Does Canada need a Military?

[Wizard of OZ]

Do you think blood would win out over greed?

I am not saying this would happen in 10 or even 20 yrs but think 50 or even 70 yrs down the road.  Who would still maintain a large resource base,  the US or Canada.  In the last 50 yrs we have become so dependent on the US for all things from jobs (markets for our goods) to development of our own resources. 

I think in the end greed would win over blood. It would be sorta like a civil war.

MOO

 

[buzgo]

Oh, I still think that the US is going to invade us at some point. Maybe if we ever ended up with an NDP federal government (?) or resisted attempts to get us to export our water supplies - who knows...

Maybe it would be more like a civil war, weren't there people in Vermont talking about seceeding to Canada as a state?

I agree with mainerjohntomas too, I think that the average Canadian would resist - maybe not right away, but eventually.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Maybe it would be more like a civil war, weren't there people in Vermont talking about seceeding to Canada as a state?

True but how many times has Que, AB and even BC said they were thinking of leaving Canada?

( i would sell them Quebec)  Just kidding (Maybe)

 

[oyaguy]

As long as Canada and the US are democracies {liberal democracies at that} The United States Will Never Invade Canada.
Period. Just a statistical, historical fact. Mature democracies don't make war on each other.
Besides, guess what people, Canada is a much more powerful country than we give ourselves credit for.

For example, Saddam Hussein, till 2003, was trying off and on, to get nuclear weapons. If Paul Martin, said tomorrow, that Canada would obtain Nuclear weapons, given a few years, we would have them. A few years after that we would have the delivery system for nuclear weapons. All of this without having to buy or steal the technical know how, or materials to make nuclear weapons.

The question then being, how many Americans is each Canadian worth? Does 1 Canada equal, say, A Chicago? A Los Angeles? A New York? A Washington D.C.? A Houston? A Seattle? A San Francisco? 1 million Americans? 2? 3? 10? 20? 30? 50? 100?

If relations between the U.S. and Canada soured to the point of overt hostility, Canada could only guarantee our sovereignty through nuclear weapons. Whatever the US think, their Ballistic Missile Defence system won't protect them from Canadian-made nuclear weapons.

Of course in this scenario, Canada is reduced to a parking lot, the US loses 10s, if not 100s, of millions, of citizens, and a good many of their major cites are reduced to rubble and whatever semblance of being a super power the US has, would be irrevocably broken. Throw in the dust kicked up by all the nuclear explosions, and a Canadian-US war, could shake civilization down to its foundation due to a nuclear winter. Depends on how many nuclear devices are used.

 

[George Wallace]

oyaguy

There is a major fault with your scenario.  You and so many of Canada's "Intellectuals" have the opinion that in time of crisis or conflict, our Nation will be able to produce weapons and materials to go to war with.  As we have sold off most of our Industrial capabilities under NAFTA and other Corporate deals, we would not.  Yes, we do have the technology to develop any weapon system imaginable, however, we do not have the Industry to produce them.  Also, in the socio-economic society of Canada today, we would not be able to produce such weapons SECRETLY.  The impressions of so many today, that we can produce any weapons we need for war at the "Snap of Our Fingers" in the next conflict are a truly a work of Fiction.  By the time that we even began to think of building weapons, the war would already be over.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

You 1) are assuming Canadian citizens would support and pay for a nuclear developmet program.

      2) are assuming that should relations sour think that we would be able to detect the first strike       capability of the US.


Both of which i think are dead WRONG.

We would lose our postion in NORAD and more then likely NATO.  We would be reduced to no moreinfo then we could detect on our own.  Which as it stands now is not whole heck of alot.


Really Mature democracies don't make war on each other?  Define this please, Germany was a democracy when Hitler and  his party were elected.  And he i think might have started a war yea that was it he started a war what was it called ohh yea World War II.

 

[canadianblue]

Well, the world is growing. I don't really fear much of a threat from the United States. The nation that I fear most is China, they are growing exponentially, and will eventaully need more resources. Now who do you all think they will invade in the future if they require resources. Probably Siberia, and I could see a war over that part of the world. Even though China has better relations with the west then ever before, I do percieve them as a threat. In any such a war as that, I think that most of the western world would declare war on China. However their are alot of aspects that could effect any future war

What role will technology play, I heard that the US is starting to experiment with robots that can fire at the enemy, allowing the soldier to stay off the battlefield. What about nuclear weapons, and what will happen if eventually are resources dwindle down.

I might be a bit of a survivalist, but I just am interested in seeing what future conflicts could possibly happen.

 

[dutchie]

Really Mature democracies don't make war on each other?  Define this please, Germany was a democracy when Hitler and  his party were elected.  And he i think might have started a war yea that was it he started a war what was it called ohh yea World War II.

Germany was NOT a democracy when it invaded Poland. Full stop.

Yes, Germany was a democratic state when Hitler came to power, but it was also crippled by the Depression and reparations payments. Their economic situation was completely dissabling, leading to great political instability. That will not happen in the US.

 

[George Wallace]

China is the new EMPIRE.

Go to the store, any store, and look at the labels.  "Made in China" is on everything.  More Industry is now moving into China than you can shake a stick at.  Chinese Business currently travel the world looking for new resources and markets.  Chinese are buying up Canadian Resource companies.  Will military forces be necessary?  I look at our economy and said years ago that the Americans had already invaded and bought us out.  I look at the Far East now in the same way.  High Tech companies are springing up all over China and India.  Soon we will become "Cottage Country" and only have our Tourist Industry to keep our economy going.

We will loss the Economic War soon; if we haven't already.

GW

 

[Wizard of OZ]

But it did elect the leader that sent them to war.  Correct.  Just as some other nations did.

elections put a person into power it is still up to the people to maintain the checks and balances on that power.

but it was also crippled by the Depression and reparations payments. Their economic situation was completely dissabling, leading to great political instability. That will not happen in the US.

Really you don't think that could happen they have trillions of dollars in national debt.  They are losing their manufatruing sector to China and other Asian nations.  HMMM i think it could very well happen if it is not already.

 

[dutchie]

I don't have the stats in front of me, but the economic situation in Germany, with regards to the Depression and the reparations payments, was really severe. They were paying billions a year to France that they didn't have, and the Depression hit them harder than any other country. You can't compare the US's current debt/deficit to that of Germany in the 30's. They're not in the same ball park, they're not even on the same planet.

Perhaps a_Majoor, Kirkhill, Brad Sallows, or Infanteer can comment on the political situation of Germany at that time. I just don't have the material either at my fingertips nor is it committed to memory. But my understanding is that it was this severe crippling of the depression and the Treaty of Versailles that allowed a leader to gain popularity. This was due to his willingness to thumb his nose at those outside Germany, all the while stoking the fires of Nationalism that had been quelled by years of 'shame' over the defeat at the hands of the Allies.

On their own, the Depression or the Reparations payments would (and did) cripple almost any economy of the day. Together, their damage was so severe that had WW2 not happened, and had the Reparations payments not been adjusted, today Germany would still be paying very dearly. The reparations payments were established as a PUNITIVE measure, without regard to Germany's actual ability to pay them.

Further, the US has a political system that would make it difficult, if not impossible, to create a dictatorship.

As my college History prof said to me, and I love it's simplicity: "Economic instability creates political instability. Economic stability creates political stability." The US's economy is nowhere near the instability required to thrust it into a dictatorship.

 

[Acorn]

Add to that the Hitler created his power base through hate and intimidation, and then used that same intimidation to seize power (his "election" is somewhat more questionable than the famous 2000 "hanging chad" nonsense).

There was nothing particularly democratic about Germany in the 'tween war years, let alone "mature democracy."

Acorn

 

[old medic]

There are many good books on the Weimar Republic and Germany's troubles after 1918.

A good one is: The Weimar Republic Through the Lens of the Press,
Eye Witness Accounts 1918-1933 In Press Photos and Photo Essays
by Torsten Palmer and Hendrik Neubauer
2000 Konemann Verlagsgesellschaft mbH
ISBN 3-8290-2697-8  for the english translation

I leave out the details as that's more suited for a history thread, and just say it's a good read.

 

[PeterLT]

I was just reading over all the posts must say that it's one heck of a ride!  It's evolved from a simple question to socio-historical commentary with a minimum of bloodshed. Bravo folks! ;D

Peter

 

[mainerjohnthomas]

Further, the US has a political system that would make it difficult, if not impossible, to create a dictatorship.

As my college History prof said to me, and I love it's simplicity: "Economic instability creates political instability. Economic stability creates political stability." The US's economy is nowhere near the instability required to thrust it into a dictatorship.

    The problem with a comparison between the German Weimar republic and our position with the US, is the rationale for war is totally different.  Germany went to war against their equals for revenge, and to secure the resources stripped away by the unjust treaty Versai.  The US would look at annexation of Canada much like they looked at intervention in Mexico just before WWI during the civil war, after the Mexicans failed to control Pancho Villa.  To the US, it is not so much an invasion, as a restoration of stability on their borders.  They got their hand slapped pretty hard when they intervened in Mexico (surprise!), just as they have here when they tried it.  The motivation is still there, a combination of fears of security, and a little manifest destiny, leave the risk of the US invading to put our house in order if they feel we cannot.  If we do not have an army to suppress locally derived security issues (IE transborder disputes like Oka, separatist uprisings, or home grown terrorist operations) to their satisfaction, we may find they use their army to do it, and are unlikely to leave afterwards.

 

[buzgo]

Well, the world is growing. I don't really fear much of a threat from the United States. The nation that I fear most is China, they are growing exponentially, and will eventaully need more resources. Now who do you all think they will invade in the future if they require resources. Probably Siberia, and I could see a war over that part of the world. Even though China has better relations with the west then ever before, I do percieve them as a threat. In any such a war as that, I think that most of the western world would declare war on China. However their are alot of aspects that could effect any future war

What role will technology play, I heard that the US is starting to experiment with robots that can fire at the enemy, allowing the soldier to stay off the battlefield. What about nuclear weapons, and what will happen if eventually are resources dwindle down.

I might be a bit of a survivalist, but I just am interested in seeing what future conflicts could possibly happen.

-- I read that Tom Clancy book too, he was right about using passenger jets as guided missiles....

I believe that China is now the largest owner of us Treasury holdings. Nations worldwide are losing confidence in the US dollar, including China, Japan and South Korea. They are starting to talk about pegging their currencies against something other than US $$. This has already damaged the Dow and other markets and has shaken confidence in the US economy.

The US has set themselves up for a major economic catastrophe, what are they going to do when their credit runs out?

As for China, they are going to be the 'next' superpower (if they aren't already) maybe they will do things differently... Who knows? Its hard to argue with the country that produces the majority of your consumer goods.

 

[Blue Max]

     The problem with a comparison between the German Weimar republic and our position with the US, is the rationale for war is totally different.   Germany went to war against their equals for revenge, and to secure the resources stripped away by the unjust treaty Versai.   The US would look at annexation of Canada much like they looked at intervention in Mexico just before WWI during the civil war, after the Mexicans failed to control Pancho Villa.   To the US, it is not so much an invasion, as a restoration of stability on their borders.   They got their hand slapped pretty hard when they intervened in Mexico (surprise!), just as they have here when they tried it.   The motivation is still there, a combination of fears of security, and a little manifest destiny, leave the risk of the US invading to put our house in order if they feel we cannot.   If we do not have an army to suppress locally derived security issues (IE transborder disputes like Oka, separatist uprisings, or home grown terrorist operations) to their satisfaction, we may find they use their army to do it, and are unlikely to leave afterwards.

I find myself agreeing with your outlook, as one possible scenario for the future.

B M.

 

[pbi]

As a side note, if you're interested in a capsule history of the political and military situation in Germany between the end of WWI and just prior to the accession of Hitler and the Nazis, check out our Bde web site Prof. Dev page at:

http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/38cbg_hq/Headquarters/Command/professional_development/mod1_jan03.htm

Cheers

 

[big bad john]

Very nice indeed.  I find that on line education is some what lacking in the Canadian Army Reserves, so this is nice to see.  But that is just my impression.

 

[Stirling N6123]

Geeez, A guy or gal really has to check the boards daily. I take a few days off work sick, and I had to recheck to make sure I was on the same topic. I have to now go back and reread 2 days woth of post's. So much work, so little time. :crybaby: