Does Canada need a Military?

[Cpl.Banks]

Are we really facing a threat from China?? I dont really think so, we have always had pretty good relations with China, especially in the last few decades. Take for example Trudeau, one of the first Western diplomats to visit the eastern world. Even though China is stealing our technological industry, and buying up our industrie. We will be left like somebody put so well  "cottage country". But, even though their population is HUGE they still dont have the same technological advances as us. Their military though it is gargantuan still cant compare to the U.S`s. They have about the same number of personel(China might have a few tens of thousands  extra troops lying around but they are much less well trained and less well equiped, and i belive China has conscription? than the U.S`s army. So I think the Western powers are here to stay and NATO will stay strong...but eventually Aisia will overcome due to the fact of just plain numbers.
UBIQUE!!!!

 

[George Wallace]

Make your own judgement.  Here are some sites on the Chinese Armed Forces:

http://www.chinatoday.com/arm/    2.5 Million man Army.

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/default.asp

http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/handbook.html

http://www.rense.com/general21/jiangaskschina.htm  China's Army to prepare for Military Struggle

 

[Smarty]

Why is eveyone so afraid of china?  Its china, has anyone ever been to China?  Personally speaking Chinese people are generally very peaceful.  Chinese youth are smart and well educated.  Although they suffer from overpopulation, err.. just gonna have to dig deeper i guess.. 

Our media portrays China as some bubble thats gonna BURST and get crap all over the place, but being there personally i can say that would be hard to imagine. 

All the paratroopers would be gettin stuck on the buildings in Bejing, man that would be HARSH, Ak47s spraying up and ur parachute is stuck, DAMN!

 

[Smarty]

OH MAN.

FORGOT TO SAY

ARGH!!!

 

[Zipper]

I do not think that we are "afraid" of China. Although with their military might, I would be. It is the fact that they are one of the countries that would prove the most unstable to world peace due in part to their growing ambitions as well as their recent history (last 50 or so years). It could just as well be a blow up of major porportions between India and Pakastan, N. Korea and anyone within striking distance, China and Russia, Iran and the US, etc.

It doesn't really matter who it is. Just that history says that war is something that happens on a regular basis, and it happens BIG every 20-100 years or so.

So be prepared.

Which we are not.

And thus that and many other reason why we NEED a strong military.

 

[Cpl.Banks]

I saw the sites you told me to visit, the PLA's site was interesting, did you happen to look at it, I did and I can tell you I am not impressed,I do not think that China would be able to compete with say the US, for several reasons, first would be their equipment is older than ours!!!!! they field aprox 10 000 tanks right, but what they also say is that 5    500 of them are :The Type 59 main battle tank is a Chinese licensed production version of the Soviet T-54A. Thats 1958!!!!!!!! More than half of their tanks are obcelete!Not to mention 3000 Type 69/79 Main Battle Tanks...once again a Carl G could take that out(or at least disable it!!!!) These are old Begging cold war Russian clones! Their newest tank is too expensive for them to buy in large numbers and I quote: "a small number (few hundred) of the Type 98s will be equipped by few 'core units' in the Army." Even these tanks are out dated compared to MI's. This is only their tank force,They have virtually no IFV's or APC's, and the ones they have are outtdated AGAIN *who knew?* THey are develloping new IFV's but they are based on BMP-3 (Russian again!!!!) and those admitadly are pretty cool, a 100mm smoothbore cannon with a 30mm stablised gun, I dont they will get that mnay of those though. Their APC's are the kind we used in Korea! All in all their ARMY is a rather large one but poorly trained and not that well equiped, Tanks from the fifty's? I dont think they will be a threat, if they get more funding and train better they might be able to challenge the US but definatly not NATO, no way no how.
UBIQUE!!!!!!!!!

 

[Acorn]

People should, perhaps, stick with what they know.  :

Acorn

 

[pbi]

Why is eveyone so afraid of china?

Dunno: ask the Indians, Japanese, Taiwanese, Koreans and Australians what they think about the future of China in their part of the world. You might get a different perspective from folks who live within striking distance of China, some of whom have exchanged shots with the Chinese in living memory.

Cheers

 

[Cpl.Banks]

Acorn, I have gotten all of my info from the PLA's defence site, though I am only a cadet and I cannot hope to grasp then entire concept I do belive that my information is correct or at least not incorrect(maybe slightly flawed) but the numbers dont lie. And further more i have quoted from their site! If you dont likeit see the PLA's site and talk to me after. No offence intended, its just that I dont post things without being somewhat sure of what im saying.
UBIQUE!!!

 

[Acorn]

Fair enough Banks. "If it's on the internet it must be true." I would suggest branching beyond the PLA's website and looking at a more critical examination of...ahhh, why do I bother.

Bottom line me son, I do this for a living, and you need a bit more seasoning and training to be able to make any sort of assessment. I would suggest that you should, before making any assessment, consider posing your posts as questions (i.e. "the PLA website says X. Is this credible?") rather than posting comments about how "cool" certain bits of kit might be.

Just a friendly suggestion.

Acorn

 

[oyaguy]

Wow, gone two days and now I need to post some rebuttals.

to Mr. Wizard of Oz.

Relations between Canada and the US are not going to implode and on the same day the Ten Mountain crosses the border. It will take years. This of course, assumes it happens at all in such a catastrophic manner.

For your first point, Canadians are generally a smart bunch of people. If they did the math, there is no way any amount of conventional forces that would deter the US could be procured without crippling the Canadian economy. Therefore, nuclear weapons is the way. As for cost, if North Korea, with their GDP of $29.58 Billion, Purchasing Power Parity, can get a hold of nuclear weapons, Canada with it's $958.7 Billlion PPP, I think can handle the challenge. Hell, Calgary, my home town, probably has a bigger economic foot print than North Korea.

As for the "mature democracy", I believe Caesar and few others have made good points on it. The key word in my statement was mature. The Weimar Republic was not a mature democracy. Germany at the time had no tradition of democracy, especially with a demagogue like Hitler deliberately used the mechanisms of the Weimar Republic in order to usurp it. My definition of Mature Democracy is a country that has universal adult sufferage, along with a constitution, whether written or unwritten, and a Per Capita GDP of $20,000. Once a democracy hits that Per Capita GDP mark,  its practically immortal. The point about the constitution, I should add a is constitution that matters, not just fig leaf parchment. The Rule of Law, Independent Judiciary, etc...

Anyway, the point about I'm trying to make, with my whole nuclear weapons is the only mean with which Canadians could develop to deter the US, is when we say we need a military, we shouldn't be jumping at these figments in our imaginations. We should worry about the real threats to Canadian sovereignty, not the imaginary Bogey man in the closet.

 

[arty4life392]

In Respone to Faders view about the army and pride, I couldn't agree more i am just a Bdr with the artillery and have only been in for a few years, however i feel that this is the best job in the world.   And to respond to the Mig's comment, Canada needs an army so that basic freedoms can be ensured. You know the basic freedom that allows you to ask such an asinine question like does Canada need a Military?

Pride is not fighting for your country but to be fearless in dying for your country

 

[pbi]

You know the basic freedom that allows you to ask such an asinine question like does Canada need a Military?

I think I understand what you're driving at, but I would not be so quick to call this an asinine question. In fact, to me it is a bit like religious faith: the adherents have it, but often never permit it to be challenged or questioned. Thus, they are incapable of developing arguments to defend or explain their faith. The result of that is that non-believers take them to the intellectual cleaners and make mincemeat out of them. (Hmmmm-two metaphors in one sentence: OK-Mike-what do I win???).


We, the "believers" are in the same boat if we do not put our beliefs up on the intellectual hoist every now and then nd take a flashlight to them. We need to ask ourselves these questions, then go through the exercise of answering them, and bouncing our answers off each other. If we don't ask these questions, you can be very sure that the "non-believers" will.


To me, debate is what Army.ca is all about

Cheers.

 

[arty4life392]

Fair enough


Pride is not fighting for your country but to be fearless in dying for your country

 

[Wizard of OZ]

oyaguy

I never said that we could not afford them financially.  I said the public would never support financing them.  Yes NK does have them.  But they lack big money takers like health care, welfare, daycare, pension plans, all things that eat up our budget quicker then the purchase of some lonely nuc. 

As for Germany they were a deomocratic state before Hitler took over, not after, He made the changes, and then decided on "living space".  I think they would have met your criteria before and even during his election. 

 

[Blue Max]

Wow, gone two days and now I need to post some rebuttals.

to Mr. Wizard of Oz.

Relations between Canada and the US are not going to implode and on the same day the Ten Mountain crosses the border. It will take years. This of course, assumes it happens at all in such a catastrophic manner.

For your first point, Canadians are generally a smart bunch of people. If they did the math, there is no way any amount of conventional forces that would deter the US could be procured without crippling the Canadian economy. Therefore, nuclear weapons is the way. As for cost, if North Korea, with their GDP of $29.58 Billion, Purchasing Power Parity, can get a hold of nuclear weapons, Canada with it's $958.7 Billlion PPP, I think can handle the challenge. Hell, Calgary, my home town, probably has a bigger economic foot print than North Korea.

Anyway, the point about I'm trying to make, with my whole nuclear weapons is the only mean with which Canadians could develop to deter the US, is when we say we need a military, we shouldn't be jumping at these figments in our imaginations. We should worry about the real threats to Canadian sovereignty, not the imaginary Bogey man in the closet.

OYAGUY, I am not sure what you are trying to get at saying only nuclear weapons will deter the US. Are you making a case for Kim Jung Il?
Canada is part of NATO so that responsible democratic states can have a mutual defence pact without bankrupting our economies. We do not need nuclear weapons, maybe BMD but not nuclear weapons.

The real threat to Canadian sovereignty is ourselves if we fail in our duties to live up to our mutual defence commitments with our friendly neighbours; If we do not nourish our relationships with our like minded friendly neighbours; If we strip our military of the most basic capabilities to monitor our borders and be first on site to defend them befor our friends show up to help.

North Korea is not a real threat to the Pacific Rim but rather an extortionist spoiler. Extortionist in the way it goes about getting what it needs, and Spoiler in that if it was to go down (like USSR) it would prefer to take as much of the world down with it.  

China is the real threat, it has visions of grandeur in the Pacific Rim, and of its "rightful place in the world and history". Though it is not a match for the US NOW, take a look at how the Japanese are reacting. They are taking China very seriously and changing their constitution likewise.  We should take China very seriously as well.

Blue Max.

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

.

The real threat to Canadian sovereignty is ourselves if we fail in our duties to live up to our mutual defence commitments with our friendly neighbours; If we do not nourish our relationships with our like minded friendly neighbours; If we strip our military of the most basic capabilities to monitor our borders and be first on site to defend them before our friends show up to help.
    We do not need nuclear weapons unless we wish to forgo our defensive alliances.  If we wish to rely on alliances like NATO to ensure our defense, then we must retain a force that is able to contribute in such a way as to honour the spirit and letter of the accord, so that we can count on our partners standing with us in our own time of need.  That does mean sending troops to unpopular wars.  Remember WWII for the US didn't start until 1941, because the US people couldn't be convinced that it was their problem, even though the military and government knew better.  The value of our alliance system to us is in our allies perception of our contribution, if we are viewed as not doing our part, why should they bleed for us in turn?  If we wish to go our own way, then we need a military capable of handling our entire defence unaided, and we would require a nuclear deterrent, given two neighbors so vastly more powerful than ourselves.


China is the real threat, it has visions of grandeur in the Pacific Rim, and of its "rightful place in the world and history". Though it is not a match for the US NOW, take a look at how the Japanese are reacting. They are taking China very seriously and changing their constitution likewise.   We should take China very seriously as well.

    WWI began because Germany decided it needed to find "Its place in the sun", and because its leaders believed their problems could only be aaddressedwith "Blood and Iron" (quotes attributed to Otto Von Bismark, the German prewar Chancellor).  China too believes it is destined to become a true superpower.  Just today it formally ended prison without trial.  Why?  In the words of the Chinese leaders, this was done to end the European Unions embargo on sales of modern military hardware (especially fighters).  They are building a real fleet for power projection, and seek the air assets required to neutralize the US Pacific Fleet threat. Their antiquated armour is now being modernized, at a cost that is staggering even for an economy as huge as China's.  Given access to modern technology, and experience in using it,  equipped with the largest industrial capacity on earth, with manpower resources to scale, a desperate need for space and resources, and a long history of conquest, no democratic tradition, and a leadership willing to accept staggering casualties for minimal objectives, does any one else see a danger?

Blue Max.

Blue Max made good points, to have friends you have to act like one.  This world has not gotten so safe we can afford not to have them.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

, to have friends you have to act like one.   This world has not gotten so safe we can afford not to have them.

And that , my friends, is the golden nugget of the day.

Well said

 

[oyaguy]

With my thing for nuclear weapons, is that IF, the US was a hostile power, given the economic, and military disparity, nuclear weapons would be the only system we could deploy that would keep this hypothetical hostile US power out of Canada. What I am trying to get at, is stop with this fantasizing about Canada being overrun by the Chinese, Japanese, Argentinians, whomever. The only country that could successfully invade Canada is the US, and even some relatively modest preparation can pre-empt that.


As for North Korea, they're using nuclear weapons to extort the US. The hundreds of artillery pieces in range of Seoul, and the fact that the US and South Korea don't want North Korea to go down swinging is the reason the US isn't going to pull an Iraq with North Korea. Even with conventional weapons, the casualties the US has taken in Iraq would be peanuts compared to what the US's 2nd Infantry Division will take in their inevitable fighting retreat, or counter-attack. The millions of Koreans who would die from direct conflict, and the millions of North Koreans who would starve to death, or die trying to get out of the way.

And again, The Weimar Republic of Germany, no matter how it is cut, was not a mature democracy. They spent less than fifteen years as a democracy. By that time{the 30s} Canada had a tradition of representative government that goes back to 1839, with the first Durham report. Before that, Germany had absolutely no tradition with representative government, much less democracy, and much less a mature democracy. By today's standards, the representative governments of the 19th century{suich as Great Britain, Canada, USA with Germany not among them} would be considered to be decidedly undemocratic states, but the precendents and traditions were there.

 

[George Wallace]

oyaguy

I know you seem to think that Canada must develop its' own Nuclear Weapons of Mass Destruction to defend herself, but that is a fantasy that will never be able to happen in these times.

oyaguy

There is a major fault with your scenario. You and so many of Canada's "Intellectuals" have the opinion that in time of crisis or conflict, our Nation will be able to produce weapons and materials to go to war with. As we have sold off most of our Industrial capabilities under NAFTA and other Corporate deals, we would not. Yes, we do have the technology to develop any weapon system imaginable, however, we do not have the Industry to produce them. Also, in the socio-economic society of Canada today, we would not be able to produce such weapons SECRETLY. The impressions of so many today, that we can produce any weapons we need for war at the "Snap of Our Fingers" in the next conflict are a truly a work of Fiction. By the time that we even began to think of building weapons, the war would already be over.