Court Martial discussion (merged)

[dapaterson]

For those interested, the Chief Military Judge page for the trial is at: http://decisia.jmc-cmj.forces.gc.ca/jmc-cmj/cm/en/item/99675/index.do

Sounds like they need to hire more trial lawyers to get things done in a timelier manner?

I seem to recall reading on this site someone positing that there are already too many lawyers doing courts martial in the CAF; because their case load is so low (especially compared to civilian lawyers) they have too much time for esoteric and outrageous motions, resulting in delays.

 

[kratz]

Doesn't insubordination need to happen in an operational environment or have an operational impact of some sort?

Interestingly no.
At a mess dinner, in uniform, identifiable as a CAF member,
all meet the bare minimum to act appropriately or be subject to the law.

 

[PuckChaser]

We're been pulling people back after retirement for years, why is this guy special? In fact, a lot pull-pin once they know they're going to a CM, hoping to avoid punishment/the whole process.

 

[brihard]

The CO of 2 Svc at the time was a no-nonsense type. I know her well. That the matter resulted in charges is utterly unsurprising, and not inappropriate. But that it has resurfaced after this length of timing IS odd to me. Not sure if it's any relevance, but 2 Svc is under new command now and has been since this past summer. I don't know if the new CO would have any impact on such a matter whatsoever.

 

[garb811]

If the delays were the fault of the RMP, getting the case dismissed would be easy peasy.  Since he has gone to the court of public opinion, it would appear to me the delays have likely been at the request of the defense...

 

[Underway]

I was at a unit when a member on his way out (2 weeks left I think), sent a very insubordinate email to the CO and BCC'd his DivO.  His release was delayed 6 months until the situation was dealt with.  Long story short, keep your crabbing to yourself until you are fully out of uniform.

 

[George Wallace]

There has to be more to this than we have seen in the published accounts. It does seem to me that as a superior when faced with a subordinate who is intoxicated and belligerent or obnoxious, usually the best course of action is to find a way to protect the individual from himself or herself.

Sometimes things don't work out and maybe the incident got too visible and too ugly.

I have to agree.  There is likely a lot more to this than what Mr Drapeau and client have told the media.  I just don't find it ethical that Mr Drapeau is playing this out in the media to make it a matter of "Trial of Public Opinion".  He must be grasping at straws to be trying to have it be a media circus of Public Opinion vs facts in Court.  Add to all that, the throwing in of the "I have PDST Catchall" as a defence and this is really going to prove interesting once it gets into the CM stage.

 

[ModlrMike]

Looking at the CM site, drunkenness is the primary charge, with two charges of insubordination as the secondary charges. So while the article might be factually true, it's not necessarily the correct or the whole truth. I also notice that the original trial was convened on 26 Jan 15, which might reduce the speedy trial argument.

I agree with others, there's clearly more to the story here than a simple insubordination whilst drunk. It will be interesting to read the transcript if the CM continues.

I must state however that I'm dismayed that he trotted out the "PTSD drugs made me do it" defence.

 

[chrisf]

If it wasn't important enough to delay his release, it's probably not important enough to waste resources on now, unless we're missing some extremely drastic details.

It's seems like an awful lot of money, time, and public good will to expend on something, with extremely little benefit. I realize discipline and order are important, but other then spooking a few people on the edge of retirement, what's to be gained?

 

[PuckChaser]

If it wasn't important enough to delay his release, it's probably not important enough to waste resources on now, unless we're missing some extremely drastic details.

If the JAG is backed up with cases, its likely he wouldn't get a trial for a year or 2. Look at all the decisions from last year, most are over 1 year from the date of the offense. We also don't know if he was already releasing, or pulled pin because he was told he was being charged.

I look at it this way, you get a public intoxication charge while on vacation in BC. You go home to Ontario, does that mean you don't have to worry about the consequences of your actions because you're not where you were charged? No, you still have to deal with it.

If he's not guilty, he should be happy to prove it in court. Crying to the CBC about getting "screwed by the man" is not the way to go about it. We're paying this lawyers and judges on salary anyway, I'd rather have them very busy doing things.

 

[Loachman]

We're paying this lawyers and judges on salary anyway, I'd rather have them very busy doing things.

Here - drink this six-pack while I discuss your mother's morals.

 

[chrisf]

I look at it this way, you get a public intoxication charge while on vacation in BC. You go home to Ontario, does that mean you don't have to worry about the consequences of your actions because you're not where you were charged? No, you still have to deal with it.

Not if you don't go back to BC.

I know Canadian Forces members love to see their own get eaten, and I have no doubt the individual in this case is doing his best to game the system to get out of a charge he knows he's likely guilty of...

But...

Like it or not, public good will is a commodity, and anyone who couldn't see a charge against a civilian being dragged out in public is blind.

As with anything else you do in uniform, apply the Globe and Mail test... ask "What will this look like on the front page of a national news paper?".

We know exactly what those headlines look like now.

So now in addition to man hours and money, you've also expended a whole lot of that public good will.

At some point, someone really needs to ask "Is this worth it?"

It's too late for that now, so march the guilty bastard in... but keep in mind, even if you get a conviction, and you put the details out in public, you're not going to win back any of that public good will by saying you proved he was drunk and said rude things.

 

[chrisf]

Oh, and as an added bonus, if you're making the Globe and Mail test on something, for any legal matters, you might as well add "What will Michael Drapeau say about this?" because that's invariably who they're going to go to for a sound bite.

 

[PuckChaser]

10 minutes from now, nobody is going to remember this dude's name, let alone that the CAF charged him for being rude. The CAF community, however, will remember we let someone get away with something because he cried to CBC and pulled pin to avoid justice.

Maybe he's not guilty, but the way to prove that is in actual court, not the court of public opinion. As a Warrant Officer, he should know that.

 

[chrisf]

It all goes into the collective public consciousness, even if they don't remember his name, there will be a vague recollection of it.

If the CF is not willing to consider public image, then I wish you the best of luck with the next 8 years of liberal government.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

10 minutes from now, nobody is going to remember this dude's name, let alone that the CAF charged him for being rude. The CAF community, however, will remember we let someone get away with something because he cried to CBC and pulled pin to avoid justice.

Maybe he's not guilty, but the way to prove that is in actual court, not the court of public opinion. As a Warrant Officer, he should know that.

What I'll remember is it took 3 yrs to bring a guy to trial for something he should have got extras for instead of worrying about bigger fish.

 

[PuckChaser]

What I'll remember is it took 3 yrs to bring a guy to trial for something he should have got extras for instead of worrying about bigger fish.

We have his recollection of the events, that's it. We'll get the whole story once the decision is rendered. I strongly doubt the A/JAG is going to refer to GCM for something so minor. We also have no idea why there was a delay, perhaps he requested it? There's so much speculation to just say "the system is screwing this guy". Everyone's also glossing over the fact that he's a Warrant Officer, and can/should be held to a higher standard.

Extras is real nice to say, but there's so many situations that they wouldn't be practical/possible.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

We have his recollection of the events, that's it. We'll get the whole story once the decision is rendered. I strongly doubt the A/JAG is going to refer to GCM for something so minor. We also have no idea why there was a delay, perhaps he requested it? There's so much speculation to just say "the system is screwing this guy". Everyone's also glossing over the fact that he's a Warrant Officer, and can/should be held to a higher standard.

Extras is real nice to say, but there's so many situations that they wouldn't be practical/possible.

Agreed. I should have said given what's reported.

 

[George Wallace]

Not if you don't go back to BC.

I don't know who is giving you legal advice, but you should fire them.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I was at a unit when a member on his way out (2 weeks left I think), sent a very insubordinate email to the CO and BCC'd his DivO.  His release was delayed 6 months until the situation was dealt with.  Long story short, keep your crabbing to yourself until you are fully out of uniform.

Extra 6 months pay and pension...