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Door Gunner

In my small slice of experience, I can say that I saw a lot of Reg Force troops get mighty pissed off when this "go" first came out as Reservist-only.

Everyone understands the value in Reserves, especially with sending up reinforcements to fill the ranks, but I can fully understand why they would be p!ssed off. 

Putting myself in a Reg Force troop's boots...here I am fully committed to my country, and then the perception would very much be that that came CF who I decided to commit everything to went and went a trade with a perception as a sweet one available only to part-timers.
 
Yes... Because the Reservisits who are on ROTOs right next to their Reg F brethren, or who works to contribute to society, and works again to contribute to the defence of that society, is in no way fully comittied to Canada or the CF... ::)
 
That's the great thing about a dead horse, you can beat it and beat it and it never goes away.
 
MedTech,

You're barking up the wrong tree here.  I've been in the mo-litia myself, and now that I'm in the Regs of course I know that Reservists who have died on tour have committed more to Canada than we alive in the Regs have.

However, I will go to bat for those Reg Force troops who felt ripped off.  Think about it, would you not be torqued that they made something available (especially a "go" with such a seemingly high cool factor) to people who did not commit as much as you?

Not talking about the Reservists who die on tour, not talking about those full-time Reservists who try harder than some Reg Force guys, I'm saying that for the majority of Reg Force troops who give up more of their life than Reservists, it's quite the kick in the junk and I think they have a right to gripe about this one.
 
I'm curious, exactly what do you think a Regular Force soldier does that makes you think he or she would deserve to have a sense of entitlement to choose their own taskings over the decisions of the chain of command to allocate positions to Reservists?  What if they're planning to get out right after their tour, do they still have the same right of entitlement? Or is simply having a Reg Force enrollment enough to think one should have such perks? 

 
Petamocto said:
MedTech,

You're barking up the wrong tree here.  I've been in the mo-litia myself, and now that I'm in the Regs of course I know that Reservists who have died on tour have committed more to Canada than we alive in the Regs have.

However, I will go to bat for those Reg Force troops who felt ripped off.  Think about it, would you not be torqued that they made something available (especially a "go" with such a seemingly high cool factor) to people who did not commit as much as you?

Not talking about the Reservists who die on tour, not talking about those full-time Reservists who try harder than some Reg Force guys, I'm saying that for the majority of Reg Force troops who give up more of their life than Reservists, it's quite the kick in the junk and I think they have a right to gripe about this one.

And I would condemn you for looking at the situation through blinders.  You have taken a rather narrow view on the situation.  The Comd of LFCA who initiated the role and assigned it, took Reservists who where on Work Up Trg for a ROTO, but on the 10% List.  He found an opportunity to give them a validation for their training, volunteering to give up their time, and fill a role that was just coming online.  He also dedicated a certain Unit to be re-roled into this employment. 

I really don't know of any Ref Force unit that is roled for this type of employment. 

I could change the track here, with your displayed attitude, and ask you if we should take away the "Jump" status of certain Reserve Units.

If anyone is barking up the wrong tree, it just may be you.
 
I haven't once said that I disagree with the CoC's decision; all I have said is that I fully understand why a Reg Force soldier would be p!ssed about it (and I have heard more than a dozen coffee room discussions about this).

As you said, this topic has already been beaten into submission and I really have nothing new.  Just the typical for Regs:

1. Gives up almost his entire life living away from his family and friends where he grew up;
2. Away from his wife and kids more often;
3. More than likely has to live in a place he doesn't like quality-of-life wise; and
4. By his very nature is more committed because it's full time.  His 25 year career will entail him only caring about one thing, not sharing interest with anything else.  All his qualifications will be Army-focused, and every book he reads about work will be about the Army.

That's where the Reg Force soldier usually gets his "greater-than-thou" mindset.  It's not literally thinking he is better than a Reservist, it's just that it's obvious: If person X is fully committed to something, and person Y is committed to two things, how can you make an argument that person Y is as committed to what X is committed to?

MedTech,

Again, it has nothing to do with attitude, it's just sharing with you the gripes that I know some Reg Force troops have.  The decision did not impact me on a personal level one bit, but it did impact people who had worked for me in the past.  And it's my responsibility to understand what they gripe about and their concerns.
 
I'm sorry that there is an "opinion" the "X" is better than "Y".  I guess some need to do that "Differential Training" over again. 

I am currently in a Trade where 50% (Approx) of every Tour from the last 15 to 20 years has been filled by Reservists, with exactly the same training as their Reg Force counterparts; so don't use the words "commitment" or "dedication" to justify the bitching of some poor, down in the dumps, member of the CF, Reg or Reserve.
 
I (as reg force) would look at it this way...(and with no offense meant to our mo brethren)

Where are you more likely to have an exciting experience? Door gunner or BG/OMLT? BG/OMLT, yes you most likely will find yourself hunkered down behind a wall with AK rounds splashing all around you wishing you had listened to your parents..

Door gunner, hmm well on the numerous rides I took on the kandahar express, whether on yank, brit or dutch flights, I was never fired upon. Once on the ground however, terry taliban took pleasure in taking aim...*
I see it as kinda like  the CP jobs. Looks cool, seems cool, but in all reality, pretty boring. Let the reserves have it.

* I will ad a caveat that I am more than willing to be proven wrong by any tac hel types who have been overseas lately

 
Towards_the_gap said:
I (as reg force) would look at it this way...(and with no offense meant to our mo brethren)

Where are you more likely to have an exciting experience? Door gunner or BG/OMLT? BG/OMLT, yes you most likely will find yourself hunkered down behind a wall with AK rounds splashing all around you wishing you had listened to your parents..

Door gunner, hmm well on the numerous rides I took on the kandahar express, whether on yank, brit or dutch flights, I was never fired upon. Once on the ground however, terry taliban took pleasure in taking aim...*
I see it as kinda like  the CP jobs. Looks cool, seems cool, but in all reality, pretty boring. Let the reserves have it.

* I will ad a caveat that I am more than willing to be proven wrong by any tac hel types who have been overseas lately

Agreed.

Look at it in terms of training delta, and of skills/experience shelved in filling a spot. A job like door gunner is going to require anyone filling it to be trained to it from scratch. You could put a reg in that spot, but then it means his couple of years of full time training and experience - working with a real rifle company, with LAVs, with airmobile, with the more up to date kit and TTPs - is essentially 'wasted' for that tour. The guy who's slogged through RegF trainign exercises designed to turn him into an effective rifleman within a rifle platoon suddenly renders that training redundant by going into a spot where it's not made use of.

A reservist going on tour, however, doesn't come in through the door with most of that infantry training applicable to the contemporary operating environment. He might have a few years of weekend and summer exercises under his belt of recce, raids and platoon attacks, but it doesn't come clsoe to the skillset the reg has. So when the reservist suddenly gets 'name-out-of-a-hat'ted into a door gunner spot, less preexisting training value is lost.

Looking at it another way, if you were a rifle company commander, who would you rather give up to a spot like that- one of your Reg F corporals with a tour already under his belt, real combat experience, plenty of time working with LAVs and other RegF assets, and who has known guys in his company for years? Or a reservist who's been with you for maybe a few months and still has a lot to hoist aboard in operating in a rifle platoon or an OMLT det? You lose less of your investment by sending the reservist.

Yup, door gunner sounds like it was a pretty jammy go according to one of my buddies, but putting reservists in that spot is making most efficient use of manpower.

That said, if I were a RegF Pte or Cpl passed up for a tour riding around in Griffons in favour of a reservist, I'd probably bitch about it too. But my bitch would be grounded in self interest, not cold logic.


*I realize a lot of generalizations were made in this post. Please don't beat me.
 
Petamocto said:
2. Away from his wife and kids more often;

I'm going to have to disagree greatly with this point of yours. After doing over a year of workup training followed by a 7 month tour. For workup I was only able to see my wife strictly on weekends in which I would drive 7 hours each way only to spend Saturday together.... where she would work for 8 hours during the day. Additionally spending the same time away in Texas, spending the same time away in Wainwright. Whereas the Reg Force counterparts most evenings during the week could go home to their loved ones. The real kicker was the forced family day in Petawawa where all of us Reservists had to wait for the end of the festivities to be able to finally drive those 7 hours to see our wives and families for the weekend.

 
...don't forget about those of us posted (reg) on imposed restriction.
I too spent only weekends wiht my family.
 
Brihard said:
A reservist going on tour, however, doesn't come in through the door with most of that infantry training applicable to the contemporary operating environment. He might have a few years of weekend and summer exercises under his belt of recce, raids and platoon attacks, but it doesn't come clsoe to the skillset the reg has. So when the reservist suddenly gets 'name-out-of-a-hat'ted into a door gunner spot, less preexisting training value is lost.

*I realize a lot of generalizations were made in this post. Please don't beat me.

Not bad post, but the above paragraph about the Reservist coming through the door ...etc. etc. is crap.  They probably have more experience than the Reg Force members in the platoon fresh out of BMQ and DP1.  Many may even be on their second or third Tour as well......and yes there have been a lot of generalizations in this discussion.

 
George Wallace said:
Not bad post, but the above paragraph about the Reservist coming through the door ...etc. etc. is crap.  They probably have more experience than the Reg Force members in the platoon fresh out of BMQ and DP1.  Many may even be on their second or third Tour as well......and yes there have been a lot of generalizations in this discussion.

Of the roughly 40 members of my regiment who deployed on 3-08, the majority of us had no prior operational experience. Off the top of my head I can think of one guy who'd previously done Afghanistan as battlegroup and a few who had done Bosnia in various positions. I'd say perhaps fifteen percent of our guys had previous tours.

Also, reserve training tends to focus very much on the basics- we spend a lot of time doing section attacks, recce patrols, and so on and so forth. We don't do much live fire stuff at all. We don't do much training in less traditional types of ops that are more applicable to the COE- urban patrolling, cordon and search, mechanized or airmobile work, etc etc. Mostly what we walk into workup with is basic soldier skills- the reserves have little training time or real subject matter expertise to impart much more than that on us.

Further, look at the workup timelines. For 3-08 the battlegroup got 16-18 months of workup training, with the exception of a small number of individual augmentees who came in later. By the time stream 2 (the bulk of the reserve augmentation) showed up in September, the battlegroup had, at least at the platoon and perhaps company level, been training together for most of half a year already. The workup training timelines for stream 2 pers have shrunk as well, so while battlegroup is still getting a long workup training, reserve augmentees for stream 2 are showing up a number of months closer to deployment now. I think it is very fair to say that there is a significant skill and training delta between a reservist coming in and a reg who is already a member of the rifle platoon over a year out from deployment, even if he has just come off his basic.  The experience differential between a reservist who's been doing class A and relevant class B for 3 or 4 years is very quickly made up by someone who's spent even six or eight months in the regs.

The main point I'm trying to make is that, early to midway in the workup training process, it's less of a loss of training investment to task a reservist out to another organization that's headhunting than it is to send someone from the regs. And I would would also posit that if a spot like door gunner were to be given to RegF Inf, it probably would not be that guy right off his BMQ/DP1 who gets it.

I think it's a bit questionable of you to say that my comments are 'crap'. I don't just make this stuff up. I'm well aware of the nature of the reservists going on tour. By the time 1-10 is out the door, my regiment will have sent well over 80 to Afghanistan, many of whom I've worked with or have trained.

Absolutely, reservists can and have integrated well into battlegroup, and have also formed other organizations like CIMIC and PSYOPS that have frequently found themselves in some tough spots. But also realize that most of the guys going to these spots are either getting a lot of workup training, or have gone through selection to pick the best candidates for these organizations (e.g., PSYOPS). In the majority of cases I thinik it's fair to say that it is less value lost to pull a reservist from battlegroup and send them to a random spot than a trained and likely experienced RegF infanteer.
 
Towards_the_gap said:
* I will ad a caveat that I am more than willing to be proven wrong by any tac hel types who have been overseas lately
Good luck trying to get that info from any of the Tac Hel types.  That would be a huge breach of opsec.
 
Towards_the_gap said:
Door gunner, hmm well on the numerous rides I took on the kandahar express, whether on yank, brit or dutch flights, I was never fired upon.

I will only point out to you that these were examples of one type of mission.

Some of the others have been reported in the media, and have been copied somewhere on this Site.
 
Petamocto said:
I haven't once said that I disagree with the CoC's decision; all I have said is that I fully understand why a Reg Force soldier would be p!ssed about it (and I have heard more than a dozen coffee room discussions about this).

As you said, this topic has already been beaten into submission and I really have nothing new.  Just the typical for Regs:

1. Gives up almost his entire life living away from his family and friends where he grew up;
2. Away from his wife and kids more often;
3. More than likely has to live in a place he doesn't like quality-of-life wise; and
4. By his very nature is more committed because it's full time.  His 25 year career will entail him only caring about one thing, not sharing interest with anything else.  All his qualifications will be Army-focused, and every book he reads about work will be about the Army.

That's where the Reg Force soldier usually gets his "greater-than-thou" mindset.  It's not literally thinking he is better than a Reservist, it's just that it's obvious: If person X is fully committed to something, and person Y is committed to two things, how can you make an argument that person Y is as committed to what X is committed to?

MedTech,

Again, it has nothing to do with attitude, it's just sharing with you the gripes that I know some Reg Force troops have.  The decision did not impact me on a personal level one bit, but it did impact people who had worked for me in the past.  And it's my responsibility to understand what they gripe about and their concerns.

Proof that self entitled dinosaurs still walk the earth.
 
ArmyRick said:
This seems to be a reg f vs reserve flame out again.

Yup and now being watched closely by Mods not yet engaged. Play nice kiddies. I for one do not want to see a potentially useful and informative thread tossed.
 
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