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Do the Russians hate us? Split off fm Caucasus In Crisis - Georgia and Russia

Flanker said:
Wars and conflicts at Russia's borders have an imminent impact on Russia's economy and security.

The same can be said about wars far from US shores. The same can be said about wars far from Canadian shores.

Flanker said:
So it is silly to think Russia will not intervene to restablish peace after Georgian invasion.

It may be silly but your argument that Russian has a right to protect its borders and the US does not is ROTL.
 
But a line tends to be drawn before invasion.  You know, going full force into a nation tends to be frowned upon.
Russians went way into Georgia in places.  A peacekeeping forces job is to stop hostilities and split the two sides, not send armour divisions deep into the country that they don't likes' territory.
Both groups were throwing stones, and yet they took no disciplinary action with SO.

Whether or not I think they were "Peacekeeping" or not, is irrelevent.  I just don't think either side was/is "right".
 
Koenigsegg said:
But a line tends to be drawn before invasion.  You know, going full force into a nation tends to be frowned upon.
Russians went way into Georgia in places.  A peacekeeping forces job is to stop hostilities and split the two sides, not send armour divisions deep into the country that they don't likes' territory.
Both groups were throwing stones, and yet they took no disciplinary action with SO.

Whether or not I think they were "Peacekeeping" or not, is irrelevent.  I just don't think either side was/is "right".

Let's put it simple and clear.
Georgia started this war.
Russia had a peacekeeper mandate.
Russia reestablished peace.

Some localised intervention on Georgian territory (radars,air bases) were necessary to effectively suppress Georgian military infrastracture and quickly prevent any further fighting.
Nothing more.

 
Flanker said:
Georgia started this war.


Its not that simple , in any way , shape or form


Russia reestablished peace.

No, they did not.

Nothing more.

Theres plenty more to this and Russia was far from altruistic in this. You live in a dream world you need to wake up from. Russia has never, and will never do anything that is not in its own best interest.
 
CDN Aviator said:
No, they did not.

Yes they did.

Theres plenty more to this and Russia was far from altruistic in this. You live in a dream world you need to wake up from. Russia has never, and will never do anything that is not in its own best interest.

Is it surprising?
At this time the Russia's interest is to keep status quo and peace as it has been for last 20 years.
No war, no refugees, no ethnic conflicts, no criminality.
Is it altruistic? Not really.
 
What status quo?
They handed out Russian passports to non-russians.  And they are using that as a defence for what they did when crap went down.
They changed the "status quo" to suit themselves.

The Georgians are threatening more violence, which the Russians will gladly meet with a totally disproportionate retaliation.  I'm still hearing about violence in the news too.
 
Koenigsegg said:
What status quo?

After Georgia started and lost war against Ossetia in 1992, UN authorized Russia to put its peacekeeps in there.
This prevented hostilities for 15 years or so.

Ossetia is not a part of Georgia. It is de facto independent since 1991.




 
Koenigsegg said:
But a line tends to be drawn before invasion.  You know, going full force into a nation tends to be frowned upon.
Russians went way into Georgia in places.  A peacekeeping forces job is to stop hostilities and split the two sides, not send armour divisions deep into the country that they don't likes' territory.
Both groups were throwing stones, and yet they took no disciplinary action with SO.

Whether or not I think they were "Peacekeeping" or not, is irrelevent.  I just don't think either side was/is "right".
I disagree with most of this post (but not all). Yes, going full force into a nation tends to be frowned upon.  Having said that, the line was drawn (and crossed) before Russia invaded Georgia (which includes South Ossetia, according to the international community).  Now, suppose for a moment that we take South Ossetia out of the Georgian equation.  Russia went deep, very deep, not just to "re-establish" the line, but to make sure that Georgia would never EVER do such a thing again.  Georgian military infrastructure, including barracks, ships and so forth, were destroyed by the Russians.  To me this makes perfect sense, and I wish that we did this in Iraq in early 1991.  If we did that, then the whole Iraq (and Suddam) situation would have been settled, once and for all, by about 1995.  Here it is, 2008, and we are finally seeing Victory in Iraq.
Before I'm accused of being a Russian sympathiser, I'm just stating a few things. First, Russia's entry into the Georgian/South Ossetian conflict met the demands of Jus ad Bellum. Second, the precedent was set (legally and all that) in Kosovo in 1999.  Third, there is no way on God's Green Earth that the USA would tolerate, say, a Cuban invasion of Puerto Rico, certainly not part of the US, but it may as well be, no?  We all have our spheres, and South Ossetia was (and is) certainly a Russian Sphere.
Finally, Russia doesn't view things the same way as we, going in with surgical strikes, etc.  They use their motor rifle divisions rather well, and the fact that they don't care too much about international opinion means that they can act quite quickly when Moscow decides on action.
 
Flanker said:
After Georgia started and lost war against Ossetia in 1992, UN authorized Russia to put its peacekeeps in there.
This prevented hostilities for 15 years or so.

Ossetia is not a part of Georgia. It is de facto independent since 1991.
Well, technically, you're partly wrong.  North Ossetia is not part of Georgia. South Ossetia, however, is, according to the international community.  Still, that point is moot.  Kosovo was part of Serbia (until recently, anyway)...
 
I agree with you Mortarman Rockpainter.
I can't really say much more than that.  I don't think either side is innocent, nor right.  I don't like what either of the  countries did.  But yes, the Russians dealt with the problem in the way they know how, and they seem good at it.  You can't expect every country to do things our way.  I just don't like the steamroller method, but again, it works for them.

I do agree though.
 
Flanker said:
After Georgia started and lost war against Ossetia in 1992, UN authorized Russia to put its peacekeeps in there.
This prevented hostilities for 15 years or so.

Ossetia is not a part of Georgia. It is de facto independent since 1991.

But, Russia stuck their nose in it, and altered the status quo as it was in the beginning by giving people Russian Passports.  By doing that, wouldn't it seem like  S. Ossetia was favoured by the Russians?

And Mortarman got the rest.
 
Koenigsegg said:
But, Russia stuck their nose in it, and altered the status quo as it was in the beginning by giving people Russian Passports.  By doing that, wouldn't it seem like  S. Ossetia was favoured by the Russians?
Given that Russia isn't too fond of Georgia in the first place, giving South Ossetians Russian Passports was "the natural" thing to do.  The whole area is a mess, I admit...
 
Yes.  I concur.  Natural for Russia, given their situation, wants and dislikes.  But not cool none the less.
May as well have annexed the little place.  At least in that way, everyone would know their intentions for the get-go.  haha
(No where near that simple and trouble free, I know.  In fact it may have never had a snowballs chance in hell, but I'm just putting it out there.)
 
Koenigsegg said:
But, Russia stuck their nose in it, and altered the status quo as it was in the beginning by giving people Russian Passports.  By doing that, wouldn't it seem like  S. Ossetia was favoured by the Russians?

After the dissolution of Soviet Union in 1991, all former Soviet republics proclaimed independance, their own citizenship and so far.
At that time Russia acted as succsessor and took all debts and responsibilities of USSR.
As a consequence there were law saying that any person born in USSR can automatically get Russian citizenship if he/she had not got any other citizenship.
The main reason for this was to protect Russian and other discriminated minorities living in the "new" independent states.
As an example, Baltic states like Estonia etc. prevented Russian-speaking people from getting their citizenship unless they pass national language exam.

Ossetia proclaimed independance from Georgia at the same time (or even before) Georgia separated from the Soviet Union.
In 1920s Ossetia was included in the Soviet Georgia as national autonomy, but this was a pure formality as republican borders were absolutely transparent and meaningless in the Soviet Union.

De facto, since the Soviet Union, Ossetia has never wanted and  has never been a part of Georgia.
 
But the neither the international community nor Georgia recognized that.  So as wrong as it may be...It's not as easy as you make it sound.
 
Koenigsegg said:
But the neither the international community nor Georgia recognized that.  So as wrong as it may be...It's not as easy as you make it sound.

Yes, I agree.
As you may see Russia also does not recognize Ossetia as a country and do not accept Ossetia as a new federal region.
All this in spite of many requests and referendums from the Ossetian side.

So it is still a territory with an undefined status under a peacekeeper mandate of UN where Russia is a peace warrant.

PS. There was a similar situation with Adjaria.
This is another Georgian republic that tried to separate from Georgia.
In that case, this was Turkey, as an adjacent state, which acted as a peace warrant.
 
Visit Russia before Russia visits you:

Russia is fighting a new Cold War with banks and pipelines, not tanks and warplanes

By Edward Lucas
Last Updated: 1:01pm BST 29/08/2008
Page 1 of 3

In classical mythology, Georgia was the land where the Argonauts had to harness bulls with bronze hooves to win the Golden Fleece. Modern Georgia is the source of a treasure scarcely less precious: oil and gas from central Asia and the Caspian, piped along the only east-west energy corridor that Russia does not control. But whereas Jason and his comrades triumphed, our quest has ended in humiliating failure. 
As the occupying power in Georgia, Russia can close or destroy those pipelines whenever it wishes. The only country in the region that even came close to sharing Western values, one vital for our energy security, has been humiliatingly defeated and dismembered.


As politicians and voters in the free world return from their holidays, two big questions require answering. What happens next? And how do we stop it?
Decoding the Kremlin’s precise intentions is as tricky now as it was in the days of Kremlinology – a discipline as archaic as Morse code. But the outlines are clear.
Russia wants to recreate a “lite” version of the Soviet empire in eastern Europe and to neutralise the rest of the continent. Unlike the old Cold War, military action is a last resort: for the most part, it is banks and pipelines, not tanks and warplanes, that are doing the dirty work.
This may sound strange, given what has happened in Georgia. But it is vital to realise that this was not the beginning of a new Russian push, but part of something that began in the mid-1990s.
Russia has nobbled Belarus – the only other country, apart from the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, that is ready to recognise the new statelets of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. It props up the narco-state of Tajikistan, cossets the dictatorship in Uzbekistan and woos the benighted despots of Turkmenistan. It has a cautious alliance with China, in the form of the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation, an outfit dedicated to fighting “extremism, terrorism and separatism” (although this last “-ism” has evidently been forgotten when it comes to Georgia).
It has stitched up energy deals in North Africa; it flirts with Iran and sells weapons to Hugo Chavez, the America-hating windbag who runs Venezuela. And by using energy diplomacy and divide-and-rule tactics, it is stitching up Europe country by country, from Cyprus to the Netherlands.
And it works. Over the crisis in Georgia, Europe has shown astonishing softness. The leaders of the EU have been all but invisible.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/08/29/do2905.xml


 
An article in the Weekly Standard: Don't Cry for Russia
The world's unlikeliest "victim."
by Cathy Young
09/01/2008, Volume 013, Issue 47



As Russian tanks rumble through Georgia, and Western pundits talk of the "new Cold War," one trope keeps reappearing in their discourse. Russia's newly aggressive stance, we are told, is partly our fault: After the fall of Communism, the West went out of its way to humiliate and trample Russia instead of treating it as a partner--and now, an oil-powered Russia is striking back.

"Russia's litany of indignities dates to the early 1990s when the Soviet empire collapsed," Samantha Power, a professor at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and former Barack Obama adviser, wrote in Time. "A bipolar universe gave way to a world in which the 'sole superpower' boasted about how it had 'won' the Cold War. Russia was forced to swallow the news that NATO would grant membership to former client states in Eastern Europe, along with former Soviet republics." This theme, particularly NATO expansion as an affront to Russia, has been echoed by many others, from Tom Friedman in the New York Times to Pat Buchanan in his syndicated column.

By contrast, few of the Russians who lament their country's slide into belligerent authoritarianism under Vladimir Putin blame it on "humiliation" by the West. "Russia humiliated itself," says human rights grande dame Elena Bonner, widow of the dissident and scientist Andrei Sakharov. "It spent 70-plus years building Communism, and reaped the results."

Victor Davidoff, an independent Moscow journalist and former Soviet political prisoner who became a U.S. citizen but returned to Russia in 1992, told me in an email exchange that he was "nauseated" by talk of Russia's humiliation. "How did the West humiliate Russia? Gave it money--much of which was pilfered? Sent humanitarian aid? Paid for the dismantling of missiles? Invested in Russian businesses? The Germans don't consider the Marshall Plan a humiliation; why is aid to Russia humiliating?"

Davidoff's mention of the Marshall Plan is fitting, since Samantha Power explicitly contrasts the West's treatment of post-Cold War Russia with that of post-World War II Germany: "On occasion, Western countries have consciously avoided humiliating militant powers.  .  .  . Having neutered Germany following World War I, the Allies showed West Germany respect after World War II, investing heavily in its economy and absorbing the country into NATO."

This is a breathtaking inversion of reality. If ever a defeated power was "humiliated," it was postwar Germany--forced to endure several years of occupation, de-Nazification, a massive education campaign promoting the idea of collective German guilt for Nazi crimes, reparations to countries affected by the war, and loss of territories accompanied by the expulsion of millions of Germans. There was also the small matter of the country being split in half.

The contrast with the West's treatment of post-Communist Russia is stark indeed. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, the United States and Europe eagerly embraced Russia's young democracy. Western economic aid to Russia totaled $55 billion from 1992 to 1997 (not counting private charity). While some aid was conditioned on the continuation of market-oriented economic reforms, none of it was tied to political demands for a formal condemnation of the Soviet legacy. Russia was not required to dump the Lenin mummy from the mausoleum in Moscow, to put former party apparatchiks or KGB goons on trial, or to restrict their ability to hold government posts and run for public office. Nor was it forced to pay reparations to victims of Soviet aggression, or surrender territories such as the Kuril Islands, seized from Japan after World War II.

What about the much-maligned NATO expansion? Friedman asserts that it was particularly galling to Russians since Russia itself was disinvited from joining NATO, sending a message that it was still seen as an adversary. Ira Straus, founder of the Committee on Eastern Europe and Russia in NATO, tells a more complex story in a paper for a 1997 George Washington University conference on Russia and NATO.

Russia first expressed cautious interest in NATO membership in 1991, when NATO was not prepared to admit any Eastern Bloc countries. By the time the admission of former Communist states was seriously considered, Boris Yeltsin's administration was already backing away from its embrace of the West, mainly as a result of pressure from the neo-Communists and nationalists who scored victories in the 1993 and 1995 Duma elections. In 1995, pro-Western foreign minister Andrei Kozyrev was replaced by Evgeny Primakov, who, Straus writes, emphasized "multipolarism" and (foreshadowing the leitmotif of the Putin-era Russian political elite) criticized "American attempts at unipolar domination of the world through NATO."

Initially, supporters of NATO expansion envisioned Russia's eventual inclusion, and Yeltsin seemed receptive to the idea. But NATO enlargement soon became a bone of contention. Straus writes that in the mid-1990s, the United States often misinterpreted Russia's opposition to the fast-track admission of smaller states into a Russia-less NATO as opposition to expansion per se. Russia in turn sent many conflicting signals. Above all, it was clearly unwilling to commit to a broad acceptance of NATO strategic policy, one of the main criteria for membership set in the organization's 1995 "Study on NATO Enlargement." This was a serious hurdle, since NATO operates by consensus, giving every member country a de facto veto over the alliance's policies.

Samantha Power dismisses Russia's inclusion in NATO's 1994 "Partnership for Peace" as "largely symbolic." Yet the partnership's framework document not only provided for extensive military cooperation but gave each member guarantees that it would be consulted by NATO about any perceived threats to its security. Straus wrote, in 1997, that Russia "held back from full participation" in the Partnership "due to domestic pressures [and] to suspicions of NATO." This was followed by the creation of the NATO-Russia Council in 2002. Its work included not only joint anti-terrorism efforts but programs that provided job training and other assistance to discharged military personnel in Russia.

Bonner believes that, far from treating Russia as an enemy out of habit, Western politicians and pundits have been too prone to "wishful thinking" in treating it as an ally in the war on terror. Says Bonner, "Russia wasn't even treated as an equal partner but a favored child who was petted and given treats."

One such treat was an invitation to join the G7 group of industrial democracies in 1998. Despite Russia's dubious qualifications for membership in a club based on such criteria as economic performance, political stability, and low level of corruption, the group became the G8. In January 2006, after Putin had crushed his independent media and political opposition, Russia actually assumed chairmanship of the G8--just as its Freedom House ranking slipped from "partly free" to "not free." (According to a December 2005 National Public Radio report, some eternal optimists hoped that giving Russia G8 leadership would encourage liberal tendencies.)

Much Western hand-wringing over Russia's wounded pride seems to accept the premise that Russia is entitled to dominate its smaller neighbors and to have its ego coddled as no other former empire has had. Such entitlement is also deeply entrenched in the mindset of many Russians. "At least they used to be afraid of us" is a sentiment I heard repeatedly on my trips to Russia in the early 1990s. Another popular phrase in those days, "za derzhavu obidno," can be roughly translated as "makes you feel bad for the country," but really means much more: derzhava has overtones of "great power" and "autocratic state"; obidno conveys shame, hurt and resentment. With such a mentality, Putin's bully rhetoric--"Russia can rise from its knees and sock it to you good and hard," he remarked in 1999--found an eager audience.

The painful humiliation of Germany after World War II had one major positive aspect: The Nazi virus was purged from the nation's system. Russia never truly confronted or rejected the evil of its Communist past. Yeltsin, to his credit, sought to do just that. He outlawed the Communist party (which successfully challenged the ban in court) and spoke of the Soviet Union as "the evil empire." This changed under Putin, whose idea of resurgent Russian pride includes celebrating Soviet-era "accomplishments" while treating the crimes as deplorable, but fundamentally no worse than the blots on any other nation's history.

The new Russia bristles at any effort to account for those crimes, be it Ukraine's attempt to have the state-engineered famine of 1932-33 recognized as genocide by the United Nations or Estonia's prosecution of veteran Communist Arnold Meri for his role in the deportation of Estonian "undesirables" in 1949. In July, the Russian foreign ministry issued a peevish protest against President Bush's Captive Nations Week proclamation that mentioned "the evils of Soviet Communism and Nazi fascism," decrying it as an attempt to "continue the Cold War." "But how can it not continue," asked Soviet-era dissident Alexander Podrabinek in an article on the EJ.ru website, "when those in charge of Russia's foreign policy openly try to whitewash Communist ideology?"

National humiliation is not a thing to wish on anyone. But perhaps, after Russia's 20th-century history, a few lessons in humility would have been useful--and well deserved.

Cathy Young, a contributing editor to -Reason, is author of Growing Up in Moscow: Memories of a Soviet Girlhood.



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After reading thread after thread of pro Russian drivel it is a breath
of fresh air to read an accurate description of what the problems are
with Russia.It is a imperialistic,expansionist country with a population
who have never known democracy and shows very little interest in
in the idea. The Russians seem to feel we in the West have somehow
stolen their birthright and maybe they are to a certain extent right,we
have certainly cramped their ability to bully their neighbours,at least until
now.The  perceived weakness of the Western reaction to their latest
adventure will be looked at with great interest in the Kremlin and they
are probably planning their next push,at a guess, the Ukraine.
The Russians that I met here in Lahr fall into 2 categories,very arrogant,
and those that feel that they are somehow owed something by us in
the West,they both share a strong anti Americanism and contempt for
for the German society and its laws.
The pro Russian tone of some of the posters on this thread I can only
subscribe to the usual anti Americanism and as most of the pro Russian
posters have little in their profiles I can only assume they are students
who seem to feel that views of us old cold war warriors have little or no
credibility.
                Regards
.
 
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