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CRCN Message on the Steward Occupation Town Hall (Steward trade elimination)

Navy_Pete said:
@Halifax Tar, not discounting your experience, but even 4 people per ship, with 8-10 CPFs up and running is 32-40 people that don't actually exist in other trades. I think the full remar is still 7 or 8, so really up to 60-70 positions in the fleet. That's the equivalent of an entire AOPs crew.

So maybe not a big deal looking at a single ship, but at a fleet level this is a non-trivial demand on other trades that are already unable to fill billets.

The RCN wants to keep all the MCDVs, sail the Oriole and have multiple CPFs at HR, all while somehow getting new ships with additional billets. We just don't have the people, and all the NAVGENs in the world won't magically create trained sailors. We're running the ships dangerously short handed as it is, and the FRE fire on any non-HR ship would have likely gone far worse (possibly aground).

In that context the RCN makes Pollyanna look like a pessimist when it comes to HR solutions, and so far our COAs on the existing HR shortages are hope nothing happens, and it will all work itself out. Driving around 30 year old warships that don't meet commercial safety standards with minimum crews is just rolling the dice at this point, and the cumulative impacts of the thousands of technical defects, HR shortages, training deficiences, missing equipment etc is a bit terrifying if you look at it together (so we just don't do that).
Click to expand...

I truly think you're over appreciating the operational value and impact of the STW occupation. Yes, they provided a service, and yes we can do that job better with another organizational structure. That's tough news for some I get it, but my hands and my eyes tell me its true.

If it was up to me; and I thought my trade was healthy enough, I would take all the S1 to S3 STW billets and give them to Supply. Then I would give MSE, CSE and Deck a dedicated full time storesman in their dept thus freeing up a tradesperson to get back to their job.

How do you do go from no stewards is bad to :

In that context the RCN makes Pollyanna look like a pessimist when it comes to HR solutions, and so far our COAs on the existing HR shortages are hope nothing happens, and it will all work itself out. Driving around 30 year old warships that don't meet commercial safety standards with minimum crews is just rolling the dice at this point, and the cumulative impacts of the thousands of technical defects, HR shortages, training deficiences, missing equipment etc is a bit terrifying if you look at it together (so we just don't do that).
Click to expand...

You and I hoe the same row when it comes to the material state and ops skeds of the fleet. The elimination of the STW trade has little no impact on that. I have yet to see any documentation that says all former STW billets will be force filled by MSE or what ever dept. As I have said, I see the cooks getting 1 more position and the same with supply. With the NPF accounting being picked up by FSA without augmentation. The rest can be made ATR positions.

I think you're carrying this torch a little too high my friend. But time will tell.

I imagine I will be posted to Ottawa when this comes to an end, how about we go have a beer and see how it all washed up ?
 
Halifax Tar said:
I truly think you're over appreciating the operational value and impact of the STW occupation. Yes, they provided a service, and yes we can do that job better with another organizational structure. That's tough news for some I get it, but my hands and my eyes tell me its true.

If it was up to me; and I thought my trade was healthy enough, I would take all the S1 to S3 STW billets and give them to Supply. Then I would give MSE, CSE and Deck a dedicated full time storesman in their dept thus freeing up a tradesperson to get back to their job.

How do you do go from no stewards is bad to :



You and I hoe the same row when it comes to the material state and ops skeds of the fleet. The elimination of the STW trade has little no impact on that. I have yet to see any documentation that says all former STW billets will be force filled by MSE or what ever dept. As I have said, I see the cooks getting 1 more position and the same with supply. With the NPF accounting being picked up by FSA without augmentation. The rest can be made ATR positions.

I think you're carrying this torch a little too high my friend. But time will tell.

I imagine I will be posted to Ottawa when this comes to an end, how about we go have a beer and see how it all washed up ?
Click to expand...
Your probably right about me getting too worked up about just the stewards in particular, but it's the overall big picture of the several thousand issues the CPFs are running around with, plus HR, plus a lack of credible plan to stop things from getting worse that I guess I find concerning.

If there were other trades with capacity, replacing the stewards would be pretty straightforward, but also takes up a lot of bandwidth on the occ manager/training side.

I don't see trades with capacity, and the bandwidth for training really should be getting put towards the known major gaps in training. Things like bunker gear and extinguishers aren't getting properly maintained because we lost fire fighters and canned HTs without properly figuring out what they actually did, and training people to do it.

It just seems like a completely unecessary change to add to the pile, when we already have more issues to sort out, but will be a distraction stopping us from doing important things (like Wifi related ECs getting pushed ahead of safety ones).
 
Navy_Pete said:
Your probably right about me getting too worked up about just the stewards in particular, but it's the overall big picture of the several thousand issues the CPFs are running around with, plus HR, plus a lack of credible plan to stop things from getting worse that I guess I find concerning.

If there were other trades with capacity, replacing the stewards would be pretty straightforward, but also takes up a lot of bandwidth on the occ manager/training side.

I don't see trades with capacity, and the bandwidth for training really should be getting put towards the known major gaps in training. Things like bunker gear and extinguishers aren't getting properly maintained because we lost fire fighters and canned HTs without properly figuring out what they actually did, and training people to do it.

It just seems like a completely unecessary change to add to the pile, when we already have more issues to sort out, but will be a distraction stopping us from doing important things (like Wifi related ECs getting pushed ahead of safety ones).
Click to expand...

We are onside. The HT trade should have remained outside the MARTECH boondoggle. Or the whole boondoggle should have been aborted before birth. The fleet's engineering and material issues are immense. There also seems to have been much resistance to the MARTECH amalgamation and it doesn't seemed to have subsided. Where the CSE amalgamation seems, from outside, to have worked and most seem to be happy, I stand to be corrected.

I can recognize that adding the dissolution of the STW trade to an already strained environment might look like another mistake, I just don't see it as having a major impact, and I think its a step in the right direction.
 
Halifax Tar said:
We are onside. The HT trade should have remained outside the MARTECH boondoggle. Or the whole boondoggle should have been aborted before birth. The fleet's engineering and material issues are immense. There also seems to have been much resistance to the MARTECH amalgamation and it doesn't seemed to have subsided. Where the CSE amalgamation seems, from outside, to have worked and most seem to be happy, I stand to be corrected.

I can recognize that adding the dissolution of the STW trade to an already strained environment might look like another mistake, I just don't see it as having a major impact, and I think its a step in the right direction.
Click to expand...
I think for the MARTECHs people didn't really appreciate how tribal the different trades were before amalgamation and how completely different the type of work, schedules etc was between the trades. Some of that dates back to the steamer days.

For the HTs they weren't in watchkeeping positions, and ETs stopped being watchkeepers after becoming techs, so that was a big adjustment. The HTs also did the particular shitty jobs on the blackwater and other hotel systems, but seemed to take it as a necessary evil to do the fun things they joined for like RAT, welding etc.

I think the CSEs were generally already on watches, with the job scope being closer so seems to be less of an issue.

I think if we had kept HTs as a specialization (which was an option that was rejected) we wouldn't be having the problems we are now. The actual transition to 1 in 2 was fine, but does mean you need to be closer to remar; it was a lot easier to manage shortages before hand on the ET/HT side when they were day workers. From what I can tell talking to people that are quitting, it's because they joined to do one thing but aren't really doing that any more, and picked up a lot of new work they aren't interested in. Plus being massively shorthanded but sailing anyway, in ships missing basic capabilities it all kinds of adds up.

I can see other trades being brought into do steward jobs having the same issue with doing things they didn't join to do, and also getting tagged with the same crap stewards had thrown their way. On the flipside acting as a CO's personal cook sounds like a great CV item for anyone looking to get out and work as an executive chef.
 
Navy_Pete said:
I think for the MARTECHs people didn't really appreciate how tribal the different trades were before amalgamation and how completely different the type of work, schedules etc was between the trades. Some of that dates back to the steamer days.

I think the toppling of some real empires, as you allude too, as very much a part of this.

For the HTs they weren't in watchkeeping positions, and ETs stopped being watchkeepers after becoming techs, so that was a big adjustment. The HTs also did the particular shitty jobs on the blackwater and other hotel systems, but seemed to take it as a necessary evil to do the fun things they joined for like RAT, welding etc.

Agreed. HT was a fantastic trade.

I think the CSEs were generally already on watches, with the job scope being closer so seems to be less of an issue.

Ya CSE seems to have gone much smoother.

I think if we had kept HTs as a specialization (which was an option that was rejected) we wouldn't be having the problems we are now. The actual transition to 1 in 2 was fine, but does mean you need to be closer to remar; it was a lot easier to manage shortages before hand on the ET/HT side when they were day workers. From what I can tell talking to people that are quitting, it's because they joined to do one thing but aren't really doing that any more, and picked up a lot of new work they aren't interested in. Plus being massively shorthanded but sailing anyway, in ships missing basic capabilities it all kinds of adds up.

Agreed.

I can see other trades being brought into do steward jobs having the same issue with doing things they didn't join to do, and also getting tagged with the same crap stewards had thrown their way. On the flipside acting as a CO's personal cook sounds like a great CV item for anyone looking to get out and work as an executive chef.

I don't understand this issue. Everyone has to do things that aren't in their recruitment job description. People like to bitch, particularly RCN folks. Jobs like scullery are important for the health and habitability of the ship. Menial, sure. But stop washing plates and cutlery and watch how fast illness grows. The concept of everyone is a cog in the wheel is very much foreign to the RCN at times, from my observations. The amount of times I heard some PO1 or CPO2 exclaim the ship cant with out them is nauseating. STFU and do your job, or piss off and give someone else the shot you're not that important.

Try being Logistics. We had to sit the LS PER board twice , and I wasn't allowed into the board to represent my LS on the second go around*, on my last FRE trip because Ops threw a fit that a Sup Tech was going to come out number 1 while we were on an operation. To give credit where its due, MSE and CSE backed up Log hard both times and that member still came out number 1.

*Apparently I was too aggressive/intimidating and dominant.
Click to expand...
 
Yeah, I don't get it either, it's pretty hard to do operations if you don't have parts, fuel, propulsion etc, so everyone has to do their part. Dish washing isnt' glamourous but absolutely necessary, but if you are there to learn how to be an electrician and that's what you do for 6 months it's a big disatisfier (and why we used it as a rotating gig for a few trainees). Fighting the supremacy of ops for deployed PERs is almost a collective responsibility for the Log/MSED/CSEDs though!

It's a bit like people that are assholes to serving staff in restaurants etc, cashiers etc someone has to do it. I think everyone should do a service job early on in life for some perspective.
 
How many Stewarts would be on the average ship? Is this change going to affect dozens or hundreds of people?
 
Which is pretty funny, given how many people get wound up about the capitalization use of italics for ship names, use of weird short forms (fo'csle, bos'n, etc), or other weird bits of arcana.
 
Furniture said:
Never let necessity, or common sense get in the way of trivial displays of power.
Click to expand...

I have had my section broke in two watches to facilitate pre deployment leave and going sideways trying to get the ship stored and action all the engineering requirements only be told to hold in place... The XO needs purple pens and enough for the next 6 months...

I love my Navy deeply, very very deeply. But its in need of some hard lessons and tough love.
 
SUBJ:SPECIAL COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFER PROGRAM FOR STWD MOSID
REFS: A. CANFORGEN 119/22 RCN 028/22 252000Z JUL 22
B. CFAO 11-12, OCCUPATION TRANSFER OF NON-COMMISSIONED MEMBERS -
REGULAR FORCE
C. PERSONNEL SELECTION DIRECTIVE 302, OCCUPATION TRANSFER (RESTRICTED
ACCESS)
D. IN-SERVICE SELECTION INTRANET WEBPAGE, COMPULSORY OCCUPATION
TRANSFER
INTRANET/RECRUITMENT-CAREERS/IN-SERVICE-SELE
CTION/COMPULSORY-OCCUPATION-TRANSFER.PAGE
E. COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS INSTRUCTIONS CHAP 204
F. MOSID ENTRY STANDARDS
G. CANADIAN ARMED FORCES MEDICAL STANDARDS
H. DAOD 5019-4, REMEDIAL-MEASURES
I. PSD 203 RETEST POLICY
J. CF MIL PERS INSTR 05/05, TERMS OF SERVICE
K. DAOD 5002-7, NON COMMISSIONED MEMBER SUBSIDIZED TRAINING AND
EDUCATION PLAN REGULAR FORCE
L. CAF-ACE PORTAL HTTPS://CAFACE-RFACACE.FORCES.GC.CA/EN/INDEX
M. NAVGEN 008/23 RCN 010/23 091600Z MAR 23

1. REF A ADVISED THAT THE STWD OCCUPATION WAS BEING RETIRED IN A
PHASED APPROACH OVER THE NEXT THREE YEARS (ENDING 31 MARCH 2026). THE
RCN IS COMMITTED TO THE SUCCESSFUL TRANSITION OF ALL CURRENTLY
SERVING STWDS AND SUPPORTS CONTINUED SERVICE WIHTIN THE RCN/CAF. THE
SPECIAL COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFER (S-COT) PROGRAM IS FOR MBRS OF
THE STWD OCCUPATION THAT ELECT TO REMAIN IN THE CAF AND ARE ELIGIBLE
AND SUITABLE TO CONTINUE TO SERVE IN ANOTHER OCCUPATION. MBRS SHOULD
READ THIS CANFORGEN IN CONJUNCTION WITH REF M

2. THE PHASED APPROACH WILL BE MANAGED BY THE RCN TRANSITION TEAM,
LEAD BY LCDR PIERRE AUGER. DMCPG 5 SHALL COORDINATE THE PROCESSING OF
FILES WITH LCDR AUGER TO ENSURE THAT MBRS ARE IN THE APPROPRIATE
PHASE FOR TRANSFER OUT OF THE STWD OCCUPATION. ADDITIONALLY,
PROCESSING PSOS MAY REACH OUT FOR THAT INFORMATON TO SUPPORT
COUNSELLING

3. THE FOCUS WILL BE TO TRANSFER MBRS OF THE STWD OCCUPATION TO ANY
NCM OCCUPATIONS FOR WHICH AN ENTRY PLAN EXISTS. IN CASES WHERE MBRS
MEET THE ELIGIBILTY REQUIREMENTS COMMISSIONING PLANS MAY BE
CONSIDERED (E.G., SCP, CEOTP)

4. REF B, REF C, AND REF D PROVIDE POLICY GUIDANCE ON TRANSFERRING
FROM ONE MILITARY OCCUPATION TO ANOTHER. OF PARTICULAR IMPORTANCE, IT
SPECIFIES THAT:
A. FOR COMPULSORY OCCUPATION TRANSFERS, THE MBR WILL CONTINUE TO
RECEIVE THE RATE OF PAY APPLICABLE IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO THE DATE ON
WHICH THE OT OCCURRED
B. RANK AND PAY IMPLICATIONS WILL BE FOLLOWED IAW REFS B AND E. IF
TRANSFERRING TO AN RCN MANAGED OCCUPATION, RANK UPON TRANSFER WILL BE
DETERMINED VIA PLAR PROCESS WHICH WILL HOLISTICALLY ASSESS EXPERIENCE
IN THE RCN ALONG WITH OCCUPATION-SPECIFIC QUALIFICATIONS

5. GENERAL ELIGIBILITY. ALL MBRS MUST:
A. MEET THE TARGET MOSID ENTRY STANDARDS AS PER REF F
B. HOLD A VALID MEDICAL CATEGORY AND MEET MINIMUM MEDICAL STANDARDS
SPECIFIED AT REF E (ANNEX E) FOR THE TARGET OCCUPATION(S). AS
AMPLIFIED AT REF G, MEMBERS WHO HAVE BEEN ASSIGNED A TEMPORARY
MEDICAL CATEGORY (TCAT) ARE NOT ELIGIBLE, UNLESS THE TCAT IS DUE TO
PREGNANCY
C. HOLD A VALID FORCE TEST
D. MBRS ON REMEDIAL MEASURES WILL BE ADDRESSED ON A CASE BY CASE
BASIS (REF H)

6. WAIVERS AND PLARS. THE PSO WILL SUBMIT WAIVER REQUESTS, AS
REQUIRED, THROUGH DPGR ON A CASE BY CASE BASIS FOR RELEVANT
COMPENSATING FACTORS. MBRS WILL BE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT PLARS AS
REQUIRED, WITH ASSISTANCE FROM DNP 6-2 OR DNP 6-3 IF REQUIRED

7. SELECTION AND OCCUPATION TRANSFER INSTRUCTIONS. FILES WILL BE
EVALUATED AND DMCPG 5 WILL MAKE OFFERS VIA EMAIL TO BOTH THE MEMBER
AND THE UNIT
A. TRANSFER INSTRUCTIONS WILL ONLY BE ISSUED ONCE ALL CONDITIONS OF
THE OFFER HAVE BEEN MET
B. MBRS WILL REMAIN IN THEIR CURRENT DEU UNLESS REASSIGNED BY DGMC,
OR IF DICTATED BY THE NEW OCCUPATION
C. UNITS/TRG ESTABLISHMENTS ARE NOT AUTHORIZED TO COURSE LOAD ANY
MEMBER UNTIL A TRANSFER/POSTING INSTRUCTION HAS BEEN FORMALLY ISSUED
BY DMCPG 5

8. TERMS OF SERVICE (TOS, REF J). OFFERS WILL SPECIFY IF NEW TOS ARE
REQUIRED. NEW TOS MUST ONLY BE ACTIONED ONCE THE MEMBER FORMALLY
ACCEPTS AN OFFER. REFUSAL OF THE NEW TOS WILL CANCEL THE OFFER.
MEMBERS ARE ENCOURAGED TO DISCUSS THE IMPLICATIONS OF SIGNING THOSE
NEW TOS WITH AN APPROPRIATE CONTACT PERSON AT THEIR UNIT

9. MBRS OF THE STWD OCCUPATION MAY APPLY FOR THE NON-COMMISSIONED
MEMBER SUBSIDIZED TRAINING AND EDUCATION PLAN (NCM STEP) FOR REGULAR
FORCE MBRS (REF K):
A. MBRS MUST APPLY TO AUTHORIZED ACADEMIC INSTITUTIONS AND PROGRAMS
LISTED AT REF L. APPLICANTS ARE ENCOURAGED TO APPLY TO COLLEGES
WITHIN THEIR CURRENT GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION WHERE POSSIBLE
B. MBRS MUST LIST THEIR ACADEMIC CHOICES IN ORDER OF PREFERENCE ON
THE DND 4495
C. APPLICATION COSTS WILL ONLY BE REIMBURSED TO SELECTED CANDIDATES,
AND SOLELY FOR THOSE COSTS INCURRED AT THE ACADEMIC INSTITUTION THE
MEMBER WILL BE ATTENDING
D. FINAL DECISION ON THE ACADEMIC INSTITUTION WILL BE MADE BY DMCPG 5
BASED ON THE OVERALL COST, INCLUDING ANY REQUIREMENT FOR A COST MOVE
AND THE TIME REQUIRED TO COMPLETE THE ACADEMIC PROGRAM
E. NO POSTING INSTRUCTION WILL BE ISSUED WITHOUT UNCONDITIONAL
ACCEPTANCE TO AN ACCEPTABLE ACADEMIC PROGRAM (CONFIRMATION REQUIRED
AT OFFER STAGE ONLY)
F. MEMBERS MUST BE PREPARED TO START FULL TIME SUBSIDIZED EDUCATION
IN THEIR APPLICABLE WINDOW FOR TRANSFER, AND NLT 31 MARCH 2026

10. UNITS/STWDS WILL CONTACT THEIR LOCAL PSO OFFICE FOR ALL S-COT
INQUIRIES

END OF ENGLISH TEXTE/TEXTE FRANCAIS SUITE
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

As I suspected. No special roll over into trades outside of RCN management, and even then it will be a case by case, PLAR basis.
 
Last edited:
So, all those higher ranking stewards are going to get force reeducated and busted down to two stripers in their new occupations? Can't see that causing any sort of angst in an organization already plagued with retention issues. Full disclosure, I have no idea how the steward trade works and how high their ranks go.
 
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