Do the Russians hate us? Split off fm Caucasus In Crisis - Georgia and Russia

[stegner]

I think Turkey has a better relationship with Russia and does not have to worry about this.  Funny when ever Russia intervenes on its borders the West views this as an attempt to take over the world.  How often does the U.S intervene in places that is nowhere near its borders?  Even Canada with Kosovo and Afghanistan.  Funny how the Canadian assistance in the invasion of Afghanistan was not viewed as something sinister, but when the Soviets did the exact same the west freaked out.  The Russians are entitled to play in the area of the sandbox and the west needs to get over this.   

 

[George Wallace]

I think Turkey has a better relationship with Russia and does not have to worry about this.  Funny when ever Russia intervenes on its borders the West views this as an attempt to take over the world.  How often does the U.S intervene in places that is nowhere near its borders?  Even Canada with Kosovo and Afghanistan.  Funny how the Canadian assistance in the invasion of Afghanistan was not viewed as something sinister, but when the Soviets did the exact same the west freaked out.  The Russians are entitled to play in the area of the sandbox and the west needs to get over this.   

Do you realize what this sounds like?  Very similar to what Dr Granatstein just recently wrote about.  ummmmmm?

 

[stegner]

Do you realize what this sounds like?  Very similar to what Dr Granatstein just recently wrote about.  ummmmmm?

Come again?

 

[George Wallace]

Come again?

:     

What unites all the new peace groups is their anti-Americanism. Canada is following the Bush agenda; Canada should get out of the American war in Afghanistan; Canada should halt its defence integration with the Yanks. Led by Barlow, Byers and Staples, the refrain is automatic and predictable. If Barack Obama wins the U.S. election, it will be interesting to see how the peace movement changes gears to denounce the new administration — of course, if McCain wins, the gears won’t need to be changed.

Your posts seem to be falling into this category.

 

[stegner]

Your posts seem to be falling into this category.

I would disagree-my post has nothing to do with the peace movement.  I never said Canada should not be in Afghanistan, all I am saying is that Canada through a hissy fit when the Russians invaded in 1979 and that the west can be at times quite hypocritical.  We are allowed intervene but noone else can.  It not that I am anti-American.  I understand that the U.S pursues a self-interested foreign policy and so does Russia.  My objections is the amount of anti-Russian sentiment.  I am thankful for the Russians, as if it were not for them and their tens of million war dead the Nazi's would have prevailed and the world would look a whole lot different.  Occasionally they get things right. 

 

[George Wallace]

................  My objections is the amount of anti-Russian sentiment.    

Sorry.  Sixty years of Cold War really makes it hard to call an old enemy, and possibly still an enemy, anything other.  Perhaps you can tell us how Pro-American the Russians are?

 

[stegner]

Perhaps you can tell us how Pro-American the Russians are?

What?

 

[Rodders]

I think Turkey has a better relationship with Russia and does not have to worry about this.  Funny when ever Russia intervenes on its borders the West views this as an attempt to take over the world.  How often does the U.S intervene in places that is nowhere near its borders?  Even Canada with Kosovo and Afghanistan.  Funny how the Canadian assistance in the invasion of Afghanistan was not viewed as something sinister, but when the Soviets did the exact same the west freaked out.  The Russians are entitled to play in the area of the sandbox and the west needs to get over this.   

I think he does make one fair point though, and that is this perception that some have that Russia has some grand scheme to take over Europe.
No country (Russia, Canada, the US) has it's foreign policy based in altruism. Russia, just like the US operates abroad largely in furtherance of it's own goals, and quite often at the detriment of others. I'm not picking a side here, but I think it a little biased to completely view one country's actions (whichever country you wish) as totally and consistently acceptable, while condemning all the actions of another.

There are grounds to criticise the behaviour/actions of every nation. But I don't think we should jump to assumptions that may be baseless.

 

[George Wallace]

What?

Come on.  You are complaining how "anti-Russian" the West is.  So?  I asked you how pro-American the Russians were?  Seems fair, that you present your case, and answer.

 

[stegner]

Come on.  You are complaining how "anti-Russian" the West is.  So?  I asked you how pro-American the Russians were?  Seems fair, that you present your case, and answer.

Why do you equate the west with America?  Surely they are not the same? I think the immense Russian demand for western luxury goods and other cultural aspects answers your question.  Russians don't hate the west as much as you think they do.       

 

[Rodders]

Why do you equate the west with America?  Surely they are not the same? I think the immense Russian demand for western luxury goods and other cultural aspects answers your question.  Russians don't hate the west as much as you think they do.       

Okay, I'm not trying to be Stegner's advocate  , but as far as the Russian people are concerned, I can vouch for this. I am in regular (daily) communication with many people throughout Russia, and while they all share a strong patriotism for their country, I have never detected anything that could be described as anti-western, or much in the way of anti-American sentiment.
Western Europeans have a different view of the world than do we North Americans, and I also don't think that the typical Russian's opinion of us is one of dislike or contempt.

 

[George Wallace]

Why do you equate the west with America?  Surely they are not the same? I think the immense Russian demand for western luxury goods and other cultural aspects answers your question.  Russians don't hate the west as much as you think they do.         

Actually......No that doesn't answer my question.  

Why do you equate the west with America?

If you prefer; The West.  The immense desire for Western luxury goods proves nothing.  It is much the same as equating our relations to China to the purchase of "Made in China" goods.  I wouldn't equate the West's relations with China as being that 'trusting' and amicable.

Perhaps you can tell us how friendly Putin's recreating the Cuba Missile Crisis of the 1960's as being just an amicable gesture on his part towards the West/America?

I have not seen proof that Russia doesn't hate the West as you seem to claim.  This whole crisis in the Caucasus has shown a fair amount of 'sabre rattling' on Russia's part.

 

[stegner]

Actually......No that doesn't answer my question. 

Then I am not sure what you were trying to ask.

Perhaps you can tell us how friendly Putin's recreating the Cuba Missile Crisis of the 1960's as being just an amicable gesture on his part towards the West/America?

As opposed to Bush ripping up the ABM?  Or placing missiles in Eastern Europe?  Or recognizing Kosovo?

If you prefer; The West.  The immense desire for Western luxury goods proves nothing.  It is much the same as equating our relations to China to the purchase of "Made in China" goods.

No it is completely different.  The 'made in China' goods are not actually Chinese goods, they are western goods that happen to be produced in China because of the low wages.  They are just produced in China.  They are for the most part western designs.  A true cultural exchange would be if west was actually exporting Chinese culture artifacts not Chinese ripoffs of western goods.  The Russian demand for western cultural goods is much different in that they represent western cultural symbols (i.e. Cartier, Mercedes etc.)  The acquisition of these symbols would not be tolerated, let alone celebrated, in a society with rampant ant-Western sentiment.  Consider the Freedom Fry debacle in the U.S several years back.  I think Bill O'Reilly is still continuing his boycott of France.  In any event I believe that we are getting really really off-topic here.    Do the mods want to create a separate  thread to something like: Do the Russians hate us?

 

[George Wallace]

It is not.  Both the Russians and the West are in demand for goods.  It just so happens that the goods that the Russians are demanding are on a little higher level of "prestige" and value than those the West is demanding.  Both are "consumers".  That has no actual relevance to the 'Politics' they hold.  It has been over seventy years since they were last Allies.  There is a lot of animosity on both sides. 

I have seen a lot of smiling faces in my time, and know that behind the smile there often was nothing.  Just like a salesman; it was fake. 

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . Do the Russians hate us?

Who cares if they hate us or not?  Or more specifically define what you call "hate".  Jealousy of our standard of living?  Dislike of our political system?  Racial or cultural bigotry?  Or is it reciprocal animosity because they think we "hate" them?  And who are "the Russians"?  Are you making a blanket statement to include the majority of the population or are you referring to the government.  You may get very different answers depending on the "Russian" you talk to.  I would guess that it is better to say that they do not trust us, just as the "west" does not trust them.  My mistrust of them is based on a belief that they are more likely to use military action (or threat of miltary action) to achieve their aims (foreign and domestic) than most "western" nations.  But then, I'm probably a relic of the Cold War.  For some on these means, the 40 odd years spent watching them across borders is still a vivid memory as it probably is for some Russians.

So, who cares if they hate us or not?  As long as they buy our goods and make available their goods to us as needed and do not interfere in our legitimate relationships with other nations, it really doesn't matter whether they like us or not.  And the same criteria can be applied in reverse.  However, let's not turn our backs on them.

 

[retiredgrunt45]

I think what it boils down to is old habits die hard. After staring down the gun barrels of the former Soviet Union for 50+ years, it hard for some people, especially of our generation to not think ill of Russia when she flexes her muscles on the world stage.

It has nothing to do with the Russion people, but everything to do with its government, a big difference.

 

[tomahawk6]

The Russian leadership doesnt care what we in the west think of their actions. Nor should we care what they think if we have to act in our national interest. They dont get to vote in our elections. Russian goals are historic in nature and reveal a very xenophobic streak in the people as a whole. It all about warm water ports and secure borders.They have been invaded throughout their history so the goal is to keep the frontiers as far from Moscow as possible.The former republics were merely shields for Mother Russia.

Today we see a resurgent Russia intent on becoming a player in the world stage. They will use their military and economic power to assert their interests. Their economic power is their energy resources and they are in a position to shut off the gas/oil pipeline to Europe anytime they want. As weak kneed as the Europeans are they may dance to Putins tune to keep the lights on and heat in their homes. Of course if that doesnt work there are always the tanks.I think Putins goal is to become a hegamon - to control the policies of his neighbors. Whats particurly dangerous is our own reluctance to employ military power to force Russia to modify its aims.We will see more Georgia's before we get the backbone to face them down.Kruschev blinked and Putin will too if he is challenged.If we wait until Russia has rebuilt its military then we will be in for real trouble.

 

[Flanker]

Putins goal is to become a hegamon - to control the policies of his neighbors. Whats particurly dangerous is our own reluctance to employ military power to force Russia to modify its aims.If we wait until Russia has rebuilt its military then we will be in for real trouble.

Looks like a threat? Isn't it?
Preventing one from becoming hegamon was always a good excuse to become a hegamon. Right?
Calm down dude.
Contrary to US, Russia has legitimate right to protect its borders, citizens and insure stability.

 

[aesop081]

Contrary to US, Russia has legitimate right to protect its borders and insure stability.

 

???

Can you explain that one further please.....it doesnt make sense.

 

[Flanker]

Can you explain that one further please.....it doesnt make sense.

Yes it does.
Wars and conflicts at Russia's borders have an imminent impact on Russia's economy and security.
This is nothing to do with fiction American interests that arise sporadically everywhere in the world.

In the case of the last Ossetia-Georgia war, Russia had a UN peacekeeper mandate and is a warrant of the stability in the region.
And this is for a reason. 90% of South Ossetians are Russian citizens. At the time of conflict, Russia received up to 50 000 refugees from this region.
So it is silly to think Russia will not intervene to restablish peace after Georgian invasion.