Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[Happy Guy]

Just when I thought that the pendulum swung enough, being politically correct, and we were going back to the centre, then this happens.

Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

The directive urges chaplains to 'adopt a sensitive and inclusive approach' during public addresses.

nationalpost.com

 

[Biomans]

Freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

 

[dapaterson]

And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

 

[Furniture]

Freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

When we also cut smudging, and other religious/spiritual practices, we can cut Christian prayers too. Until then, it's simply removing one culture because it's considered socially acceptable to do it.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Freedom of religion requires freedom from religion.

Freedom of religion means the right to choose ones own religion, not to force others to hide theirs. If you only have a freedom in private, it isn’t a freedom.

Canada is a Christian nation whether or not people like it, it is right in our constitution. If hearing a priest or chaplain say a prayer is the end of the world for some, don’t go out. And I say this as a non-religious person that would most closely identify with paganism if forced to pick one.

I like how that article references being ‘inclusive’ yet its only inclusive towards those with a similar viewpoint, otherwise its very exclusive.

‘You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.’ -Inigo Montoya

 

[Biomans]

When we also cut smudging, and other religious/spiritual practices, we can cut Christian prayers too. Until then, it's simply removing one culture because it's considered socially acceptable to do it.

Are smudging or other religious practices integrated with common military practices enjoyed by everyone? If so, yes, they shouldn't be included in public activities. It's a mistake to look at it as a "they have their thing so I want mine" issue, you should view it as a "people have a right not have someone's personal beliefs forced on them" issue.

 

[Kilted]

Do many military padres lead remembrance day services? I know in most places it is normally whichever local minister that the Legion has asked to lead the service.

 

[Furniture]

Are smudging or other religious practices integrated with common military practices enjoyed by everyone? If so, yes, they shouldn't be included in public activities. It's a mistake to look at it as a "they have their thing so I want mine" issue, you should view it as a "people have a right not have someone's personal beliefs forced on them" issue.

Attending a ceremony where a person says some words, and takes off their hat is hardly being "forced" into anything. If your belief/lack of belief is so shallow that simply hearing words on the odd occasion harms you, that's a you problem.

I'm not suggesting we go back to church parades, or anything of the sort, but if the majority religion of Canadians(~53% as of 2021 census) can't be referenced at a solemn ceremony of remembrance(for people who were mostly also of that religion), we have problems.

 

[Biomans]

Freedom of religion means the right to choose ones own religion, not to force others to hide theirs. If you only have a freedom in private, it isn’t a freedom.

Canada is a Christian nation whether or not people like it, it is right in our constitution. If hearing a priest or chaplain say a prayer is the end of the world for some, don’t go out. And I say this as a non-religious person that would most closely identify with paganism if forced to pick one.

I like how that article references being ‘inclusive’ yet its only inclusive towards those with a similar viewpoint, otherwise its very exclusive.

‘You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.’ -Inigo Montoya

All I could find on religion in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms was this:

"Under section 2 of the Charter, Canadians are free to follow the religion of their choice. In addition, they are guaranteed freedom of thought, belief and expression. Since the media are an important means for communicating thoughts and ideas, the Charter protects the right of the press and other media to speak out."

Don't see any mention that Canada is a Christian nation.

 

[Biomans]

Attending a ceremony where a person says some words, and takes off their hat is hardly being "forced" into anything. If your belief/lack of belief is so shallow that simply hearing words on the odd occasion harms you, that's a you problem.

I'm not suggesting we go back to church parades, or anything of the sort, but if the majority religion of Canadians(~53% as of 2021 census) can't be referenced at a solemn ceremony of remembrance(for people who were mostly also of that religion), we have problems.

If someone's belief is so shallow that simply not hearing 'the words' on the odd occasion harms them, that's a them problem. Again, just like freedom of religion, it cuts both ways.

 

[Kirkhill]

I seem to recall that there was a time that units paraded on Sunday for Church Parade and there would be a call for the "minority" (Church of Scotland, Church of England, Roman Catholics) to fall out and proceed to their own church.

1924 - Corporal Frank Wood, a Roman Catholic in the RASC , was detailed to escort a CofE group to church and he refused under the misconception that he was being ordered to attend a CofE service.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1924-01-17/debates/bfcd76ee-d282-45ef-8033-5cd7e950893a/CompulsoryChurchParades(CorporalEFWood)

Compulsory Church Parades Abolished in the British Army in 1946.

https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/files/11956555/The_Abolition_of_Compulsory_Church_Parades_in_the_British_Army.pdf

Religion is a personal thing.

Having said that, a lot of traditions have religious origins and traditions matter.

 

[Biomans]

Having said that, a lot of traditions have religious origins and traditions matter.

There's a saying that a Japanese craftsman would build a box by hammering in nails with a rock, because that's what their ancestors did for thousands of years. Show them a hammer, then come back in a few years and the craftsman will have designed a robot to hammer in nails. I'm not remembering the saying perfectly, but the lesson remains the same. Traditions matter.... until they don't.

I'm pretty sure I got that saying from Perun's breakdown of Japan's defense strategy, but I could be wrong:

 

[Retired AF Guy]

All I could find on religion in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms was this:

"Under section 2 of the Charter, Canadians are free to follow the religion of their choice. In addition, they are guaranteed freedom of thought, belief and expression. Since the media are an important means for communicating thoughts and ideas, the Charter protects the right of the press and other media to speak out."

Don't see any mention that Canada is a Christian nation.

The opening preamble to the CA 1982:

CONSTITUTION ACT, 1982

PART I
Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:

Link

 

[Furniture]

If someone's belief is so shallow that simply not hearing 'the words' on the odd occasion harms them, that's a them problem. Again, just like freedom of religion, it cuts both ways.

Sure, get rid of all of it... but that's not what we have done, and it's not likely to happen anytime soon. So as it stands we favour one set of beliefs over all others, for "inclusiveness".

There's a saying that a Japanese craftsman would build a box by hammering in nails with a rock, because that's what their ancestors did for thousands of years. Show them a hammer, then come back in a few years and the craftsman will have designed a robot to hammer in nails. I'm not remembering the saying perfectly, but the lesson remains the same. Traditions matter.... until they don't.

I'm pretty sure I got that saying from Perun's breakdown of Japan's defense strategy, but I could be wrong:

The Japanese had a Shinto priest bless their first F-35... So they keep some traditions alive and well.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

And I'm already getting worked up on why this atheist hates most atheists.

 

[Biomans]

The opening preamble to the CA 1982:


Link

Fair enough. Apparently, this preamble is a widely discussed topic that goes well beyond my understanding. It's history is very contentious.

There's a Wikipedia page on the topic.
Legal papers discussing the topic.
A research paper by a law student on the topic.
Another research paper on the topic.

Parliament also debated removing the reference to God in 1999.

 

[Biomans]

Sure, get rid of all of it... but that's not what we have done, and it's not likely to happen anytime soon. So as it stands we favour one set of beliefs over all others, for "inclusiveness".


The Japanese had a Shinto priest bless their first F-35... So they keep some traditions alive and well.

I'm in full agreement with you, all or none (preferably none since 'all' includes anything anyone wants to do for any reason as long as they claim genuine belief). Old traditions die and new traditions are born, the cycle continues.

 

[brihard]

The opening preamble to the CA 1982:


Link

Fair enough. Apparently, this preamble is a widely discussed topic that goes well beyond my understanding. It's history is very contentious.

There's a Wikipedia page on the topic.
Legal papers discussing the topic.
A research paper by a law student on the topic.
Another research paper on the topic.

Parliament also debated removing the reference to God in 1999.

This has gotten some examination in the courts. If anyone wants to read what the Ontario Superior Court of Justice had to say on this, Allen v Renfrew isn’t particularly long and is very topical to this.

https://canlii.ca/t/1gsbr

 

[dapaterson]

For a military hierarchy specific CMAC ruling on prayers, the 2004 Scott decision is worth a gander.

Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada

Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada

decisions.cmac-cacm.ca

 

[brihard]

For a military hierarchy specific CMAC ruling on prayers, the 2004 Scott decision is worth a gander.

Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada

Court Martial Appeal Court of Canada

decisions.cmac-cacm.ca

Interesting one, thanks for that.