D.I.E. cis-het white men bun fight [Split from:SWO badge]

[Jarnhamar]

Looking at "cishet" stascan reported that 4% of the population identify as 2SLGBTQ2+ in 2018. (1/3 of whom are under 25)

From the same year it appears 0.24% of Canadians identified as trans or Non-binary.

Very rough math indicates there's around 91,200 trans/non-binary Canadians. Not taking into account the percentage of that number that are under 18, over 65, or can't meet UoS, is it a surprise our organization isn't swimming with trans leaders?

Wouldn't having 1 trans general actually be over representation?

Same question with 2SLGBTQ2+.
At 4% of the population that doesn't give the CAF a big 2SLGBTQ2+ pool to draw senior leaders from.

 

[btrudy]

What is it specifically about the system that favours white men?

Probably best explained in the report

 

[SupersonicMax]

Probably best explained in the report

Don’t cop out. Point is to the relevant sections of the report.

 

[Remius]

Probably best explained in the report

So when I read the section on women. It’s says child rearing is a big issue. How does one address that then?

Women that choose to take time off to have kids is the issue. I know plenty of men that take time off for child rearing. Are they disadvantaged as well?

Men can take time off. Men do take time off. What makes it an issue in the CAF that advantages men over women?

If both men and women take that time why is one not disadvantaged over the other?

 

[Jarnhamar]

If both men and women take that time why is one not disadvantaged over the other?

Wasn't this the report that said men should be forced to take time off?

 

[Remius]

Wasn't this the report that said men should be forced to take time off?

They did.

My question though is why does time off for a kid disadvantage a woman more that a man? Or do both face the same disadvantage? Both can take parental leave.

 

[MH2022]

You’ve done GBA+, right? Why on earth would you chose to use a gender as a verb when there are much more appropriate words to use?


Edit to add: Ah, you mean the “so long as it’s white males leaving” part. Well, you see, anti-discriminatory discrimination is actually allowed by CAF and GoC policy. btrudy pointed out the relative section earlier in this thread, Part 16 of the Charter. I believe.

Add #2:

This part here:

There's the other thing about this place, you'd rather latch onto some minute detail than actually focus on the main point. We are running out of personal, that is my point of you, want to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything is fine enjoy. We need to figure out why we are losing 10k people a decade or soon

You’ve done GBA+, right? Why on earth would you chose to use a gender as a verb when there are much more appropriate words to use?


Edit to add: Ah, you mean the “so long as it’s white males leaving” part. Well, you see, anti-discriminatory discrimination is actually allowed by CAF and GoC policy. btrudy pointed out the relative section earlier in this thread, Part 16 of the Charter. I believe.

Add #2:

This part here:

There's the other thing about this place, you'd rather latch onto some minute detail than actually focus on the main point. We are running out of personal, that is my point, if you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything is fine enjoy. We need to figure out why we are running out of people cause at the end of the day we can't afford to lose any more

 

[Brad Sallows]

The evaluation system is very specific; criticisms should be equally specific. No amount of hand-waving about general factors and insinuations will do.

One cultural bias that everyone seems comfortable overlooking is this: men are expected to support at least themselves, if not a family and society at large, starting from whatever time they leave high school. Women are not.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Maybe its the fact that right now its a extremely hot job market, huge social safety net, not really that much reason to want to be in the CAF anymore as most the perks that existed are dying a quick death, and all the disadvantages of civilian work culture is being fostered on it.

Give a huge recession and a loss of security net and the CAF will boom again.

 

[Weinie]

well

Look, I get it. You don't care about the problem because it doesn't affect you. And you resort to mockery of people who do care.

Sure as heck says a lot about you and your moral compass, or lack thereof, but you do you I guess.

I only mock those that deserve to be mocked.

 

[btrudy]

They did.

My question though is why does time off for a kid disadvantage a woman more that a man? Or do both face the same disadvantage? Both can take parental leave.

I don't think it does, it's just women are far more likely to take said leave than men do.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Here’s the most recent PER / evaluation policies that are relevant:

CANFORGEN 045/20, Para 5(f)



CANFORGEN 023/21, Para 5(f)



And finally, CANFORGEN 009/22

Para 4(a) [which adds “improved in future years”]




and Para 5(d) and (e)


My PER is completely void of any indication of sex, gender, etc.

I’m not sure how any Board can advantage or disadvantage me and my scoring. I guess there is the odd chance they have been on Sqn or a deployment with me etc and recognize me by name alone.

 

[dimsum]

I don't think it does, it's just women are far more likely to take said leave than men do.

In my (admittedly non-scientific) recall of my friends, all of them (male and female) took PATA leave.

Granted, it was likely because they were gone so much that they'd want to take time with their baby/family, but who knows...

 

[Remius]

I don't think it does, it's just women are far more likely to take said leave than men do.

Ok so then the issue of promotions and lost opportunities is a result of mata/pata being the issue not something inherently systemically sexist towards women and favouring white men.

MATA/PATA (in this case) then is the issue and it affects the careers of both men and women in equal terms.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Everyone has their own little story on the CAF…

I showed up in Cornwallis in July 1989; 18 years old growing up in PEI. Our first Marching NCO was MCpl Turcotte. They marched us around including to meet our Platoon Commander; WO Tacso. Our platoon was fairly large; 120 people from all across Canada and the different ethnicities and cultures that existed in the day. Rural Canada, urban Canada. We spent huge amounts of time together and quickly learned lots about differences in our upbringings and even differences experienced because of the province we grew up in. It was my first exposure to a cross cut of Canadian society from coast to coast. There were certainly personality conflicts especially after a night in the G & G; none of them racial based - some people just don’t like each other. We passed our Saluting test and were presented our cap badges by our Coy Commander, Capt Manko. One of our MCpl instructors was the spouse of a Lt(N). We would watch them salute their spouse when they came to our Shacks at the end of the training day sometimes and think how weird that must be, to salute your spouse.

I remember not long after leaving Cornwallis and experiencing Gagetown for the first time in 1990 and being challenged by the Base RSM, CWO Clayton, for walking on the grass (which was part of a soccer or ball field) taking a short cut to the Maritimer. An imposing individual who left their impression on you. Also remember the same type of impression from a Parachute Instructor (PI) on my Basic Para in ‘92 at the CABC - Sgt Thomas. A hard, professional soldier you watched and said “I want to be like they are”.

MCpl Turcotte was a French Canadian female.

Our instructors married to the Lt(N) was a medic male MCpl whose wife was a Nursing Officer or whatever the trade was back then.

WO (Clyde) Tasco was a black man, who became a friend many years down the road when I meet him again when I was a young Sgt. RIP Clyde.

Capt Manko was a female Air Force DEU officer. She commanded C Coy.

So in my Platoon, a female Officer was in command of a black WO who oversaw a French Canadian female who was our “God”; instructors controlled our every waking moment. We watched one of our Mcpls, salute his wife and call her ma’am.

Base RSM, CWO Cy Clayton was a much feared and respected figure. He is also a black Canadian from Halifax.

Sgt Thomas; a very fit and professional FN airborne solider.

Maybe we were doing it right then, in some places and ways at least.

Fast forward 2009 timeframe. Then LCol Bourgon was CO 406 or when I was there on BTL before heading to Winnipeg for Wings training. My Crse Dir was a female Sgt. The WO who did my check ride…female WO.
Years later, I enjoyed a relaxed and friendly conversation with then BGen Bourgon on the patio at Camp Canada in Kuwait after they took over commander of Joint Task Force - Iraq with another Sgt who had also been at 12 Wg during their Comd. That would have been 2015, tail end of Roto 0.

And there are some of the reasons the “only white men have and will progress” message rings false to my lived experiences in the CAF in the last near-33 years.

No, we aren’t perfect. Likely never will be because our recruiting base is imperfect. But we’re much better than we were and taking steps to modernize. I think we can give ourselves a pat on the back while continuing to move forward.

 

[Good2Golf]

There's the other thing about this place, you'd rather latch onto some minute detail than actually focus on the main point. We are running out of personal, that is my point of you, want to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything is fine enjoy. We need to figure out why we are losing 10k people a decade or soon

Could you help some of us out with appreciating the acknowledged main factors in the 10k/year loss of personnel?

 

[FSTO]

In my (admittedly non-scientific) recall of my friends, all of them (male and female) took PATA leave.

Granted, it was likely because they were gone so much that they'd want to take time with their baby/family, but who knows...

When my daughter was born in 92 I had no idea that there was PATA leave available. So I kept sailing. My son was born while I was RSS at a NRD so saw no need for it. When one of my fellow officers applied for PATA the rest of us where somewhat shocked that it was available and that he took it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

So by your logic, if white males are bad for the organization, why is the CAF even still teaching skills to them? Let them move on from the CAF, as Bruce Monkhouse suggests, and then simply replace them with the proper proportion of demographics of new CAF members — problem solved!

Yep! They told me I needed to wait the compulsory six months. As far as I was concerned, sooner the better.

Not saying you're evil, the facts say we're losing people. We need to find ways to keep what we have left, if that means a union let's do it. But right now the troops are leaving in droves. This whole site will spends months debating the ideal amount of c6s in a platoon but none of that matters if in 10 years there ain't anyone left to man them.

Nobody wants to serve in the CAF because it's a toxic workplace. The current war against "toxic masculinity" has a lot to do with that toxicity.

Looking at "cishet" stascan reported that 4% of the population identify as 2SLGBTQ2+ in 2018. (1/3 of whom are under 25)

From the same year it appears 0.24% of Canadians identified as trans or Non-binary.

Very rough math indicates there's around 91,200 trans/non-binary Canadians. Not taking into account the percentage of that number that are under 18, over 65, or can't meet UoS, is it a surprise our organization isn't swimming with trans leaders?

Wouldn't having 1 trans general actually be over representation?

Same question with 2SLGBTQ2+.
At 4% of the population that doesn't give the CAF a big 2SLGBTQ2+ pool to draw senior leaders from.

These people remind me of those parents that think their kids are going to make the NHL because they paid for all the expensive camps, bought them the best gear, etc.

They have trouble accepting the fact that.... "maybe they just aren't that good?"

With only 91,000 trans/non-binary Canadians, the chances of them producing a General Officer on merit are incredibly low. Probably lower than one of them making the NHL.

The stars would need to align perfectly. It's the same thing with females that want to have kids instead of working and end up missing important career milestones, deployments and gaining subsequent experience as a result.

 

[FSTO]

Yep! They told me I needed to wait the compulsory six months. As far as I was concerned, sooner the better.



Nobody wants to serve in the CAF because it's a toxic workplace. The current war against "toxic masculinity" has a lot to do with that toxicity.


These people remind me of those parents that think their kids are going to make the NHL because they paid for all the expensive camps, bought them the best gear, etc.

They have trouble accepting the fact that.... "maybe they just aren't that good?"

With only 91,000 trans/non-binary Canadians, the chances of them producing a General Officer on merit are incredibly low. Probably lower than one of them making the NHL.

The stars would need to align perfectly. It's the same thing with females that want to have kids instead of working and end up missing important career milestones, deployments and gaining subsequent experience as a result.

Heretic

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Heretic

Yep, probably for the best I'm moving on in a few weeks

Hopefully in a few years, I'll be crying myself to sleep with dollar bills wondering why I ever gave a damn