CRCN Message on the Steward Occupation Town Hall (Steward trade elimination)

[Remius]

I would imagine they would still be pay protected with this sort of thing?

 

[dapaterson]

Yes, COT is pay protected, VOT is not.

 

[mariomike]

Steward looks like a pretty good job.

Yes, I know, looks can be deceiving to a land-lubber.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So, all those higher ranking stewards are going to get force reeducated and busted down to two stripers in their new occupations? Can't see that causing any sort of angst in an organization already plagued with retention issues. Full disclosure, I have no idea how the steward trade works and how high their ranks go.

That's a CAF policy.

Also you can't put POs and CPO2s in their rank into another trade.

We did the same thing to the PERIs.

 

[brihard]

Pure curiosity, are there any trades that jump out as obvious paths of least resistance for stewards at the PO2 rank or above? Anyone below that rank, this mostly seems like a shrug and a new trade, but I could see SNCOs having a bit of a struggle having to drop back to killick in something new. Granted they'll still have whatever courses and quals they needed on the generic NCO side- I have no clue what that looks like outside of PLQ/ILQ/ALQ. Is there a reasonable swift path to get managers back into managing but in a different trade?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pure curiosity, are there any trades that jump out as obvious paths of least resistance for stewards at the PO2 rank or above? Anyone below that rank, this mostly seems like a shrug and a new trade, but I could see SNCOs having a bit of a struggle having to drop back to killick in something new. Granted they'll still have whatever courses and quals they needed on the generic NCO side- I have no clue what that looks like outside of PLQ/ILQ/ALQ. Is there a reasonable swift path to get managers back into managing but in a different trade?

Probably cook is the closest comparison. Everything else would be way above their heads to come in as POs and above without the experience to back them up.

Hey remember, they will be killicks getting paid well above the killick level, and have all the qualifications of their previous rank.

 

[Blackadder1916]

We did the same thing to the PERIs.

At least with the PERIs all members started in another trade before remuster to that branch, but I don't know of any that remustered back to their old trade (or would have wanted to). However, the initial news that the branch would be eliminated was at the same time as the first round of FRP. A lot of PEROs/PERIs took advantage of that option.

1995 - PERISCOPE MAGAZINE

Compliments of Harry Guittard.

www.thenewperiscope.com

 

[mariomike]

Hey remember, they will be killicks getting paid well above the killick level, and have all the qualifications of their previous rank.

A not so hypothetical question, because the situation sounds pretty familiar to me.

If the COT member decides they don't mind being a killick for life, will they continue "getting paid well above the killick level' ?

Ie: Would the pre-COT pay rate of their previous rank be maintained, with all wage increases negotiated, for the rest of their career?

 

[Halifax Tar]

A not so hypothetical question, because the situation sounds pretty familiar to me.

If the COT member decides they don't mind being a killick for life, will they continue "getting paid well above the killick level' ?

Ie: Would the pre-COT pay rate of their previous rank be maintained, with all wage increases negotiated, for the rest of their career?

Yup. They keep their pay rate until they surpass from being subsequently promoted or retire.

So if your a PO1 who turns back into an S1, you keep the PO1 pay until you either retire or get promoted beyond that pay level.

 

[Halifax Tar]

At least with the PERIs all members started in another trade before remuster to that branch, but I don't know of any that remustered back to their old trade (or would have wanted to). However, the initial news that the branch would be eliminated was at the same time as the first round of FRP. A lot of PEROs/PERIs took advantage of that option.

View attachment 77219

1995 - PERISCOPE MAGAZINE

Compliments of Harry Guittard.

www.thenewperiscope.com

I suspect we'll see more releases than elsewise the higher the rank.

 

[OceanBonfire]

Update on the Retirement of the Steward Occupation from D Nav Log:

The retirement of the Steward Occupation will take place on 31 March 2026. As part of that retirement, the RCN has been working to transition Steward responsibilities and billeted positions to other occupations. As there have been many questions received regarding these changes, this email is intended to provide information on the work completed to date and the way ahead.

Effective 1 Apr 24, of the 8 billeted Steward positions onboard FFHs, 5 of those positions were transferred to Logistics Occupations as follows:

• 1 x Non-Public Property Accounting Manager (NPPAM) – filled by a SLt/Lt(N) LOG-SEA
• 1 x Non-Public Property Administrative Assistant (NPPAA)- filled by MS HRA
• 1 x Non-Public Property Warehouse Manager (NPPWM)- filled by MS MMT
• 2 x Cooks- filled by S1-S3 Cook

Interim Plan: With the removal of all Steward and their positions onboard FFHs, Fleet F4s Logs, working with the Steward Occupation Management Transition Team (OMTT) are executing the migration of accounting and bookkeeping functions ashore. CANFLTPAC has established an NPP management cell ashore, and CANFLTLANT is working towards that objective. Currently, experienced PO1 and PO2 Stewards are enabling the ships through conducting Steward tasks and supervising a small team of NLOs in each Fleet. F4 Logs have also developed Exchange Management training packages to enable ships to manage the interim requirements related to ships exchange management. The pilot program includes MMTs and NLOs for initial employment.

Long-term Plan: Canadian Forces Morale and Welfare Services (CFMWS) have signed a Service Level Agreement (SLA) to provide NPP services and support to the RCN. As the details and elements of the SLA have been developed and agreed upon by mutual contractual consent between CFMWS and the RCN, a Master Implementation Plan (MIP) has been created to facilitate the transition of NPF bookkeeping from ships to shore (CFMWS). To enable CFMWS, the RCN will develop the duties and responsibilities of the above listed (5) positions to assist with the day-to-day management of that SLA (among other Steward duties). These positions will still report divisionally to their respective occupational lines (ie. HRA to HRA, MMT to MMT), but will be responsive to the NPPAM to assist with NPP related duties.

The NPPAM will coordinate all NPF transactions onboard ships, as well as inventory requirements. The NPPAM will work closely with CFMWS to provide the highest level of service for sailors. It should be noted that the responsibilities of the Non-Public Property Accounting Officer (NPPAO) remain vested with the Ship’s Logistics Officer (HOD).

CFMWS is working to develop training to assist with these management duties. It is expected that CFMWS will provide two training components:

• NPPAM- this training will include all components of the updated version of the Naval Non-Public Funds Manual (Governance, Positional Responsibilities, Delegation management, Contracting, internal Controls, Financial Statements, Exchange management, Ship’s Fund, CO’s Fund, Lines of Credit, CFCF Loans, Grants, Operational Support and Amenities Grant (OPAS), Rest & Relaxation Funds, Control Records, Mess Management, Retail Pricing, Credit Card Control, PoS System Management, Inventory Control and Stock Levels, Sales at Cost, Customs Acquisition Vouchers, Employee Management, Salaries & Wages, Stocktaking Boards, Levies, Charities, Constitutions, Mess Meetings, Mess Expenditures, Bar operations, Write-offs, Consolidated Insurance Program, Security, Exchange capital, Loans, Alcohol & Tobacco Sales, Merchandise Purchases & Sales, Advances, Foreign Currency, Imprest (Messes & Bar) Management, Breakage & Spoilage, Inventory Control, Merchandise Storage, Stocktaking, Distribution Profit/Losses, Employee Management, Levies, NPP Functions).

• Exchange Management- this training will focus on Positional Responsibilities, Delegation management, Contracting, Exchange management, Control Records, Credit Card Control, PoS System Management, Imprest Management (Messes and Canteen), Internal Controls, Inventory Control and Stock Levels, Employee Management, Stocktaking Boards, Merchandise Purchases & Sales.

As this training plan is finalized by CFMWS, the RCN acknowledges there will be some training gaps between CFMWS provided training and what Stewards used to do. The DNL team will lead the development of a WG (with RCN Compt, F4 Log Teams, Coastal Training Authorities, OMTT) is order to conduct an assessment and determine that delta, so that a training package may be created in order to fill that gap. This will include things such as hospitality functions, paying off ships, artifact management, deployment preparations & considerations, document management, authority management, etc. It is expected these duties will be split between the NPPAM, NPPAA, and NPPWM. The TORs of these positions have been drafted, but will need to be finalized in the coming months.

With specific focus on NLO training and development: The Non-Public Property Accounting Manager is SLt/Lt(N) OFP (pre-ALGA) position. It is important to understand that it is NOT a training billet, but a billeted position onboard an FFH.

As the Naval Logistics Officer Shipboard training (otherwise known as ALGA) is modernized, the development of the NPPAM training will need to keep pace with those changes. The ALGA Qualification Standard (QS) Writing Board sat in the spring and has recommended that CFMWS and other NPP training for the NPPAM is a pre-requisite for all candidates who will undertake the ALGA training program. Due to limited platform availability, it is not guaranteed that all junior NLOs will have the opportunity to be employed as NPPAMs. NPPAM employment should not have a direct correlation to ALGA. There is significant discussion ongoing to analyze this process to ensure we can maximize onboard opportunities (ie. to complete OOD), without negatively impacting those that are not employed as NPPAM. The management and rotation of NPPAM positions should align with the normal posting season, and may not necessarily align with the ALGA training cycles. We will continue to watch and amend as required based on feedback as we begin to employ NPPAMs in the Fleet.

We understand that there is much work to do and still many under answered questions, however we felt it was important to provide an update of what we know at this stage. We appreciate your assistance and patience as we navigate these challenges and help develop the new system that will refine NPP management for the RCN.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Update on the Retirement of the Steward Occupation from D Nav Log:

We're sailing with this composition right now. It's working out. But the LogO is over ranked. It should be a PO2/1 MMT.

Once the training is fully established it will help too, but overall it is working out.

 

[Navy_Pete]

We're sailing with this composition right now. It's working out. But the LogO is over ranked. It should be a PO2/1 MMT.

Once the training is fully established it will help too, but overall it is working out.

Is that a secondary duty for the AHOD or a separate position? It was one of those jobs that could sometimes be busy, but from an outsider didn't seem like there was enough consistent work for a primary position, so was pretty normal they were doing a lot of other things. I suspect a PO2/MS MMT is probably a lot more useful for the log department than another officer.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Is that a secondary duty for the AHOD or a separate position? It was one of those jobs that could sometimes be busy, but from an outsider didn't seem like there was enough consistent work for a primary position, so was pretty normal they were doing a lot of other things. I suspect a PO2/MS MMT is probably a lot more useful for the log department than another officer.

Its a full time job, same with the MS Warehouse manager. The plan is only to have MMTs and LogO in those positions for deployers though. As if you arent sailing a lot the NPF isnt that busy. If trades ever get back to a healthy position then they will be filled all the time. Or at least that's the intent.

Our LT(N) LogO is run off her feet, but she has also been tagged as the Cmdre's aide. Without that added task she would have a full days work, now she has more than.

The PO MMT would be another, not from the existing one(s). I maintain the Officer is over ranked for the position.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Its a full time job, same with the MS Warehouse manager. The plan is only to have MMTs and LogO in those positions for deployers though. As if you arent sailing a lot the NPF isnt that busy. If trades ever get back to a healthy position then they will be filled all the time. Or at least that's the intent.

Our LT(N) LogO is run off her feet, but she has also been tagged as the Cmdre's aide. Without that added task she would have a full days work, now she has more than.

The PO MMT would be another, not from the existing one(s). I maintain the Officer is over ranked for the position.

Thanks, that makes sense. The Cmdre's aide is such an asspain. Agree the NPP job it is overranked, and in a lot of cases probably a skill set mismatch for some of the details and transactions, as I'm sure for a lot of that the Lt is likely going to have to ask a PO how to do things that they aren't actually trained or experienced in doing anyway.

My one big objection to the steward trade being killed is the alternate positions they identified were already trades in distress, where stewards were a green trade. The decision to get rid of HTs when they did the martech was largely emotionally driven, with senior people wanting to 'break up the stoker mafia', and has completely foxed us. This seems like a similar decision where someone doesn't like stewards, and whinged loud and hard enough to kill it without figuring out the implications. Adding more work to shorthanded trades with no plan to fill those new billets is really dumb, but peak RCN. The do nothing option would have meant all those roles were getting done by a healthy trade, and let us just focus on the existing and numerous shortages and training issues.

It would have been easier to officially cut some of their duties that were in practice largely cut anyway if that was the gripe. It was frankly weird to have someone want to clean your cabin so did it all myself, but that was kind of becoming the norm anyway because they were cutting how many billets they were allocated, so they had enough people to help with food prep and serving (which reduces demand on cook trade) and things like NPP etc.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If it was a "Green trade" then clearly you had enough people who liked doing it. Wonder how it's going to screw their Stats when a "Green trade" disappears and there is just more red ones left?

 

[Navy_Pete]

If it was a "Green trade" then clearly you had enough people who liked doing it. Wonder how it's going to screw their Stats when a "Green trade" disappears and there is just more red ones left?

I think it was a pretty small trade, with less than a 100 people total, but they seemed to be able to recruit, train and promote well enough for to keep up with the number of billets, which has also shrank as we got rid of the 280s. Ashore they were doing things like mess managers, which a lot of bases switched to a civilian position, but seemed like a good shore billet and a reasonable recruiting tool as it kind of showed the kind of normal jobs you could get from the training and experience in the trade.

It's not sexy, but someone has to help with food prep and serve on the steam lines on the bigger ships to keep up the throughput needed to feed a few hundred people in about an hour with limited space. I thought things like table service in the weirdroom was a bit of a pompous tradition, but again, easy enough to get rid of that and never heard anyone complain about going to the steam line window to grab a plate.

During DC they are part of the casualty clearing organization as advanced first aiders, which is similar to the trades that are replacing them in the billet. THere is still a signing bonus for cooks though and one of the ones with frequent shortage messages (when ships send out a signal that they are short specific trades and ranks for sailing), so repalcing them with people that don't actually exist doesn't really make sense.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thanks, that makes sense. The Cmdre's aide is such an asspain. Agree the NPP job it is overranked, and in a lot of cases probably a skill set mismatch for some of the details and transactions, as I'm sure for a lot of that the Lt is likely going to have to ask a PO how to do things that they aren't actually trained or experienced in doing anyway.

My one big objection to the steward trade being killed is the alternate positions they identified were already trades in distress, where stewards were a green trade. The decision to get rid of HTs when they did the martech was largely emotionally driven, with senior people wanting to 'break up the stoker mafia', and has completely foxed us. This seems like a similar decision where someone doesn't like stewards, and whinged loud and hard enough to kill it without figuring out the implications. Adding more work to shorthanded trades with no plan to fill those new billets is really dumb, but peak RCN. The do nothing option would have meant all those roles were getting done by a healthy trade, and let us just focus on the existing and numerous shortages and training issues.

It is ironic that the only green trade the RCN had they cut; the Stewards. But their function was no longer required. And any secondary duties they had were already being done by others or we're honestly just incorporated as last ditch attempts to keep the trade alive.

It would have been easier to officially cut some of their duties that were in practice largely cut anyway if that was the gripe. It was frankly weird to have someone want to clean your cabin so did it all myself, but that was kind of becoming the norm anyway because they were cutting how many billets they were allocated, so they had enough people to help with food prep and serving (which reduces demand on cook trade) and things like NPP etc.

The galley received 2 extra cooks, and that has alleviated any strain.

I think it was a pretty small trade, with less than a 100 people total, but they seemed to be able to recruit, train and promote well enough for to keep up with the number of billets, which has also shrank as we got rid of the 280s. Ashore they were doing things like mess managers, which a lot of bases switched to a civilian position, but seemed like a good shore billet and a reasonable recruiting tool as it kind of showed the kind of normal jobs you could get from the training and experience in the trade.

It was more than 100, but less than 500. They were able to keep their numbers high because the entrance standards for the trade was was.... more accepting than others ? They tended to get a lot of people who didn't qualify for their initially desired occupation, but still wanted to be in the Navy.

There is a bit of irony in it, because once a Steward got to MS and up it became about running a small business (Canteen), Bar (Messes) or Hotel (Accommodations). All of these tasks required excellent problem solving and mathematical skills.

It's not sexy, but someone has to help with food prep and serve on the steam lines on the bigger ships to keep up the throughput needed to feed a few hundred people in about an hour with limited space. I thought things like table service in the weirdroom was a bit of a pompous tradition, but again, easy enough to get rid of that and never heard anyone complain about going to the steam line window to grab a plate.

I have heard that other ships had a real struggle with this as some of our commissioned brethren we defiant in not wanting to give up the previous level of service. Luckily, CHA has not experienced that as our wardroom and command team have been excellent and innovative in navigating this transition.

During DC they are part of the casualty clearing organization as advanced first aiders, which is similar to the trades that are replacing them in the billet. THere is still a signing bonus for cooks though and one of the ones with frequent shortage messages (when ships send out a signal that they are short specific trades and ranks for sailing), so repalcing them with people that don't actually exist doesn't really make sense.

Again, casualty clearing isn't an argument either. As you say its done by other folks too. The hardest part as been dealing with the medical side who were simply upset that they didn't have the same numbers. As I expressed, they need to accept reality and improvise, adapt and overcome.

 

[Underway]

I have heard that other ships had a real struggle with this as some of our commissioned brethren we defiant in not wanting to give up the previous level of service. Luckily, CHA has not experienced that as our wardroom and command team have been excellent and innovative in navigating this transition.

There are only two challenges that don't relate to entitlement.

First there isn't enough seating for everyone to eat, so when you have service in the wardroom you could look and see if there was a space and if there wasn't you would come back later (and get some more work done). Now if you go to the steam line you will show up in the wardroom with a full plate and nowhere to eat it. Also there was the "save a meal for onwatch" challenge.

The other challenge of course is going up ladders with your food while underway, which the other messes do not have to worry about. Few spills.

Ottawa was the first ship sailing without stewards (they kept the CO's steward and one master for a short time) and we just had SLt's do the table service with one of the cooks in the servery. Engineers were breakfast, NWO's did the other two meals. Barring that it was steam line.

It's a pretty straight forward transition, and none of the officers cared that much.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There are only two challenges that don't relate to entitlement.

First there isn't enough seating for everyone to eat, so when you have service in the wardroom you could look and see if there was a space and if there wasn't you would come back later (and get some more work done). Now if you go to the steam line you will show up in the wardroom with a full plate and nowhere to eat it. Also there was the "save a meal for onwatch" challenge.

No mess has enough seating for everyone to eat at once. Lots of folks in the JRs and C&POs eat on the couches. Or we wait for the rush to die down. I usually eat at about minute 15 or 20.

The other challenge of course is going up ladders with your food while underway, which the other messes do not have to worry about. Few spills.

Ottawa was the first ship sailing without stewards (they kept the CO's steward and one master for a short time) and we just had SLt's do the table service with one of the cooks in the servery. Engineers were breakfast, NWO's did the other two meals. Barring that it was steam line.

It's a pretty straight forward transition, and none of the officers cared that much.

We have maintained food service out of the wardroom servery by having a cook and scullery go up for meal times. Midnight meal and stokers breakfast are done from the main steam line only.