Deindustrialization of Canada

[Colin Parkinson]

Many of the municipal council members get their campaign funds from developers, who see industrial lands as resource for making themselves rich. I got a taste of the pressure that local governments get from developers when you have to curtail their ideas, they needed a federal permit to construct and assumed they could bulldoze their way through, very unhappy when they could not intimidate us. (benefits of having a Minister from another Province than BC) 

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

In most cases, probably not.  Let market forces "decide".  The problem isn't setting land aside in perpetuity; the problem is allowing industry to relocate when gentrification pushes it out.  Given permission to build, commercial and industrial enterprises will move "further out" to cheaper land and build the rail lines and roads they need.  A displacement gives opponents of the enterprise a chance to kill it for good: they litigate to prevent it from landing anywhere else.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Something else that comes to mind is a major loss of industrial-friendly land: Victoria Harbour, for example, has seen a major shift from industrial waterfront to residential/tourist/etc. development. Would it make sense to establish an "industrial land reserve" for chunks of land with good transport links (water, rail, highway, etc.), as much of the best industrial land is also prime high-end residential territory?

It's not as if this kind of thing happens without some forethought, not always good forethought but forethought nonetheless.

https://www.victoria.ca/assets/Departments/Planning~Development/Development~Services/Documents/neighbourhoods-victoria-harbour-plan.pdf
VICTORIA HARBOUR PLAN

CITY OF VICTORIA
Adopted by Victoria City Council November 1, 2001
Revised August 30, 2012

 

[Kirkhill]

Problem not unique.

It is endemic around the US and also observed in Vancouver, Toronto and Halifax.  Not to mention any and all fishing villages.

People love the "colour" of a quaint fishing harbour.  But then they discover that fishermen come and go at all hours, make noises, shine bright lights, bump into things, make smells and leave stuff in the water.  Same thing for farmers.  And pulp mills.  And steel mills. etc.

It is not as if we are short of space for industrial areas.  We are short of common sense.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We had some rich people build fancy homes next to the North Arm of the Fraser river, seems they didn't like a bunch of tugs moving 18 sections of logs up the river at 3am at about 2-3kts with their Jimmes screaming away. They called us at the Coast Guard base demanding we "close the river" at night. We just laughed at them.

 

[KJK]

We had some rich people build fancy homes next to the North Arm of the Fraser river, seems they didn't like a bunch of tugs moving 18 sections of logs up the river at 3am at about 2-3kts with their Jimmes screaming away. They called us at the Coast Guard base demanding we "close the river" at night. We just laughed at them.

This sounds similar to the people that build fancy houses next to a pig or dairy farm and them want the farmers to move their operation because of the smell or next to a shooting range and complain about the noise.

 

[quadrapiper]

It's not as if this kind of thing happens without some forethought, not always good forethought but forethought nonetheless.

https://www.victoria.ca/assets/Departments/Planning~Development/Development~Services/Documents/neighbourhoods-victoria-harbour-plan.pdf
VICTORIA HARBOUR PLAN

CITY OF VICTORIA
Adopted by Victoria City Council November 1, 2001
Revised August 30, 2012

"Forethought" generally applied by the level of government most easily swayed by two-bit residential developers.

Was thinking of something a) provincially imposed, and b) sufficiently hard to get land out of as to render it worthless except for industrial purposes. We need shipyards more than we need waterfront condos. On a related note, would be very happy to see the BC ALR made effectively impossible to remove land from, and expanded to include anything zoned or used for ag purposes. In both cases, residential and commercial/retail should be understood as something that can happen on land unsuited for growing, building, or transporting things. Again in both cases, it seems better that a chunk of land lie fallow than be filled with the sort of low-density, high-priced housing surrounding Point Hope yard in Victoria.

 

[QV]

MM, considering the US economy is on fire while Canada's is in a death spiral, I 'd say Bruce Monkhouse has a point. 

The US is reaping the rewards of a Trump presidency whether all of the citizens like it or not, and Canadians are losing jobs by the train load across the country.  Both results are directly related to the policies enacted by each respective government. 

The November jobs loss for Canada (worst loss since 2009) and the big jobs gained for the US are an indication of where each economy is. 
I stand by my original post.

https://globalnews.ca/news/6262739/canada-biggest-job-loss-financial-crisis/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/06/us-nonfarm-payrolls-november-2019.html

 

[mariomike]

The November jobs loss for Canada (worst loss since 2009) and the big jobs gained for the US are an indication of where each economy is. 

Opinions vary,

Canada's economy is not in a death spiral.  Not even close.  However there is a recession coming, including the US as the sugar high of Trump tax cuts run their course and the diet of trade wars begin.

Trillion-dollar deficits as far as the eye can see, and hardly a voice of caution to be heard
https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/472480-trillion-dollar-deficits-as-far-as-the-eye-can-see-and-not-a-voice-of

 

[Kirkhill]

The new government in Britain is promoting infrastructure.  It has a couple of multi-billion pound projects on the books. It appears to be letting one go ahead if it can find private funding.  The other, with public funding, appears as if it will be reallocated across a number of smaller, locally approved projects.

From The Telegraph

There is always some vested interest or life that will be wrecked by big infrastructure spending, and with byzantine planning laws, it doesn’t take much to delay, stall and eventually kill them off. Whether bold, ambitious and disruptive infrastructure projects are any longer ever really possible in an unruly advanced democracy such as our own is increasingly open to question.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/01/05/time-bite-bullet-cancel-hs2-wholly-back-northern-crossrail/

We aren't China.  We, like Britain, and the US, and Australia, are "an unruly, advanced democracy".  Guess we'll just have to get used to it.

 

[dapaterson]

Amazon is pulling out of Quebec... a successful union drive means they've decided to close completely in the province. Scorched earth.

Amazon is ceasing operations in Quebec

Online retail giant Amazon is pulling out of Quebec, a spokesperson confirmed to CTV News. The company says it will cease operations over the next two months in various centres and facilities.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[Halifax Tar]

Amazon is pulling out of Quebec... a successful union drive means they've decided to close completely in the province. Scorched earth.

Amazon is ceasing operations in Quebec

Online retail giant Amazon is pulling out of Quebec, a spokesperson confirmed to CTV News. The company says it will cease operations over the next two months in various centres and facilities.

www.ctvnews.ca

Quebec... Playing stupid games, they finally win a stupid prize.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Quebec... Playing stupid games, they finally win a stupid prize.

Alternatively giant evil corporation refuses to allow union to advocate for better working conditions.

If they are unionizing it isn’t because there isn’t a need. It is because the company is failing to live up to what they should. Happy/well treated employees don’t unionize.

 

[Good2Golf]

Alternatively giant evil corporation refuses to allow union to advocate for better working conditions.

If they are unionizing it isn’t because there isn’t a need. It is because the company is failing to live up to what they should. Happy/well treated employees don’t unionize.

Amazon’s announcement noted severed employees would get 14 weeks pay. That seems generous for employees with 3-4 years employment at best. In Ontario, the ESA grants two weeks base + a week per year employed.

 

[dapaterson]

Amazon’s announcement noted severed employees would get 14 weeks pay. That seems generous for employees with 3-4 years employment at best. In Ontario, the ESA grants two weeks base + a week per year employed.

Someone's lawyers and accountants teamed up to try to prevent legal action for the closeout and terminations.

 

[MJP]

Amazon’s announcement noted severed employees would get 14 weeks pay. That seems generous for employees with 3-4 years employment at best. In Ontario, the ESA grants two weeks base + a week per year employed.

Quebec legislation is on a whole other level when it comes to firing people and giving compensation.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Amazon’s announcement noted severed employees would get 14 weeks pay. That seems generous for employees with 3-4 years employment at best. In Ontario, the ESA grants two weeks base + a week per year employed.

The base is roughly 2 weeks per year, but you can sue for more. In this case I suspect they would get a higher amount than the base in court as they aren’t shutting down due to lack of profits rather to try and avoid legal mechanisms at every employee’s disposal.

Not to mention the legal fees and costs of being used by hundreds of employees if they tried to low ball them too much.

Don’t confuse trying to avoid lawsuits with generosity. One is done out of kindness the other done out of greed.

 

[Good2Golf]

Don’t confuse trying to avoid lawsuits with generosity. One is done out of kindness the other done out of greed.

I am in no way confused. It’s business, not benevolence. That said, one should take care not to place unions on a guilded pedestal either.

 

[quadrapiper]

Alternatively giant evil corporation refuses to allow union to advocate for better working conditions.

If they are unionizing it isn’t because there isn’t a need. It is because the company is failing to live up to what they should. Happy/well treated employees don’t unionize.

All that Amazon merch still has to move in Quebec: this is a win for local businesses/Canada Post. Good riddance.

 

[Furniture]

I suspect the union, in combination with Quebec language laws were the driving factor.

Why deal with the frustration when you can ship from Ontario warehouses that are close enough?