Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[Navy_Pete]

No one has adequately explained why they think that the people filling those roles need to be clergy (or clergy adjacent).

Have you met a social worker?

Chaplains deploy with units, live with the troops, and are part of the team without being part of the CoC. Social workers have office hours somewhere on a base that need an appointment. Very different roles, and I think both have their place. If the chaplains can also do a religious service occasionally that helps some people, why not? I think there was actually some kind of option for an agnostic/atheist chaplain for what it's worth, doing the same kind of thing as chaplains, but they can't really figure out who would feed into it.

I don't think we need to overthink this; chaplains have a role, social workers have a role. The God squad only actually spends a very small portion of their time on the God part, and spends the bulk of it in direct support. Sometimes that's just a friendly face to talk with over coffee, sometimes it's the person you call because someone has a serious issue that you need help with.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I've heard people say this, but I still gotta ask why?

If we hired on an equal number of social workers, and put them in the same positions that were formerly held by Chaplains, having them do the same roles that the Chaplains currently do (minus the explicitly religious stuff of course), what's the difference here in terms of support for the troops, etc?

No one has adequately explained why they think that the people filling those roles need to be clergy (or clergy adjacent).

Chaplains exist for the troops not the government. They are there for spiritual support, for the living and for the fallen. Specifically when we are serving in war or overseas where the troops cannot find that support the same way they could back in Canada.

Its a easy trade to point at in peace time and go why have this? But when bodies start piling up, funeral services need to be done (ceremonies, planning, contacting the family, hosting their funeral in their chosen religion, providing comfort for their comrades, etc.) and religious matters need to be attended to/addressed well at war, do you want a social worker to do it, or a Chaplain to handle it?

We have also gotten used to having the fallen repatriated to Canada, historically that wasn’t a thing and if a war gets serious enough burials in location/at sea will happen again.

Just because in peace time a lot of their services mirror social workers, doesn’t mean they are the equivalent in wartime.

Again I am not a religious person, that doesn’t mean I don’t see the value in their service.

 

[btrudy]

Have you met a social worker?

Chaplains deploy with units, live with the troops, and are part of the team without being part of the CoC. Social workers have office hours somewhere on a base that need an appointment. Very different roles, and I think both have their place. If the chaplains can also do a religious service occasionally that helps some people, why not? I think there was actually some kind of option for an agnostic/atheist chaplain for what it's worth, doing the same kind of thing as chaplains, but they can't really figure out who would feed into it.

I don't think we need to overthink this; chaplains have a role, social workers have a role. The God squad only actually spends a very small portion of their time on the God part, and spends the bulk of it in direct support. Sometimes that's just a friendly face to talk with over coffee, sometimes it's the person you call because someone has a serious issue that you need help with.

Because that's the current structure of how we employ social workers.

Which wouldn't be how they'd all be employed if we engaged in a "replace padres with social workers" program.

The God squad indeed only spends a very small portion of their time on the God part, and that's the only part that couldn't be replicated by a non-religious replacement. A friendly face over coffee can currently be a padre, but it can also be a social worker. And there'll be some added benefit that the social worker won't have baggage associated with their religious affiliation that may cause some folks with religious based trauma to want to avoid them.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Because that's the current structure of how we employ social workers.

Which wouldn't be how they'd all be employed if we engaged in a "replace padres with social workers" program.

The God squad indeed only spends a very small portion of their time on the God part, and that's the only part that couldn't be replicated by a non-religious replacement. A friendly face over coffee can currently be a padre, but it can also be a social worker. And there'll be some added benefit that the social worker won't have baggage associated with their religious affiliation that may cause some folks with religious based trauma to want to avoid them.

YMMV, but social workers training is very different, and they are more passive in how they go about people. As has been pointed out numerous times by others, they are also massively short staffed already. I had a 4 month wait to get a social worker for burnout (via a civi support side), and frankly wasn't any actual use, and in retrospect I probably would have been better served by a few weeks of stress leave from an MD (via sick parade I guess because routine appointments are also 3+ months).

Padres are much more active in people's lives, and do a much better job at engaging the CoC in a useful way (and going over the local CoC if needed).

This direction is to comply with a very specific legal requirement from a court case, but should in no way mean that the God squad doesn't have it's place. I want nothing to do with religion personally, but wouldn't hesitate to talk to a padre because they never bring religion into it unless you ask them to.

 

[markppcli]

I think the argument being made is that if you freed up the salary being paid to chaplains, you could the. Hire more social workers / actual mental health professionals.

 

[Good2Golf]

Would social workers deploy with CAF personnel in combat zones, or wait until they return to Canada to assist them?

 

[dapaterson]

Would social workers deploy with CAF personnel in combat zones, or wait until they return to Canada to assist them?

We already have uniformed, deployable social workers in the CAF...

 

[daftandbarmy]

We already have uniformed, deployable social workers in the CAF...

 

[Booter]

i was under the impression there are reporting requirements that exist with social workers that don’t exist with the chaplains.

There’s also a stigma with meeting with social workers- or there used to be.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Do social workers perform Last Rights or Church Parades? How qualified are social workers to discuss matters and contradictions of faith?

 

[Navy_Pete]

We already have uniformed, deployable social workers in the CAF...

We had them do a visit with CJOC during a deployment. Other than ticking a box for post deployment, they were not actually useful for day to day type issues.

May be more suited for something like a specific event as a kind of trauma tiger team, but (thankfully) wasn't personally involved in anything major like that so can't say either way.

I think they have their specific role, which they do well, but trying to get them to do something that is broadly similar might be like asking a heavy diesel mechanic that works on tanks to fix an aircraft turbine. They are kind of related skills, but need much different skills and experience to do each properly. Chaplains are based around being directly part of the community, where social workers are always a neutral, external third party so doesn't seem compatible.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I know everyone else in the room (myself, ER nurse x2, and doc) were happy to have the Chaplain there when we were FFEing human remains before flight. They chipped in with lifting body bags, and were the best person to hand the phone that started ringing in the deceased pocket to.

I don't know if a social worker would have fit in to that situation, the Chaplain did.

 

[GR66]

I know everyone else in the room (myself, ER nurse x2, and doc) were happy to have the Chaplain there when we were FFEing human remains before flight. They chipped in with lifting body bags, and were the best person to hand the phone that started ringing in the deceased pocket to.

I don't know if a social worker would have fit in to that situation, the Chaplain did.

Like most things in life it's not an either/or situation with regards to Chaplains and Social Workers. Both have their roles.

WRT the original issue of the directive to avoid religious elements from public Remembrance ceremonies, as other have pointed out it is for legal reasons. While I don't personally mind the religious aspects being included I understand the reasoning. I also don't think that by eliminating religious content from the ceremonies you will negatively impact anyone's faith or ability to whole heartedly honour the sacrifices of the fallen we are there to remember.

 

[lenaitch]

i was under the impression there are reporting requirements that exist with social workers that don’t exist with the chaplains.

There’s also a stigma with meeting with social workers- or there used to be.

As an outsider, that was one of my first thoughts as well. Context and content of a conversation with a member of the clergy have legal and ecclesiastical components in the broader world, but I wonder how that it is interpreted in a chain of command environment, as well as how it compares to the expectations and obligations of a social worker.

In civi-land, social workers are regulated by the provinces. In Ontario, there is a professional College that is responsible for things like educational standards, accreditation, ethics and standards, as well as discipline.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm very old and my experience is dated, but, it seems to me that it matters a lot how three people see that Chaplain: the soldier, the CO and the Chaplain, herself or himself.

In my case and in my, personal experience, I found that most soldiers trusted most chaplains to listen to them and to help them with a wide range of problems.

As a CO I also trusted my chaplains (I had two) to tell me when they perceived that I (or one/ some of my soldiers) had a problem. My chaplains had roughly the same sort of 1 on 1 private access to me as did the RSM, and for similar reasons. I knew that they, like me, wandered about a lot and I knew that they heard thing - quite often different from what I heard either from the"chain" our from "one-on-one" chats with soldiers. I can recall one tinkle when the RSM and one of the chaplains came in to warn me a bout a problem that the chaplain was "sensing"but which my old friend the RSM was not picking up from there NCOs. It turned out to be potentially serious but we defused it early. The point is that the RSM also trusted the chaplain.

Finally, the chaplains, themselves: in my experience they do see themselves as supporters, counsellors and friends to the soldiers and as advisors to the CO. I don't think social workers see themselves in quite the same way, nor did I. I was glad that the CF had professional social workers and I valued their support; I was also damned glad we had good chaplains.

 

[OldSolduer]

Chaplains are an essential part of military organizations. I have been fortunate to know a few and they are first class human beings. I have had good experiences with padres and only one interaction with a social worker so I cannot judge their competencies.

The Padre and the RSM in a unit will interact with each other on matters of mutual concern - like when a soldier's health or welfare is at stake, or where the soldier has lost a loved one. Its not all about God, Allah or whatever deity they represent.

 

[markppcli]

Would social workers deploy with CAF personnel in combat zones, or wait until they return to Canada to assist them?

If they’re CAF members yes:

Social Work Officer | Canadian Armed Forces

Social Work Officers provide social work services to support Canadian Armed Forces members and their families.

forces.ca

Do social workers perform Last Rights or Church Parades? How qualified are social workers to discuss matters and contradictions of faith?

Why on earth does that matter? We don’t do church parades. I could flip this around and ask if you really think a catholic priest is qualified to counsel you on parenting issues or your marriage. In my 17 ish years in the military I’ve met … maybe three people who were regular attendees of religious services, and even then that’s a stretch. It’s simply not the norm, and quite frankly why is your employer providing you with anything to do with your faith.

 

[Furniture]

If they’re CAF members yes:

Social Work Officer | Canadian Armed Forces

Social Work Officers provide social work services to support Canadian Armed Forces members and their families.

forces.ca

Why on earth does that matter? We don’t do church parades. I could flip this around and ask if you really think a catholic priest is qualified to counsel you on parenting issues or your marriage. In my 17 ish years in the military I’ve met … maybe three people who were regular attendees of religious services, and even then that’s a stretch. It’s simply not the norm, and quite frankly why is your employer providing you with anything to do with your faith.

Because your employer is asking you do potentially die.

In nearly 23 years I've met less than a dozen people who were opposed to speaking to a padre, and most of them held pretty bigoted views about people who practiced religion. I don't think the CAF should be basing personnel and policy decisions on people's bigotry, regardless of whether it's imaginary friend based, or otherwise.

 

[mariomike]

, and quite frankly why is your employer providing you with anything to do with your faith.

Not all that unusual.

We always have had a departmental chaplain where I worked. Long before the staff psychologists came along.

I think chaplains are pretty common in emergency services. At least, they used to be.

9/11's first casualty Mychal Judge is a legend — can he be a saint? | Mike Kelly

The Rev. Mychal Judge, the FDNY chaplain who died in the Sept. 11 terror attacks, has been nominated for a sainthood in the Roman Catholic church.

www.northjersey.com

The Rev. Mychal Judge, the FDNY chaplain who died in the Sept. 11 terror attacks,

‎

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If they’re CAF members yes:

Social Work Officer | Canadian Armed Forces

Social Work Officers provide social work services to support Canadian Armed Forces members and their families.

forces.ca

Why on earth does that matter? We don’t do church parades. I could flip this around and ask if you really think a catholic priest is qualified to counsel you on parenting issues or your marriage. In my 17 ish years in the military I’ve met … maybe three people who were regular attendees of religious services, and even then that’s a stretch. It’s simply not the norm, and quite frankly why is your employer providing you with anything to do with your faith.

Last post for me here. I suppose if we make heathen a priority characteristic for recruitment, we can do away with Padres. And religious denomination on dog tags. Or Last Rights, nobody wants or needs those. I am not a religious person, but study under the Great Architect. However, I'm not so established that I ignore those that are religious and their particular needs. Know your soldiers and promote their welfare. If I was killed on duty, I would want a Padre to be with the notification group, to be there when my RC wife was told. Not a social worker.

That is my stance and always has been. At 70, I'm not changing. You follow your own conscience. Carry on with the discussion, but I have nothing else to say about it.