train a soldier on tasks that can trained anywhere. Than to train a skill that take a training area. What I mean, is Recce troops can patrol in do patrols in cities or out in the areas. A training night of a patrol driving around TO, Wind, Edm. As in Bosnia, Kosovo,etc. Or going out and doing a tactical Ex in the county.
6. Its hard to even get a reser to stay the two weeks, let show for a 3 month course.
7. The school has TTPs and SOPs that soldiers can read on Recce. I had a hand in some of it. ( pat myself on the back). HAHAHA
8. To Armour Res, grow up, and do the job.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Quote: Recce 41

3. The first Res Recce NCO course will be this Summer in Gagetown. God help us. It will be 6 Mods. It will be on the same lines as the RATLC, this summer.

Dave:

What DP's are they going to cover? We've already ran the DP3 CC this summer, in Wainwright. It qual'd MCpl's to CC level in two weeks. Where is the DP3 Patrol Commander module? That's supposed to be Unit run and I have candidates ready to take it and I'm ready to run it, just need you guys to put it on Documentum.

 

[12alfa]

4. ALL CO's of the Res wanted to go Recce. Yes 12A they did!

Provide your proof please.

8. To Armour Res, grow up, and do the job.

We don't need child like comments like this do we?

If you new our history, we have been doing the job longer that you have been in the forces.

Are you now a expert also on the armd reserv's?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

12 Alfa said:

Are you now a expert also on the armd reserv's?

Much like you are a naval and submarine expert... :

 

[ackland]

Dave:

What DP's are they going to cover? We've already ran the DP3 CC this summer, in Wainwright. It qual'd MCpl's to CC level in two weeks. Where is the DP3 Patrol Commander module? That's supposed to be Unit run and I have candidates ready to take it and I'm ready to run it, just need you guys to put it on Documentum.

I have a bunch of MCpls in the the same boat. Has any one seen the CTP for the DP3 B for the Armoured Recce. I know the Reg's are running a trial in Gagetown at the moment. Can any one give a brake down of the PO's or a copy of the CTP?

 

[Recce41]

The info I recieved about the COs was from the QS/TP writing board, I attended. I was on the writing boards for the DP3 CC-TpWO, Reg/Res. As for an expert no. Just where I am employed. As for history, I am the School history dude. And as for doing it longer. Thats when Ress did the same job. The courses were the same length, they showed up for training. Not like today, O I cannot show up because my dog had puppies, No it was my fish that had the puppies and my dog died.

John
The Summer courses are being rewritten. The Officer and NCO courses will mirror. I feel bad for the Course WO. I'll try to e mail the courses when done. There will be a opening for DS. HAHA

 

[Lance Wiebe]

So, there's no TP available on Documentum for the Reserve Units?

 

[strat0]

Just to clarify some of the banter going on. The regular force has been conducting recce courses throughout the last 24 yrs. In fact I was on a Recce patrol Commanders course in 1989. The LdSH ran recce crew commanders courses for years. I know for a fact that in the late 70's and early 80's when a reg force Armoured unit ran a CLC part of that course at the end was Recce Patrol Commanding, reserves were loaded on this course as well, in Calgary anyway (reserve friends of mine took the course). The school also ran Advanced Recce courses for troop leaders and Snr NCO's, (I have this qual also) and ran a recce course (Crew Commanding, Patrol Commanding and Troop Leading) for all the tactical helicopter pilots and crew. In 2001 the school ran the ARSC (Armoured Recce Specialist Course) I instructed on it, took the exams and am therefore qualified this course as well. I took my 1st recce CC crse in 1980 with the BCD. I joined the Reg Force in 1985, I was put into Recce Sqn and stayed there my whole career.

There are lot's of reg force still in with the same background as me. Just a point, I was part of the Worthington Trophy test team in the west, I got to observe first hand reserve recce units, let's just say that when I was in the reserve in 1979-85, the units were far better trained than what I saw in 1994 and continue to see since 1997 while instructing reserve recce courses, however this does not go for all as there are a few that are very good at the job, but they are not the ones complaining. So whoever is saying reg force recce expertise does not exist is not aware of what has and is going on in the Corps as far as recce goes.

As far as the school providing training for reserve units, we do, we are responsible for INDIVIDUAL TRAINING, the courses are in place, the units are responsible for COLLECTIVE TRAINING, have at er, the Recce TTP's (Tactics Techniques and Procedures) are out there.

For proof of all CO's wanting to go recce, the only proof is: we were told by the school Commandant, ask your CO.

It is easier and faster to get reserve pers trained to the standard of reg force if all they have to take is a technical course, if they have the tactical background, they can conduct reconnaissance operations in whatever vehicle is provided once qualified.

Ref: How about asking the guys that have been doing it for years for input? Nope, we're just the orphan child again.
We are employing reserve Snr NCO's in Armour School Standards to write courses and have there input in the TTP's.
As far as doing it for years see the text above for reg force expertise, and by the way who have been instructing the reserves in individual training for many years.

Enough from me, I think that the reserve units are trying and to all those getting on with it BRAVO FOR YOU, I know you will do your best and do well. For those that think they know it all, think again, there is always room for improvement and even I continue to learn from those with new and intuitive ideas.  

 

[Recce41]

Strat O
You hit it on top. I have been at the school, for 2 yrs and have instructed the RTLC. With 22+ yrs of recce time, I believe I know a thing or two. As I stated. Any Res unit can train, where they are.
Lance
As of the last time I checked, no TTPs on Docm.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Strat O & Dave,
Don't recall saying that ONLY the Reserves knew recce and didn't ever say we knew it all. I implied we should be included (which we are, apparently) but I'm not here to get in a pissing match, I was looking for info to get my guys qualified. Just so you don't brush me off as another whiny Reservist, I also did Reg force recce in the 70's. Did it in lynx and scout car, with the 8CH in Pet and RCD in Germany, before moving to Centurion. As a new commander I was handed the Recce Tp Ldrs (guide to the galaxy) pam and told I would pick up the rest by osmosis. That was the training back then. (Remembering Lance as one of our new drivers )I've also instructed recce on Unit and National courses. I've been doing it again since we reroled almost ten years ago. I think my profile speaks for itself, I've been around the neighbourhood a long time, and longer than most. So now we can all stop thumping our chests, put our egos back in the helmet bag and try solve the problems that exist. I can recall being at the school and being shown the draft copy of the new recce doctrine and being told it would be out that spring. That was eight or nine years ago if memory serves. Still have'nt seen it. The system was changed as far as qualification when the DP system came in. We have guys to train, we need the info. We shouldn't all be designing courses and putting them forward for approval to run the course. It should be in place already. If there is the new TP for the DP3 Ptl Comdr out there somewhere, please PM me so we can get on with the job. If not, what are we going to do about it.

 

[12alfa]

12 Alfa said:


Much like you are a naval and submarine expert... :

Dough! :-X

 

[George Wallace]

No requirement for a FLAME WAR.   If we can't get information, because the Armour Corps hasn't really figured its new role in the Army in all this new restructuring, then we must use our imaginations and train our troops as best we can.   Both Reg and Res Units have experienced Recce soldiers of all ranks, who should be drawn upon to conduct "Refresher" training and teach their skills.  

The Armour Corps is in a time of upheaval.   No direction.    "ISTAR is the greatest thing since sliced bread and Armour is COLD WAR and obsolete" according to some 'Black Hatters' who really never knew what the role of Armour was, let alone Recce.   Some of these people are in the position to redesign the ARMY, and in my opinion have destroyed it.  

If Reservists don't know what is required of them for Recce, they are not alone.   The Reg Force is in the same boat.   Gen Leslie talked to us prior to us sending a BG to Afghanistan and Bosnia and stated that we would be a Recce Regiment when we came back; but he had no info as to new equipment with which to do that, even though we were losing our tanks.   Now we have men and no equipment and no equipment purchases in sight.   The end state is that now some of the Reg Force units are basically "Full-time Reservists" on a Call out for three years or end of contract.   Morale is high. :

There is no "true" Recce Vehicle for any of us to practice our craft.   Lessons learned on a vehicle such as a Coyote can be counter productive as they were with the Cougars as tank trainers (That is another subject all together).   The Recce Troop Leaders Manual is thirty years old and very hard to find.   (You are not getting mine.)   The Reconnaissance Sqn in Battle is more up to date, but still a little difficult to find.   The Recce Sqn SOPs are an amalgamation of Unit and School lessons, and still incomplete in many aspects.  

With no direction from above, that leaves all of us with our own imaginations and initiatives to garner all the experience we have in our units and teach what we know.

GW

 

[Recce41]

Dave
As I said, They are rewriting the TPs. The NEW course will be in Gagtown. The TTPs are TOO large to send via Email. I suggest get hold of Recce Standards at the School. They may feel the need to show up. I think I'd take that trip. Would be a trip to see the new Armoury. Plus try to size up a posting down there.
E mail me at work. I can give you a contact. When I was in the Trg Sqn (Recce Tp), we started to work on a new package. One of the new Lts from the RTLC may have a hard copy.  :evil: :tank:
And yes Dave I know you are just behind George and ahead of me here to be cased in glass. OOO shit I forgot about Lance. HAHAHA

 

[12alfa]

OH!!! , this is just to good to pass up.

Strat O & Dave, As a new commander I was handed the Recce Tp Ldrs (guide to the galaxy) pam and told I would pick up the rest by osmosis. That was the training back then. (Remembering Lance as one of our new drivers )I've also instructed recce on Unit and National courses. I've been doing it again since we reroled almost ten years ago.

RE; res's not qualified........

First off they are not qualified and don't have the proper taining in "Misfire Drills", operation of the Hydraulics, Submersion Hydraulics, Gunnery etc. as applicable.  They don't have knowledge of Safety in regard to Gun Drills.  On a whole there is a lot that we allow Reservists to do for familiarization that is WRONG.  You now have the impression from your experience Crewcommanding that you can do the job.  You may be totally out of touch with reality.  That is a fault that the Regs are compounding everytime they allow a unqualified person fill a position.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

GW


Told you it was good. right on the nose GW!