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Crossfit & the CF

nuttman said:
Another piece of information just came my way ... I hear that the CF (apparently a Colonel) has just signed an agreement with Crossfit (probably Greg Glassman, he's the main dude in Santa Cruz) to have Crossfit as their main PT program. :)  Does anyone know any more about this?

Sounds like an unsubstansiated rumour.  Where does this Colonel work? And for Whom?  Those  are my two big questions.  More info (like your source) would be appreciated.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Sounds like an unsubstansiated rumour.  Where does this Colonel work? And for Whom?  Those  are my two big questions.  More info (like your source) would be appreciated.

Its a bit more substantial than a rumor.  I heard it from someone i'd consider a reliable source that is close to the main Crossfit organization.  Unfortunatly, thats all the info I know now.  But hey, don't take my word for it, I'm sure if it is true it'll begin filtering through the ranks soon, and maybe there could have been a chance that its just stupid drunk talk (but personally i doubt it).
 
After spending all that money on the Army Fitness Manual it seems somewhat unlikely, but who knows... watch and shoot... maybe they'll have a CF Crossfit DIN site that posts the PT routine of the day??  ;D
 
nuttman said:
Its a bit more substantial than a rumor.  I heard it from someone i'd consider a reliable source that is close to the main Crossfit organization.  Unfortunatly, thats all the info I know now.  But hey, don't take my word for it, I'm sure if it is true it'll begin filtering through the ranks soon, and maybe there could have been a chance that its just stupid drunk talk (but personally i doubt it).

I must say that your opinion that this is "more substantial than a rumour" is just that; your opinion.  It would seem to most others, to be just a rumour and only a rumour.  You are a civilian (from your blank Profile) in Vancouver, and well removed from the people making decisions regarding CF policies in NDHQ.  Therefore, we must take your opinion with a grain of salt.
 
I was at the gym today in Gagetown and noticed that there was a Cross Fit seminar going on . After talking with one of the PSP staff I found out the following. Cross Fit sent people from the U.S. here for three days of seminars. I asked if anyone could attend but,unfortunately the answer was no. Apparently military personnel were selected from across Canada to attend. PSP staff were among them as well learning about it so as to incorporate it into their training regimes. I look forward to trying it sometime.
 
There hasn't been an agreement signed between the CF and Crossfit, but as mentioned above - there is stuff happening in Gagetown right now, and its even posted on the Crossfit website so maybe they were talking about some formal contract with CTC. They are 'training the trainers' and there are also PSP people evaluating Crossfit to see if it can be integrated into Army fitness, or used in some other way. I have a very good source on the inside, and she went into the course as a skeptic, and seems to be changing her mind  ;D



 
signalsguy said:
They are 'training the trainers' and there are also PSP people evaluating Crossfit to see if it can be integrated into Army fitness, or used in some other way.

I would say: "to see how it can be integrated into Army fitness".  :D

signalsguy said:
she went into the course as a skeptic, and seems to be changing her mind  ;D

+1 ;D
 
I dig Crossfit. especially it's value for strengthening the abdominal girdle, or core.
But, it's not the be-all and end-all for PT in the CF, IMO.

It doesn't address power training. That can only be obtained by lifting heavy (HEAVY) things up. For power, you need power lifting. I became aware of the need for power training when I got caught up in a small riot in Bosnia, and had to batter my way through to get some troops out of it. Without the strength to throw those skinny li'l Croats around, I wouldn't have succeeded.

It doesn't develop comradery. That can only be developed by playing team sports, or going through Obstacle courses as a unit. By practicing teamwork in sports, we better learn to implement teamwork on the battlefield. And, as we all know, teamwork is the basis of what we do. And what we are.

It doesn't develop the warrior mindset. That comes from Hand-to-Gland trainng, martial arts, and aggressive sports like hockey and rugby. Soldiers need to develop that aggresive mentality.

It doesn't do squat to prepare you for humpin' a ruck. Only way to do that is by humpin' a ruck.

So, I feel it is an important tool in the box, but no more than that. It's part of a complete PT program, but not a complete program in and of itself.

Although it beats the heck out of going for a run 4 days a week, with a ruck march to break the monotony.
 
Paracowboy,

I'm not too sure why you are saying that CF doesn't develop power training. I had already explained this before on another thread but just for the sake of everyone reading this thread, I would encourage people to read this:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/23364/post-301254.html#msg301254

I just got back from HLTA and am a little jet lagged but you'll see in that thread that I explained why and how CrossFit does build power.

I agree with you that it is not the end all and be all for military PT. I especially agree with you about cameraderie, teamwork and agression. For me, right now, I do PT on my own so it's ideal for me. Cheers!

MG
 
paracowboy said:
It doesn't address power training. That can only be obtained by lifting heavy (HEAVY) things up. For power, you need power lifting.

Umm, the majority of the WODs are some form of powerlifting. 
 
I do a lot of Crossfit workouts, and every one I've found builds mucular endurance, but not true power. For that, you need to lift very heavy weights, for only a couple of reps, and only a couple of sets. Putting a ridiculous amount of weight on a bar and squatting it, for instance. But it should be such an amount of weight that you can only perform the movement about 3 times.

Every Crossfit workout I've seen involves doing a movement 10, 12, 15 times, or more. That is not power training. Doing a movement 2 - 3 times with 90% of your max weight is power training.That's what I'm saying. Maybe I've just not seen those workouts?

That's why I feel every troop should cycle their training around, including pure cardio, pure power training, muscular strength/endurance training (Crossfit being ideal for this), and throwing sports and 'combative' sports in the mix for fun and the above training benefits. Rucksack marching must be done every week, at least once.
 
Army News was at the gym in Gagetown today filming the Cross Fit seminar. We will probably see the segment soon. It will be interesting to see what kind of info they will have about it being implemented into CF.
 
The "power" workouts are the ones that just say squat 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 or clean 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 something like that.  If you notice those particular workouts are never "for time", its all about how much weight you can do.  So if it takes you 5 minutes between sets, then it takes 5 minutes between sets.  While they are not "pure" power lifting workouts like you describe (2-3 reps in total), they are pretty darn close.  Remember the whole idea behind Crossfit is to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2. That said there is nothing to stop a person from adding to their workouts if they desire (I do all the time), you just have to make sure you are getting enough rest days.
 
Hatchet Man said:
Remember the whole idea behind Crossfit is to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2.
as is my goal, which is why I advocate doing more than just Crossfit.

I don't say it's useless. It is an excellent part of a soldier's complete workout regimen, but not the be-all and end-all. It doesn't address everything a soldier should be prepared to do, as I contended above.

So, in the spirit of Crossfit, as you state "to excel in many areas of human performance not just 1 or 2", I argue that soldiers should incorporate Crossfit into their exercise scheme, but not be totally reliant on it. It's just another weapon in the arsenal.

edited because I forgot the word "not". Kinda changes my meaning around. By the way, Al makes a good series of points below. Read his post.
 
I have been doing some Crossfit workouts as part of my exercise program for about 5 months now, and initally I was pretty impressed to hear that the CF was looking at implementing Crossfit into the "official" fitness program. Prior to starting with Crossfit, I had been following the AFM workouts (for about 3 months), and arguably, if you are following that program, it's not a huge leap to implement Crossfit.

This is where I see a problem: I can see people being "forced" into adopting Crossfit before they are ready for it. By this I mean that I have seen very few people (and/or units) following the AFM PT regimen as it is meant to be followed (i.e one of the various week-based programs). Proof of this: I have seen very few (as a relative percentage of the people that I see working out at the Gagetown fitness facility) people doing the plyometric exercises. I have had people outright stare at me when I was doing the hopping from foot to foot down the indoor track, as though I had just made up some funky exercises. It's in the AF Manual, people!!!! To me, it appears to be the same old, same old: run, play ball-hockey, ruckmarch, and move some weights around, without an apparent plan. And to top it all off, none of the basic fitness principles seem to be being applied for improvement (increase duration/intensity/weight/reps, variety, etc). It's as though many people don't read the manual (which, BTW, I think is excellent, even though I was skeptical when I found out who one of the pers involved in the writing of it was.... a blast from my past, so to speak), let alone follow it. Why? Because it involves planning and catering programs to individual needs. Yes, I said it!! INDIVIDUAL needs. Not the whole unit. The individual. And we all know that soldier's are mindless drones who can't be trusted to follow, let alone plan, their own exercise prescription (which I initially hated as a term, but it makes sense: it is a prescription, the same as a medication. Not everybody is given penicillin when one person has an infection. Not everyone should have to try to run the Boston Marathon, bench press a car, do 50 one-arm chin-ups, etc).

It's all pretty simple: do the 9 tests. Find out what you need to work on (achieving only level 1 or 2 in something, in other words), and focus on those specific areas, without neglecting those that you did well on. We have to stop practicing/focussing on our strengths (runners always running, gym rats only pumping iron, jocks only playing sports, etc) and focus on our areas for development (that's sounds vaguely familiar....). In other words, CROSS-train to achieve FITness. CROSSFIT. Wow, I should copyright that. Oh, yeah. Already done.

And then, once a soldier is ready, and needs a greater challenge (achieving level 3 or better across the board, IMO) move on to Crossfit if they are inclined. People seem to forget (or ignore) that Crossfit is targeted at people who are looking for an "elite" level of fitness (but it isn't limited to elite athletes). Arguably soldiers should be elite (or at the least, strive for that) in all respects, but fitness is definitely part of it.

I have noticed about half a dozen people here in Gagetown doing Crossfit, and yes, I was one of the ones looking at them funny when I first saw them doing the kettle bell swing, or jumping up onto the 24inch high box. My first impression was: Retro trend, which will die off. For those not in the know here's a link for the exercise videos (look for kettle bell swing, and you may figure out what I mean by retro): http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

I am now one of the ones getting stared at (particularly by those that simply (and very slowly, I might add) walk idly around the track). I also do a lot of running (up to 21km at a go..... not fast, just long), stretching (very important, in my books, as I neglected it in my youth), and other forms of non-traditional things like head- and hand-stands (kind of a yoga thing, but it also improves balance, and it helps with handstand push-ups). Doing what we have always done (usually too much of whatever is easiest and most convenient) has gotten us to where we are: we need to make changes, or suffer the consequences. Oh yeah, that's already happened.

Which segues nicely into my next concern: the CF (or certain units) will fall head over heels in love with Crossfit, and want to abandon everything else. This would be bad. Even though Crossfit is pretty basic, without a need for fancy-schmancy multi-thousand dollar equipment, I can't see 50 people (i.e a recruit or the like course) doing Crossfit effectively, if it is done as we have in the past: everyone does warmup together, work out together, finish as a team. Unless I am on glue, I can't fathom that happening with most of the "named" workouts (look through the Workout of the Day (WOD) pages, due to the fact that it is mostly GO, GO, GO throughout, and waiting for someone to be done with something defeats the purpose of Crossfit. Then it is basically circuit training (which CF really is, at heart). We would have to re-examine our idea of what constitutes "unit" PT. Would we allow people to determine what "prescription" they need, make a plan, and then follow it??? I do it, but I have the luxury of doing that (rank and position), and I have noticed that every other person in Gagetown who is doing Crossfit (or something similar) is a Sr NCO or officer. Hmmmmmm. Maybe we should stop holding people by the hand (i.e. Pte's/Cpl's/MCpl's) and let them plan (with PSP staff assistance if required) and follow their progress from a distance (i.e. take their word that they are following the plan, and follow-up with testing results after a set period). That's pretty innovative. Actually it's not. They do something similar for those on remedial PT, don't they? Why wait until they are at that stage (needing remedial PT) and let them plan/follow their own PT program.

Of course, there are aspects that must be group-style (sports and ruckmarches), but even then there should be a certain amount of latitude to allow tailoring to different soldier's needs/capabilities. This type of mentality/attitude/culture change likely causes some people to blow a nut just thinking about allowing people to do something other than the same old, same old (I think we all know what type of people I mean by this.....). Letting grown ups act like grown ups. What a concept.

If there are pers who can't/won't plan or follow their own program, punish them, not those that actually want to do what works for them (i.e. continuing with what I refer to as Lowest Common Denominator PT: running only as fast or long as the slowest person can handle, and the like).

All of this would only work post-Basic training, I can imagine, as recruits will require far more direction and guidance (obviously), but let's remember that in a 25 year (let's say that's the average career) career, Basic trg only comprises approx 6 months, or 2%, of a soldier's career: let's focus on the other 98%.

I do hope that Crossfit is "approved" for use in the CF (well, I've been doing it, and haven't been jailed yet, and there aren't any exercises that I have seen that are "dangerous" (following strict form, of course), so I don't know why it wouldn't be "legal"), but it isn't the 100% solution, anyway, as paracowboy points out. In fact, if you read the CF FAQ, it points out that:
Part of the crossfit philosophy includes pursuing/learning another sport or activity, and many crossfitters are also martial artists and competitive athletes in a variety of disciplines.
BTW, I highly recommend reading the FAQ and the Start Here! page before starting with Crossfit (that and view the exercise videos to ensure correct form is used).

Al

Editted for stunned-ass spelling/grammar errors.
 
Excellent post.  I think this is the one time I am glad I am in the mo, I can plan/excute my own pt progam without being sucked into time wasting group pt that sinks to the lowest common denominator, which basically screws everyone else out of decent workout. (save the debate for reserve compensation etc. for the other threads on that subject.)
 
Part of the crossfit philosophy includes pursuing/learning another sport or activity, and many crossfitters are also martial artists and competitive athletes in a variety of disciplines.

There you have it. CrossFit isn't be-all and end-all. The thing is that it won't replace a certain type of activity (hear ruckmarching) or a sport. Conversely, sports or specific activity will complete the broad, general, core training that CrossFit brings.

I also don't think they should scrap AFM and adopt CrossFit, but integrate it to military PT as Allan so clearly explained. The beautiful thing with CrossFit is that it is scalable (meaning that any fitness-level person can do it) and that it has a great customization potential. You can work it out at your pace and improving your weaknesses by adapting it to what you need or want. So you can focus on power lifting, or stretching, or endurance by adding specific workouts along the WODs and the sport(s) you practice.
 
Some interesting discussion on Crossfit.  As I just finished the CrossFit seminar in Gagetown, I can add something useful to the discussion.  First of all the 3 day seminar was to allow us to be CrossFit level one coaches - There is, I believe at least 3, possibly four levels of coaching.  You will find that the Army Fitness Manual is being re-written to add a CrossFit Annex, when that is to be released - I don't know hopefully relative soon.  The Infantry School is perhaps the biggest supporter of the CrossFit fitness system in the CF right now and according to one of the coaches at the seminar, the CF is the "envy" of many other nations in terms of official "recognition" of the CrossFit system (ie adding the Annex to the AFM).  Powerlifting and gymnastics are part of the "founding" pillars of CrossFit, which can be seen when and if you review the CrossFit exercise.  Some of the basic lifts we learned are all based on Olympic Lifting - Deadlifts, Squats, Cleans, Clean and Jerks etc.  There are a couple of issues of the CrossFit journal - which you have to subscribe to - which have described how you can make the CrossFit workouts a "team" workout.  In terms of teaching cohesion the coaches used a quote which indicated that cohesion is a result of sharing "agony and joy" - once you have completed a CrossFit workout you will know that CrossFit doles out equal parts of both. CrossFit probably will not be adopted at lower levels of military trg - because the realistic achievement of the skills involved in doing the Olympic lifts correctly - probably will not be achieved in the time required.  It is better suited for individual workouts because part of what drives the CrossFit system is the competition.  You want to get a better score/time than the guy or gal next to you and not finish last, scores are usually posted to ensure that everyone knows how you did - believe me that is motivation to push hard.

I like Al's points indicated above - perhaps level 3 would be a good stepping stone to CrossFit for the CF. Al do you want a copy of last year's CrossFit material - I got the latest one last week and have a copy of the old one (its missing 5-6 journals)
For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.
 
plattypuss said:
Some interesting discussion on Crossfit.  As I just finished the CrossFit seminar in Gagetown, I can add something useful to the discussion.  First of all the 3 day seminar was to allow us to be CrossFit level one coaches - There is, I believe at least 3, possibly four levels of coaching.  You will find that the Army Fitness Manual is being re-written to add a CrossFit Annex, when that is to be released - I don't know hopefully relative soon.  The Infantry School is perhaps the biggest supporter of the CrossFit fitness system in the CF right now and according to one of the coaches at the seminar, the CF is the "envy" of many other nations in terms of official "recognition" of the CrossFit system (ie adding the Annex to the AFM).  Powerlifting and gymnastics are part of the "founding" pillars of CrossFit, which can be seen when and if you review the CrossFit exercise.  Some of the basic lifts we learned are all based on Olympic Lifting - Deadlifts, Squats, Cleans, Clean and Jerks etc.  There are a couple of issues of the CrossFit journal - which you have to subscribe to - which have described how you can make the CrossFit workouts a "team" workout.  In terms of teaching cohesion the coaches used a quote which indicated that cohesion is a result of sharing "agony and joy" - once you have completed a CrossFit workout you will know that CrossFit doles out equal parts of both. CrossFit probably will not be adopted at lower levels of military trg - because the realistic achievement of the skills involved in doing the Olympic lifts correctly - probably will not be achieved in the time required.  It is better suited for individual workouts because part of what drives the CrossFit system is the competition.  You want to get a better score/time than the guy or gal next to you and not finish last, scores are usually posted to ensure that everyone knows how you did - believe me that is motivation to push hard.

I like Al's points indicated above - perhaps level 3 would be a good stepping stone to CrossFit for the CF. Al do you want a copy of last year's CrossFit material - I got the latest one last week and have a copy of the old one (its missing 5-6 journals)
For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.

Thanks for the info, especially that last bit
For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.
right there that some people (not necessarily here, but say the New York Times, and others) have not understood/realized ands thats why people get hurt.  They don't read all info that on the site, particularly the aptly named section  "Getting Started", where in the 5th paragraph it explicitly says that the WOD's will tax even high level athletes, and that everyone should start off completing the workouts comfortably and consitently before you ramp up the intensity to 100%. 
 
plattypuss said:
For anyone curious if you do try a Workout of the Day just remember that you should attack them progressively - don't necessarily try them at the listed weights or you will probably hurt yourself and swear off the CrossFit system for good.

Yeah, it's not obvious until you read the FAQ. Kinda freaky at first sight.

As to some suggestion on scalable WODs, go see the Brand X Martial Arts CrossFit WOD forum. Very useful.
 
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