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Does Character Matter?

pbi said:
I'm not sure what the courts have to do with his personal behaviour, which is really what my question is about. They will have lots to do with any criminal behaviour that is proven, (if any ever is), but we clearly aren't there yet.

In your original post, it asks if someone should be able to be removed from an elected position. The answer is no, unless they break the law. Democracy chooses who is in charge, not some one elses "sensibilities" in regards to personal behaviour. If you don't like how someone acts, don't vote for them. Your view (not you specifically, but anyone who wants to remove an elected official based on attitude) on what is "proper" does not matter at all to me.
 
pbi said:
I agree with you. I found his sainthood was a bit strange, given the fairly widely circulated stories that you recalled. That said, IMHO we would have a hard time denying that he was an "effective" politician: he pulled off an electoral victory that I never would have thought possible.
The same could be said of Ford, although their effectiveness is based on completely different reasons.  ;)

I think we have to be careful about basing our judgement on the importance of character, on the feelings of any particular politician's hard core supporters. These people will always see a saint where the rest of us see a devil: to do otherwise might be to call their entire belief system (not to mention their own gullibility) into question.
I have no issue calling peoples beliefs into question, especially when those beliefs demonstrate blantant hypocrisy, wilful blindness etc.  I voted PC last federal election, if I am around in Canada, for the next one, probably vote for Libertarian or something, at least those fringe parties haven't had a change to totally lie and demonstrate their incompentence.

And for the record, I never voted Ford, I was deployed at the time, and this time round well, I will be here in Kabul.
 
Sythen said:
... Democracy chooses who is in charge, not some one elses "sensibilities" in regards to personal behaviour. If you don't like how someone acts, don't vote for them. Your view (not you specifically, but anyone who wants to remove an elected official based on attitude) on what is "proper" does not matter at all to me.

Seen. Go back and take a look: I found some info on recall legislation in the US. It allows the voters to pull an elected official before their term is up, without restricting the grounds to criminal charges. (Which would be handled differently anyway)

Granted, a US practice and not a Canadian one (except in BC). But maybe one we should think about, for politicians of all stripes and stations.
 
pbi said:
Seen. Go back and take a look: I found some info on recall legislation in the US. It allows the voters to pull an elected official before their term is up, without restricting the grounds to criminal charges. (Which would be handled differently anyway)
Arnold was probably the most high profile.  There have a been a few state legislators in Colorado, who were recalled and punted after voting in stricter gun control laws, within the last few months.

Granted, a US practice and not a Canadian one (except in BC). But maybe one we should think about, for politicians of all stripes and stations.
I would not be opposed to the idea, hell something like that could probably useful, in forcing an unelected Premier to stop stalling and call an election already.
 
Sythen said:
In your original post, it asks if someone should be able to be removed from an elected position. The answer is no, unless they break the law. Democracy chooses who is in charge, not some one elses "sensibilities" in regards to personal behaviour. If you don't like how someone acts, don't vote for them. Your view (not you specifically, but anyone who wants to remove an elected official based on attitude) on what is "proper" does not matter at all to me.

As I recall, in Canada, I don't think that even a criminal conviction is usually enough to force someone out of an elected office. Mayors of Montreal like to resign in disgrace, so it doesn't come up much there. Mayor Ford came close to being pushed out by court order for conflict of interest, but he would have been allowed to run in the follow-on election.  I'm not aware of any commonly used method by which an elected Member of Parliament can be forced out of office, even for being a criminal. We may have inherited this from the UK -- Conrad Black is still a member of the House of Lords, and was so during his extended time in the custody of the US prison system, although his lack of voting was covered by a "Leave of Absence".

As to the case of character -- I would separate character from criminality. Some of Ariel Sharon's actions, in several wars, certainly cross the line of international law and would be what I would consider to be war crimes. But I would never question the man's character, his dedication to the men under his command or his belief that such actions were necessary for the defence of his nation. Conversely, John McCain has probably never done anything more illegal than speeding in his whole life, but I find his treatment of his first wife to be reprehensible and to show a serious lack of character.
 
Hatchet Man said:
I would not be opposed to the idea, hell something like that could probably useful, in forcing an unelected Premier to stop stalling and call an election already.

All premiers and prime ministers are unelected.
 
If it truly is personal, assuming no lawbreaking is involved, I could hardly care less.

I care about competence and professional honesty, so long as the personal problems, do not become my problems.
 
dapaterson said:
All premiers and prime ministers are unelected.

Semantics.  The current premier of Ontario was chosen by her party, and has yet to face the voters at large.
 
Well...so far the vote on this thread seems to be that while it might be useful to have a US (or BC-)-style recall mechanism, it probably would never get used unless a politician was actually convicted of a crime while in office, in which case it would probably be redundant.

So, I guess the answer to the question "Does Character Matter?" is "not much, really".

Unless, of course, it's a politician we don't happen to like?
 
Slim...


"To begin with, we do not in the Army talk of "management", but of "leadership". This is significant. There is a difference between leadership and management. The leader and the men who follow him represent one of the oldest, most natural and most effective of all human relationships. The manager and those he manages are a later product, with neither so romantic nor so inspiring a history. Leadership is of the spirit compounded of personality and vision; its practice is an art. Management is of the mind, more a matter of accurate calculation, of statistics, of methods, time tables, and routine; its practice is a science. Managers are necessary; leaders are essential. A good system will produce efficient managers but more than that is needed. We must find managers who are not only skilled organizers by inspired and inspiring leaders, destined carefully eventually to fill the highest ranks of control and direction. Such men will gather round them close knit teams of subordinates like themselves and of technical experts, whose efficiency, enthusiasm and loyalty will be unbeatable. Increasingly this is recognized and the search for leadership is on.

Who should we look for? Where are we likely to find it? When we have found it, how shall we develop and use it? Can the experience of the Army be any help? Let us see.

In this matter of leadership we in the Fighting Services have, of course, certain very marked advantages over civil life:-


(i)                The principle of personal leadership is traditional and accepted.

(ii)              Besides, there is a strict legal code for the enforcement of obedience to lawful direction.

(iii)            Officers and men recognize that they are on the same side, fighting together against a common enemy.

(iv)              The commanders do not, in war at any rate, have to pay so much regard to the financial effects of their action.

I can well understand a business man saying, "If we had all that, management would indeed be simple!" So, lest you think that military management is too easy, I would remind you that:-


(i)                Personal leadership exists only as long as the officers demonstrate it by superior courage, wider knowledge, quicker initiative and a greater readiness to accept responsibility than those they lead.

(ii)              Again military command is not just a matter bawling order that will be obeyed for fear of punishment. Any commander's success comes more from being trusted than from being feared; from leading rather than driving.

(iii)            Officers and men feel themselves on the same side only as long as the officers, in all their dealings, show integrity and unselfishness and place the well-being of their men before their own.

(iv)              In war the general may not be haunted by finance, but his is the responsibility for good management and economy in matters more important than money - his men's lives.
These things, not stars and crowns or the director's Rolls-Royce, are the badges of leadership anywhere.
When we talk of leaders in the Army what sort of men do we picture? Not the explosive old generals of the comic strips, whose complexions are indicative of blood-pressure and of the consumption of port - both high; whose conversation is limited to reminiscences of Poona and of blood-sports; whose only solution to any political or social problem is "Damn it, sir, shoot 'em". If those generals ever existed in real life they were well on the way out before I joined the Army. No, the first things we require in a leader are character, of which I will speak later, and an alert mind. Of course, it will be a military mind. Every profession produces its own type of mind which shows itself in its trained approach to any given question. A scientist, for instance, if you ask him something, will probably answer, "I cannot tell you now. Come back in six months when the experiments I am engaged in will, I hope, be completed and I shall have compared my results with those of other research workers in the same field. Then I may be able to tell you."

If you ask an engineer what sort of a bridge should be put across a river, his answer will be, "Before I can give an indication I must have exact information. What is the width of the river, its depth, its flow? What are it banks like, its bottom, what is the highest recorded flood? Is the site accessible; is labour available? What is the climate? How much traffic will the bridge be expected to carry in the future?

But your general cannot answer like that. He knows the information he has is far from complete; that some of it is bound to be inaccurate. He is only too well aware that there are all sorts of factors over which he has no control - the enemy, the weather and a dozen others. Yet he has got to say promptly, clearly and with every appearance of complete confidence, "We will do this!" Other professions are trained quite rightly not to reply until they have the exact and correct answer, some to give an answer made up of alternatives or possibilities. The military mind has to provide, not necessarily the perfect answer, but one which, in the circumstances as far as they are known, will work. That given, the commander has to back his judgement, face the risks, force his plan through and stand or fall by the result. It seems to me that wouldn't be a bad kind of mind to initiate and carry through enterprises in other fields - possibly even in those of commerce and industry.

What is leadership? I would define it as the projection of personality. It is that combination of persuasion, compulsion and example that makes other people do what you want them to do. If leadership is this projection of personality then the first requirement is a personality to project. The personality of a successful leader is a blend of many qualities - courage, will power, knowledge, judgement and flexibility of mind.

Courage is the basis of all leadership, indeed of all virtue in man or beast. Courage is o les in the higher than in the lower levels of command, but the greater the responsibility the more the emphasis shifts from physical to moral courage – a much rarer quality. Rare, but essential to higher leadership.

Will power is, I suppose, the most obvious requirement in a leader’s make-up. Without it no man can remain a leader for he will have to force through his purpose, not only against the enemy, but against the weariness of his troops, the advise of his experts, the doubts of his staff, the waverings of politicians and the inclinations of his allies. I am sure these obstacles are duplicated in industry; will power is as needed in the board room as in the council of war.

The main task of a leader is to make decisions, but if he has not the judgement to make the right decisions, then the greater his strength of will, the higher his courage, the more tragic will be his mistakes. When looking for your leader, make sure of his courage and his will power, but for the love of Mike, see that he has judgement, that he is balanced.

I said he must have knowledge. A man has no right to set himself up as a leader – or to be set up as a leader – unless he knows more than those he is to lead. In a small unit, a platoon say – or maybe a workshop gang – the leader should be able to do the job of any man in the outfit better than he can. That is a standard that should be required from all junior leaders. As the leader rises higher in the scale, he can no longer, of course, be expected to show such mastery of the detail of all the activities under him. A Divisional Commander need no know how to coax a wireless set, drive a tank, preach a sermon, or take out an appendix as well as the people in his division who are trained to do those things. But he has got to know how long these jobs should take, what their difficulties are, what they need in training and equipment and the strain they entail. As the leader moves towards the top of the ladder, he must be able to judge between experts and technicians and to use their advice although he will not need their knowledge. One kind of knowledge the he must always keep in his own hands - is that of his men.

“Flexibility of mind” is becoming more and more important to leadership. The world, in material and scientific matter, is advancing much more rapidly than most men can keep up with. A leader is surrounded by new and changing factors. What it was wise to do yesterday may well be foolish today. Some invention, some new process, some political change may have come along overnight and the leader must speedily adjust himself and his organization to it. The only living organisms that survive are those that adapt themselves to change. There is always the danger that determination becomes only obstinacy; flexibility mere vacillation. Every man must work out the balance between them for himself; until he has he is no real leader.

Now if a man has all these qualifications – courage, will power, judgement, knowledge, flexibility of mind – he cannot fail to be a leader in whatever walk of life he is engaged. Yet he is still not the leader we seek; he lacks one last quality – integrity. Integrity should not be so much a quality of itself as the element in which all the others live and are active, as fishes exist and move in water.

Integrity is a combination of the old Christian virtues of being honest with all men and of unselfishness, thinking of others, the people we lead, before ourselves. Moral reasons are, strangely enough, the ones that both in war and commerce tell most in the long run, but apart from its spiritual aspect this attitude – and there need be nothing soft or sloppy about it – has a practical material value. The real test of leadership is not if your men will follow you in success, but if they will stick by you in defeat and hardship. They won’t do that unless you believe you to be hones and to have care for them.

I once had under me a battalion that had not done well in a fight. I went to see why. I found men in the jungle, tired, hungry, dirty, jumpy, some of them wounded, sitting miserably about doing nothing. I looked for he CO – for any officer; none was to be seen. Then I realized why that battalion had failed. Collected under a tree were the officers, having a meal while the men went hungry. Those officers had forgotten the tradition of the Service that they look after their men’s wants before their own. I was compelled to remind them. I hope they never again forgot the integrity and unselfishness that always permeate good leadership. I have never known men tail to respond to them.

So much for the type of man we want as a leader. How, in a big organization are we to find him? In the Army we believe it is vitally important to recognize the potential leader at an early stage of his career. Then, while cultivating the natural root of leadership in him, to graft on to its growth the techniques of management. To uncover the natural leaders in our own ranks – to attract them from the outside, too – and then give them the chance to get our in front and lead.

I think we have done this more deliberately, more systematically and more constantly in the Army for the last forty years than has been done in industry.

From the day he joins, a recruit is scanned constantly for signs of potential leadership. Within a few weeks at his depot if his alertness, intelligence, education and general character justify it, he finds himself in either the potential officers; or potential NCO’s squad. When he joins his unit watched for leadership all the time, he may be recommended for a commission. A Selection Board tests him and if he satisfies it, he moves on either to an Officer’s Training School for a National Service Commission or a Cadet College for a Regular one. Over that hurdle, the young officer joins his unit where for some time in decent obscurity he should learn the bolts and nuts of his trade and equally important, gain his first real experience of leadership.

Our aim is to extract the potential officer at the start of his career and begin his grooming for leadership as soon as possible. Too long in the ranks is not good for him and the sooner he enters junior management the better. Responsibility breeds responsibility; the best training for leadership is leadership.

Schools, where the use of weapons and tactics are taught, staff colleges which study not only the techniques of staff work – management, but the principles and practices of command leadership all help to turn the young officer into a leader. In this the annual Confidential Reports submitted on every officer help a great deal. A study of his reports over a period of years will give a very fair idea of an officer’s character, capabilities and what sort of post he will fill best. Eventually he may be placed on the select list of officers, whose careers are planned some years ahead to give them the kind of experience they will need to be finned for high command. Such officers are well up in management and the very highest appointments are coming within their reach.

Of course the pyramid narrows rapidly towards the top and on the climb there many are dropped out, but by starting in management early, being watched all the time and given varied experience the best men do get to the top. One of the most difficult but none the less important things about estimating a man’s capacity is to be able to recognize his ceiling – the point beyond which he will be tested too highly.

I have talked so far about those destined for the higher appointments but the Army in which the only leaders are the generals will min no victories. All down the line there must be leaders. We have the equivalent of supervisors and foremen of industry; they are our Warrant and Non-Commissioned Officers. You will note we call them officers. They are very definitely part of the management, feel themselves that they are and are recognized by others as such. It has seemed to me that the position of the equivalent ranks in industry suspended as they often are, between management and workers, must be terribly difficult. I have sometimes though the American system where they are made to feel much more a part of management has advantages.

The greater the size of an army, of an organization, the more difficult it becomes for the leaders to make their ideas and intentions clear and vivid to all their thousands of subordinates. All sorts of ways of doing this have been attempted. There has even gown up in industry a special class of officer whose job roughly is to keep touch between management and work. I think there is some danger they may interpose rather than correct. Leadership is a very personal thin and like some germs it is weakened by passing through other bodies.

In my experience thee are many things that can be done to keep touch, but if they are to be effective they must all be based on two things:-




(i)                  The head man of the army, the firm; the division, the department; the regiment, the workshop must be known as an actual person to all under him.

(ii)                  The soldier of the employee must be made to feel he is part of the show and what he is and what he does matters to it.
The best way to get known to your men is to let them see you and hear you by going among them and talking to them. The head man should be able to walk on to any parade ground in his command or into any factory in his firm and be recognized – even if it’s only “Here comes the old so-and-so.” It is surprising how soldiers and workmen can use an uncomplimentary expression as an endearment. The boss should talk to individuals as he moves about and occasionally – only occasionally, as it should be something of an event – assemble his staff and workers, mixed together for preference, and tell them something of what he is trying to do. It’s not more difficult, I should think, to talk to a meeting of employees than to one of shareholders – and I do believe it’s worth more. To talk to men like that doesn’t require great eloquence; only two things are needed – to know what you are talking about and to believe in yourself. That last is important.

To make anyone feel part of a show you have to take them into your confidence. We soldiers have long grown out of the “theirs-not-to-reason-why” stage. Any intelligent man wants to know why he’s doing things and what for. It’s not a bad idea to tell him; let him look a bit farther along the chain of which he is a link. Personally I believe a good system passing on to every man information of what is going on outside his immediate view is worth more that such things as joint consultation which really only reach a few. Security, I know, may enter into this as is does in military matters, but a little risk with security is more than repaid by the feeling chaps get that their leaders have confidence in them, that they are let into the know and that they belong.

From washing machines to electronic brains we live increasingly by technology. Technicians are vital to our industry. But we don’t make a man a general in the field because he is an expert in explosives; the most brilliant surgeon is not necessarily the best man to run a hospital; nor the best-selling author to run a publishing business. The technically trained man is not the answer to the management problem. There has in some quarters been a tendency to make managers out of technical men. Some of them may make good managers because they have in them the qualities of leadership, but the better to use him in his own field.

Industry in the past has produced some managers who were true leaders; you have had your share in Australia, in South Australia, but management itself is now a specialized field. It is little use any longer to let men work their way up in haphazard fashion; then grab the nearest at hand, make him a manager, hoping he will learn the techniques and provide the leadership as he goes along.

We anxiously calculate stocks of raw materials, seek new minerals, study technical advances overseas and push them on at home; we devise new processes, we equip our factories with new machinery. In all these matters we take great thought for he morrow. Yet too often we just hope that tomorrow’s leaders will, by some miracle, bob up when needed.

The only way in which the growing need for leadership in management can be met is to find the potential leader and then start his training and give him his chance to lead.

Here is Australia, believe me, there is not lack of potential leaders – the climate, the freedom, the tradition of this country breed them: Leadership material is lying around in every factory, office and university in Australia. Unless we spot it and give it a chance, a lot of it is doomed to rust. That would be a tragedy but a greater would be that our expanding industry should lack leadership.

The raw material of leadership is there and the Australian worker, properly led, from what I have seen of him, is as good as any and more intelligent than most. But the words properly led are vital. Australian industry deserves and will need leaders, not just efficient managers.

In industry you will never have to ask men to do the stark things demanded of soldiers, but the men you employ are the same men. Instead of rifles the handle tools; instead of guns they serve machines. They have changed their khaki and jungle-green for workshop overalls and civvy suits. But they are the same men and they will respond to leadership of the right kind as they have always done.

Infuse your management with leadership; then they will show their mettle in the workshop as they have on the battlefield. Like me, they would rather be led than managed. Wouldn’t you?"

http://intergon.net/slim.html
 
daftandbarmy said:
Slim...


"To begin with, we do not in the Army talk of "management", but of "leadership" ...

So much for the type of man we want as a leader. How, in a big organization are we to find him? In the Army we believe it is vitally important to recognize the potential leader at an early stage of his career. Then, while cultivating the natural root of leadership in him, to graft on to its growth the techniques of management. To uncover the natural leaders in our own ranks – to attract them from the outside, too – and then give them the chance to get our in front and lead.

I think we have done this more deliberately, more systematically and more constantly in the Army for the last forty years than has been done in industry.

From the day he joins, a recruit is scanned constantly for signs of potential leadership. Within a few weeks at his depot if his alertness, intelligence, education and general character justify it, he finds himself in either the potential officers; or potential NCO’s squad. When he joins his unit watched for leadership all the time, he may be recommended for a commission. A Selection Board tests him and if he satisfies it, he moves on either to an Officer’s Training School for a National Service Commission or a Cadet College for a Regular one. Over that hurdle, the young officer joins his unit where for some time in decent obscurity he should learn the bolts and nuts of his trade and equally important, gain his first real experience of leadership.

Our aim is to extract the potential officer at the start of his career and begin his grooming for leadership as soon as possible. Too long in the ranks is not good for him and the sooner he enters junior management the better. Responsibility breeds responsibility; the best training for leadership is leadership.

Schools, where the use of weapons and tactics are taught, staff colleges which study not only the techniques of staff work – management, but the principles and practices of command leadership all help to turn the young officer into a leader. In this the annual Confidential Reports submitted on every officer help a great deal. A study of his reports over a period of years will give a very fair idea of an officer’s character, capabilities and what sort of post he will fill best. Eventually he may be placed on the select list of officers, whose careers are planned some years ahead to give them the kind of experience they will need to be finned for high command. Such officers are well up in management and the very highest appointments are coming within their reach.


Of course the pyramid narrows rapidly towards the top and on the climb there many are dropped out, but by starting in management early, being watched all the time and given varied experience the best men do get to the top. One of the most difficult but none the less important things about estimating a man’s capacity is to be able to recognize his ceiling – the point beyond which he will be tested too highly.

I have talked so far about those destined for the higher appointments but the Army in which the only leaders are the generals will min no victories. All down the line there must be leaders. We have the equivalent of supervisors and foremen of industry; they are our Warrant and Non-Commissioned Officers. You will note we call them officers. They are very definitely part of the management, feel themselves that they are and are recognized by others as such. It has seemed to me that the position of the equivalent ranks in industry suspended as they often are, between management and workers, must be terribly difficult. I have sometimes though the American system where they are made to feel much more a part of management has advantages.

...

http://intergon.net/slim.html


Slim was, as usual, spot on, but see, also, my comments and consider the problem commanders in the fleet and the field, today, have in convincing higher HQs that we must be prepared to fight with the forces we have, not with the one some admirals and generals, bureaucrats and politicians dream about.
 
I must admit that my views on leadership and the necessity of character are to a certain extent shaped by the views of people like Slim, and (obviously...) by my years in the Army. I agree with ERC that the military (especially the Army) places a great emphasis on selecting, developing and promoting leaders. I don't know of any organization that even comes close.

And even with all that we have still gotten it wrong from time to time (we can all think of the examples: some have been horrible). But, just imagine what we would get if we didn't even have the systems we have.  Clearly, the system that puts a person into municipal office lacks most of the checks, balances and rigour that the military system has: essentially all you have to do is win the support of a majority (or, worse and far more common,  a plurality) of voters, many of whom tend to be ill-informed or "single issue", and you're in.

So maybe we shouldn't expect much.

In my book, the rules that His Worship broke are:

-Don't behave in ways that your subordinates are prohibited from. It's like saying "look what I can do, look what I can do, Nyaaah nyaaah". You can't have a rule for your own conduct and a rule for others.;

-Never bully or belittle subordinates, especially the very junior ones who are largely defenceless. To paraphrase: "The measure of a truly great person is how they treat those who could never be of any use to them";

-never resort to that weakest, lowest and most despicable of all moral and ethical "defences": "He did it too! He did it too!"

-tell the truth; and

-act in ways that, if your people were to copy your ways, things would improve. In other words, "lead by example".

To me, it has very little to do with a "Right" or "Left" agenda: it's about how you behave and how you treat people.
 
How our leaders are chosen and how they gain, retain and lose power is a major part of our political system. By largely taking force out of it democracies flourish over the long term compared to alternatives.

As for Ford - insulting and denigrating his supporters isn't a very effective means of winning them over. Drug use, especially over a lifetime is not uncommon.

   
Drugs and Drug Policy in Canada
    A brief review and Commentary
    By Diane Riley, PhD
    Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy  &
    International Harm Reduction Association

    Prepared for the Honourable Pierre Claude Nolin
    November 1998
Illicit Drugs

Many Canadians report that they have used illicit drugs. At some point in their lives, 24% of Canadians have used one or more of the following illegal drugs: cannabis, cocaine. LSD, speed/amphetamines, heroin. More males than females report having used these drugs (30% versus 18%).

Cannabis (marijuana/hashish): Cannabis is the most widely used illegal drug in Canada. Just over 23% of Canadians report having used cannabis at some point in their life. Current use is around 7.5% as compared to 6.5% in 1989. Twice as many males (10%) as females (5%) report use in the past 12 months.

Cocaine: The percentage of Canadians reporting that they have ever used cocaine or crack-cocaine is just under 4%, which is only slightly different from the 1989 survey (3.5%). The number of current users (in the past 12 months) has dropped to 0.7% of the population (from 1.4% in 1989).

LSD, Amphetamines (Speed) and Heroin: The percentage of Canadians reporting use of one or more of these drugs in the past 12 months is just over 1%, an increase from 0.4% in 1989. More males (1.5%) than females (0.7%) use these drugs. The proportion of Canadians who have used these drugs at least once in their lives has risen to 6% in 1994, from 4% in 1989.

Overall. illicit drug use increased substantially across the country from 1993 to 1994. Use of cannabis increased from 4.2% to 7.4%, cocaine increased from 0.3 % to 0.7% and use of LSD, speed or heroin increased from 0.3% in 1993 to just over 1% in 1994. There are no recent national data to allow us to see whether this trend has continued.
 
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