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Dion, Ignatieff meet with Karzai in Afghanistan

  I wonder what the reaction was from the boys on the ground? I haven't seen any clips of him with the fighting soldiers, just the walking around timmies & the ball hockey court, but what about the troops outside of the wire doing the job, surely they could have told Dion his band of handshaking Librals exactly what would happen to the country should Canada stop looking for the enemy?
  I mean has anyone stopped to ask this guy why we all pushed through Panjwai and lost some of the most nobel brave souls this military had? Things would have been a whole lot easier if we could have all just stopped there, if we had known this was going to be the end result,,, handing it all back over to the dirty F'ing Taliban a few years later?


:cdn:
 
But why would the Taliban want to harm Messrs Dion and Ignatieff ;):

Tory MP put lives at risk, Liberals charge
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080114.wafghansecurity14/BNStory/Front/

Conservatives and Liberals love getting into wars of words. But until now, no one was worried the Taliban would get involved.

Yet that's what happened during this weekend's visit to Afghanistan by Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff.

Conservative MP Helena Guergis put "lives at additional, unnecessary risk in the name of playing petty politics," Liberal spokesman Jean-François del Torchio charged yesterday.

He accused the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs of endangering their lives by speaking about the Liberal itinerary in Afghanistan 12 hours ahead of schedule, at a time when a complete news blackout surrounded their visit to Kandahar.

"She effectively told the Taliban that they would be leaving base to visit the Provincial Reconstruction Team," Mr. del Torchio said...

And what was this headline writer smoking?  Were their weapons concealed?

Liberal Top Guns In Afghan Summit
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=235980

Mark
Ottawa
 
Sounds like a rather large "Whoops!" to me, albeit a very serious one.

People like these (politicians) need better handlers, and they need to be briefed better about what is and isn't expected.  They don't always work with these constraints, and they're always looking for a soundbite.

"Whoops"
 
Hello!  Irony anyone?  The Liberals ACKNOWLEDGE that by simply knowledge of their presence could have endangered their lives YET they want to stop us from seeking out and getting those "murderous Taliban".
The Liberal Party said in a statement Sunday that Guergis had effectively told "the murderous Taliban" about Dion's plans to visit the base, putting his life and the lives of Canadian soldiers and diplomats at risk.
(Source:  http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/01/13/kandahar-dion.html)
My question to Mr Dion: how should we deal with murderers?  Run away?  Appease?  Historically, I think Mr. Ignatieff knows how to deal with them, but Mr. Dion doesn't seem to care. 
 
In my opinion the reason that all the opposition leaders don't make any sense is because for them the war is a means to an ends not the ends. I think that they don't care about the soldiers, the Afghans or the peacenicks back home, it's all about stampeding their way to the top of the moral hill and damn anyone who gets in their way.

Hopefully the majority of Canadians see this and punish them in the next election for it. No thanks to the MSM who also don't care about who their bias will hurt and only care about ratings and career building they can garner by presenting Afghanistan as Canada's Vietnam.

I think if they get into power and make a pigs ear out of the mission, it won't matter to them because they will turn their attention and by extention the media's attention to the enviroment, trade or other domestic affairs and the mission in Afghanistan will drop off the collective consiousness.

Should that happen hopefully they will stop poking their nose in and let the mission run as it needs to be, but I fear the CF is too large a piece on the political chess board to ignore completetly now and we are in for decades of political micro managment.
 
And this from a NATO rep. Notice how the reporter writes "NATO says it's time to shift from combat." when later on the NATO spokesman clearly says "We're not at the phase where we can take that step."
??? Did the reporter not listen to guy when he spoke, or just hear what he wanted too?

And look for the reply at the end from some well informed scholar in military affairs named Michalina.

**********************************


Time to shift away from Afghan combat role: NATO

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080114/nato_role_080114/20080114?hub=TopStories

Updated Mon. Jan. 14 2008 10:08 AM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

NATO agrees its time for the role of foreign troops in Afghanistan to shift away from one of combat to one of support, says a spokesperson for the international organization.

James Appathurai discussed the NATO position as Liberal Leader Stephane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff visited the war-torn nation and called for Canada to stay on beyond February 2009 when the mission is scheduled to end, but in a non-combat role.

"I think actually we all agree on the end state -- NATO and I think probably the political parties here too -- and that's transition," Appathurai, a Canadian, told CTV's Canada AM on Monday.

"We want to move to a phase where the Afghans are in the lead and we provide support, training, close air support, emergency support but let them do the frontline fighting. It's a question of when."

Appathurai, who recently returned from a visit to the Panjwaii region of Afghanistan, said that transition -- which many see as no more than a distant and unlikely possibility -- may actually not be that far off.

"We have two Afghan battalions now, with Canadian troops, and taking an increasingly leading role. But the key is, from my perspective but also from NATO's perspective, we haven't reached a tipping point. We're not at the phase where we can take that step."

Canada has taken a lead role in the volatile south of Afghanistan, facing the Taliban head on and taking casualties, with 76 soldiers and one diplomat now killed since 2002 -- and several more injured over the weekend.

That has many Canadians questioning why the frontline fighting isn't being shared more evenly among the NATO countries serving in Afghanistan.

But Appathurai said other countries are helping shoulder the burden.

"I think the first thing to say is we're not alone. There are eleven countries directly involved in the combat all the time. Two Dutch were just killed yesterday," he pointed out.

"And eight countries in the last three or four months have stepped up their contribution to the combat role. The Poles just announced a couple of days ago, 400 new troops, eight new helicopters. The Americans are considering 3,000 more soldiers for the south."

The problem, he said, is that Canadian journalists travel to Kandahar where Canadians are taking a leading role, and most of the stories that emerge cover the risks Canadian soldiers are taking in that region.

A Liberal news release issued Saturday said Dion and Ignatieff met with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and told him that while the party believes Canada's combat mission should end in 2009, the party supports diplomatic and development efforts.

"We are convinced after the day we've had that we will have plenty of things to do that will involve, yes, to take risks, but anywhere we will go whether Darfur or Haiti, there are always risks," Dion told reporters in Kabul.

"We are not afraid of the risks. But we want to sure that we have a balanced mission after 2009 that will be optimally helpful for the people of Afghanistan."

Karzai's reaction to the statement isn't known yet, but reports indicate he thanked Canada for its service in his country to date.

Appathurai said the proposal put forward by Ignatieff and Dion is not unrealistic. In fact, there are already indications that it is on the way, he said.

"It's already happening. In Panjwaii it's happening. We saw a major operation in a town people might have seen in Helmand where the Taliban ... was actually in charge until a couple of months ago. The Afghans led the mission, we came in behind, we kicked them out."

The ultimate goal, he said, is for the Afghan National Army to be handling security in the country and for other nations to support those efforts.

He also said it is critical, both to NATO and the United Nations that the mission in Afghanistan results in a successful outcome. High level UN officials have said that if NATO pulls out, they will also leave because they won't have the necessary security.

"I think to the whole international community, Afghanistan is critical. If we fail in Afghanistan, it means that the UN fails, this is a UN mission, that NATO is doing basically on contract," Appathurai said.

Under that scenario, Afghanistan could easily return to a Taliban-run country, he warned.

"Afghanistan will again be the grand central station of terrorism. There will be terrorists from all over the world, like there were in 2001, training and leaving again to go back to their countries to be more extreme. We will all suffer."

Please Add Comments(7)

Michalina
Finally NATO is starting to wake up...Canada does not have the proper training nor equipment for a combat role. Let's do the right thing - help people with shelter, clothing and food...Why are we there for again?????Hello......
 
My comment that I posted (soon to see if it makes it through)
The article title is misleading. 
"Time to shift away from Afghan combat role: NATO" says the CTV.  Sounds similar to the lines Mr. Dion and Mr. Ignatieff were spouting this weekend.  Read the article.  Mr. Appathurai says:
"We have two Afghan battalions now, with Canadian troops, and taking an increasingly leading role. But the key is, from my perspective but also from NATO's perspective, we haven't reached a tipping point. We're not at the phase where we can take that step."

Let me say that again.  WE'RE NOT AT THE PHASE WHERE WE CAN TAKE THAT STEP.  Sounds to me that this is NOT the time to shift away from a combat role.  Shame on the ctv editor who let this slip.
Thanks for the tip, Kilekalder: I totally missed that!
:salute:
 
I think I seen this on TV.

It sounded like Dion was in Afghanistan campaigning to be prime minister of Canada.
"If I was prime minister I would do this this and that".

Rubbed me the wrong way for some reason. Didn't seem like an appropiate place to be campaigning.  I don't really think we should send the families of fallen soldiers over to Afghanistan but I'd sure as hell rather spend tax dollars sending soldiers family members over there for a visit then sending Dion over there.
 
"NATO says it's time to shift from combat."

The editor didn't let it slip - That's what he wanted to convey.
It helps to stir the pot.

Unfortunately I don't think Dion is trying to rebrand Canada's
mission like "military advisers" in Vietnam.
I think he actually foresees a positive outcome.

What Dion doesn't foresee is that everyone wants to play the nice guy.
It's not so easy to foist the hard stuff onto someone else.

What's absolutely clear is that Dion's mind is made up no matter how wrong he is.
 
When Good News Is No News
"Certainly it is historically odd for war reporting to diminish almost to the point of public invisibility - just as our troops are starting to gain the upper hand. But we are fighting this war with the journalists we have, not the ones we want"
Tony Blankley
Real Clear Politics
 
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080114/nato_role_080114/20080114?hub=World

Comments are now closed for the story, and my comment failed to make it in; however, the "byline" has changed to the following:

Afghans taking on more of a combat role: NATO
 
Another post at The Torch:

CTV spinning the Afghan news/President Karzai responds to "Top Guns"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2008/01/ctv-spinning-afghan-news.html

Mark
Ottawa
 
HE-He-he-he-he!

Thanks Mark.

I read the Torch and the newspaper links attached.
CTV has done some rewriting!?
Karzai doesn't agree with the fair haired boy of all Liberals!?
Lovin' it!
Dion's trip ends in humiliation.........As it should.  ;D
 
I am just glad that the gaffe of Guergis didnt lead to anything else during this trip
SHAWN MCCARTHY AND COLIN FREEZE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

January 14, 2008 at 4:36 AM EST

OTTAWA and KANDAHAR, AFGHANISTAN — Conservatives and Liberals love getting into wars of words. But until now, no one was worried the Taliban would get involved.

Yet that's what happened during this weekend's visit to Afghanistan by Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and deputy leader Michael Ignatieff.

Conservative MP Helena Guergis put "lives at additional, unnecessary risk in the name of playing petty politics," Liberal spokesman Jean-François del Torchio charged yesterday.

He accused the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs of endangering their lives by speaking about the Liberal itinerary in Afghanistan 12 hours ahead of schedule, at a time when a complete news blackout surrounded their visit to Kandahar.
 
This may infact belong in the Political section.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Worthington_Peter/2008/01/18/4779469.php

By PETER WORTHINGTON          Fri, January 18, 2008


From his visit last weekend to Afghanistan, it seems clear that if Stephane Dion ever becomes prime minister of Canada, the Armed Forces will be reduced to their previous depleted strength and their role limited as it was in the Trudeau years.

Jean Chretien, too, robbed the military -- preferring a $500 million penalty rather than honouring a contract to re-equip our soldiers and sailors with EH101 helicopters.

Unlike Deputy Leader Michael Ignatieff, who accompanied him to Kabul and Kandahar for a quick look-see, Dion has little appreciation, empathy or understanding of soldiers or things military. Come to think of it, he probably viscerally and intellectually dislikes soldiers.

In his press conference on leaving Afghanistan, Dion seemed to think our role should consist of turning soldiers into social workers -- no more seek and destroy stuff our troops have been doing so effectively.

Instead he wants our troops building schools, enhancing women's rights, digging wells for fresh water, training and assisting local communities. Silly ass. What escapes Dion's limited comprehension is that our troops have been doing all this social work stuff from day one, as well as kicking butt of the Taliban.



How can there be effective reconstruction if the Taliban retain a strong and malignant presence?

Ignatieff seems to realize this, and while careful not to contradict his boss, has acknowledged that the Taliban are a malignancy that must be exorcised.

The weekend in Afghanistan was a first for Dion.

Ignatief has been there three times -- first when the Taliban was savaging the people, forcing the burka on women, stoning female offenders, lopping of hands of some, shooting others in an empty Soviet-built swimming pool.

If he had more nerve, Dion would probably echo the NDP's Jack Layton who wants all our troops immediately pulled out of Afghanistan. Layton wants them sent to Darfur, if his past statements mean anything.

("Exactly the kind of peacekeeping role that Canadians have always supported," he has said).

To paraphrase Bill Clinton's view of Barack Obama: "Give us a break!" The logical solution to genocidal horror in Darfur is to change the government in Khartoum. Is that what Layton wants Canadian soldiers doing?

The trouble with Dion's trip to Afghanistan is that he'll now pose as an expert, and use his brief visit to justify his every prejudice about that country, and our military's role. His future Parliamentary debates will aim at further curbing military competence.

Layton, for his part, demeans the panel chaired by former Liberal cabinet minister John Manley that's due to submit recommendations on Afghanistan. He says it is too "pro-American" and that he won't co-operate with it or NATO.

With Layton and Dion leading opposition parties, one would think a federal election would be a coronation for Stephen Harper's Conservatives. Not so. Unless the polls are wrong, Liberals and Conservatives are about equal, and an election would return another minority government.

The pity is that the party leaders all seem unable to connect with voters. None of them instill confidence, none has the personality to lead a parade.

To the dismay of some, the Canadian public likes and trusts its military. Gen. Rick Hillier, personifying the Armed Forces, is more popular and trusted than any politician. Perhaps this is more a condemnation of politicians than an endorsement of him, but it's a fact, and a reason why the mutterings of either Dion or Layton don't deserve much attention.

One hopes Harper holds steady on Afghanistan, and listens to realists and humanitarians -- our soldiers.

 
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