Drug use by Iraqi Insurgents

[x westie]

I was watch the A&E presentation of "Lima Co. a USMC reserve unit in Iraqi, one incident that really stands out is the use of drugs by these terrorists to hype themselves up, these marines told of finding, and it was also shown, vials of drugs with needles{ Adrenalin vials}, also Syrian money, on the bodies of dead terrorists, one marine said that even though one terrorist had taken many hits from M-16's he was still trying to reach for his weapon, pretty vivid description of the kind of people are over there, don't know if this is peculiar to only Iraq, and Taliban in Afghanistan are into this sh**t too.

 

[TN2IC]

I seen that show too. It was really intresting. It was on Saturday night.

 

[Armymatters]

Reminds me of a story where German soldiers were issued Meth and other drugs during World War II to "enhance" their combat performance.

 

[C and P]

Reminds me of propaganda.

 

[medicineman]

Brit commandos were issued with Benzedrine tablets to stay awake for prolonged periods in the Second World War.

I've also read and seen interviews with cops that had shootings involving people on various drugs such as PCP and high doses of narcotic painkillers that just didn't respond as one would expect to getting shot, as their bodies and brains had a bit of a disconnect going on.

MM

 

[Enzo]

Canadian soldiers used to be issued Rum, whatever happened to that eh?  ;D

Reminds me of propaganda.

Huh? Care to explain that statement a bit?

As for the use of stimulants/drugs to improve performance, I'm all for it. Euphoria meets invincibility; yeah, there's a solid combination that will lead to a successful combatant eh. All I think about that is proper shot placement. The only question that this subject brings to my mind is whether I should invest in a Barrett M468 upper for CQB? (I hope I'm not crossing any lines with this picture. It isn't my intention to promote this product for any gain, etc.)

We have armour, they have stimulants. Why doesn't that strike me as inappropriate?  :

 

[C and P]

The show was made for U.S. consumption. I just find it interesting the link between Terrorists and drug use. As for stimulants, the pilot who dropped the bomb at Tarnak Farms brought that up as a possible contributing factor for his mistake. (that he was hyped up on uppers.)  As for your firearms masturbation problem I can't help you there pal.

 

[GAP]

There has been a history of drug use in the form of alcohol, marijuana, uppers, etc by North American and European troops. OK, so they are human. Good or bad it is there.

They found some similar stuff on the insurgents. OK

There probably has not been a group of fighters that has not done something.

The question is: Why is this supposedly an indication of their stamina?

There are heroic stories of American and Canadian troops in dire situations that have achieved phenomenal feats down through the ages. Was it done on drugs.

No, it done by training, determination and adrenalin. I have seen truly heroic acts preformed by men on the field of battle, and none of them were on drugs. I have also seen similar acts preformed by the enemy I was fighting and we could only wonder at the stamina it took to accomplish them. Was he on drugs? All we found were some letters and  some rice balls. (Must of consumed them all)

I just don't want us to jump to the conclusion that because there is some drug use, therefore ALL Insurgents use drugs. Right or wrong, depending on which side you are talking to, there is a belief in what you are doing and the motivation to do it.

 

[TN2IC]

Canadian soldiers used to be issued Rum, whatever happened to that eh? 

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/036-35_e.asp

Now you know.

 

[Enzo]

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/036-35_e.asp

Now you know.

I was being sarcastic, but thanks TN21C.

C & P: You're welcome to your opinion and I for one would like to thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts. I appreciate your input and I only wish that you would put similar energy into completing enough of your profile so that I might take you seriously. As you haven't I suspect that you are a troll sir. Regardless, I'll take a moment to rebut. But first, I'd like to recommend that you explain yourself, otherwise you're just providing fragmented thoughts. The show was made for U.S. consumption. Of course it was. But what are you inferring? I just find it interesting the link between Terrorists and drug use. As do I, uh, anything further to add to that? As for stimulants, the pilot who dropped the bomb at Tarnak Farms brought that up as a possible contributing factor for his mistake. (that he was hyped up on uppers.) Maj. Schmidt is well documented on his thoughts over that matter and has yet to apologize for his "mistake". The fact that he disobeyed orders, well, there's another forum dedicated to that individual. What does that have to do with the display of pharmaceuticals which were taken from the insurgents bodies? If you have any information which you would like to share regarding the insurgents and their use of stimulants, I for one would be quite interested to look at it.

Finally. In regards to your last sentence.

As for your firearms masturbation problem I can't help you there pal.

I don't know you. I am not your "pal". What I am is someone who has lived long and well enough to deserve the same amount of respect that I am now extending to you. The 6.8mm SPC cartridge has been in trials with the US Forces for a brief time and may be a replacement option for many serving overseas. The upper is interchangable with many M-16 variants and allows for the quick transition to a larger diameter bullet that has shown to have improved "stopping power" which could be a deciding factor in MOUT; especially if the opposition is using stimulants or wearing armour. Such information may be of relevance to any soldier who may be required to defend his life; aside from that, shot placement is still paramount. Therefore, as the penetration of the 5.56mm round when used against a soft target,i.e., human, has come into question in Iraq, it is of related interest and is why I felt compelled to include it within this thread.

I understand that the anonymity of the internet allows for the use of such disrespect, language and behaviour; but it's a method that you may want to reconsider for future posts.

Cheers...

 

[paracowboy]

the Afghan population is one of the highest drug-using in the world. When surrounded by mind-numbing poverty, and constant violence, it's no surprise that so many turn to mind-altering substances.

They use a form of "chewing tobacco" with hashish or opium in it. Many smoke hashish or opium. Again, not surprising since they live in the nation that produces the most, and highest-grade of each.

As for Iraqi terrorists using drugs, that not surprising either. The term "assassin" comes from the word 'hashishan' which dates back centuries in the Middle East. Look it up, it's fascinating stuff. Terror network that reached well into Europe.

Terrorists in the '60s & '70s were constantly abusing chemicals of various types to create courage where none exists. Why would they not, now?

Further, products made from the fermentation of grape or wheat is strictly forbidden by the Quran. It's been taken to mean no alcohol is permitted. People being what they are, it's hardly shocking that Muslims would find other means to escape reality.

edited because  I'm an idiot who can't spell ''hashishan''

 

[C and P]

Sorry to tick you off. I was Being facetious . As for the profile I filled it. I'm not trying to conceal myself. I didn't know the rules. Say, now that you mention it, your profile is somewhat brief.

 

[Enzo]

No worries, I didn't get that at the time; kind of irked me I suppose. You're right about my profile, I should put some time into it myself. It's been like that a long time I suppose, I'll put it on my to do list.

Cheers...

 

[coachron]

Enzo:  I am a bit new to some of the terminology you use:  shot placement, "stopping power,"  and soft targets, i.e. humans.  Please develop those themes just a bit.  I take it that a larger calibre weapon is recommended which with careful placement of the shot will deliver more stopping power to the soft target, i.e., the human, drugged or undrugged.  Speaking of the drugs, I had the same reaction as C and P to the U.S. Marines contention that the enemy fights while drugged.  It sounded like the usual U.S. military propaganda designed to demonize and dehumanize the enemy, familiar to those who were fed a steady diet of same after the American invasion of Southeast Asia.  Perhaps you can point to some evidence that consuming drugs of one kind or another will make the enemy harder to stop.  I would have assumed that bullets will tear apart the flesh of the drugged no less remorselessly than the undrugged.  But it is probably beside the point.

The documentary focused as it should on the huge costs suffered by the marines and their families from Columbus, Ohio who, even if they did arrive home safely from Iraq, are left with deep wounds of one kind or another. I detected no celebration or enjoyment on the part of those who shot dead the Iraqi insurgent on drugs.  I think John Lennon got it about right:  Give Peace a Chance!  Bring em home!

 

[C and P]

Thank's for the support coachron. 

 

[George Wallace]

  Perhaps you can point to some evidence that consuming drugs of one kind or another will make the enemy harder to stop.  I would have assumed that bullets will tear apart the flesh of the drugged no less remorselessly than the undrugged. 

My, my, coachron, you are on a roll.  The "fact that bullets will tear apart the flesh of the drugged no less remorselessly than the undrugged" is not the point.  The point is, and it has been documented by many Police Forces in Canada and abroad, that many drugged up individuals when shot continue to attack.  They don't realize that they have been injured and they continue to advance, like 'zombies'.  The same can be said of Professional Athletes who take pain killers and land up doing more damage to bone and muscle by playing when they should not.  These are all documented facts.  I am surprised that as "coachron" you didn't realize this.

 

[paracowboy]

My, my, coachron, you are on a roll.  The "fact that bullets will tear apart the flesh of the drugged no less remorselessly than the undrugged" is not the point.  The point is, and it has been documented by may Police Forces in Canada and abroad, that many drugged up individuals when shot continue to attack.  They don't realize that they have been injured and they continue to advance, like 'zombies'.  The same can be said of Professional Athletes who take pain killers and land up doing more damage to bone and muscle by playing when they should not.  These are all documented facts.  I am surprised that as "coachron" you didn't realize this.

not too mention the use of drugs to enstill fanatical courage and dull pain by forces around the globe, and dating back millenia. The Moros tribesmen in the Phillipines, the Mau Mau and Simbas of Africa, the Chinese in Korea.

Bring 'em home indeed. Once they have achieved their Aim.

 

[a_majoor]

Stimulating yourself before entering battle has been around as long as recorded history. The Ancient Greeks would line up, see the priest disembowel an animal and forcast the results of the battle (oddly, both sides would get a "Go get 'em team, Victory is ours!), listen to the Strategoi's inspiring speech, drink down a ration of uncut wine, then don armour and lumber into battle. The chanting of various barbarian tribes fighting the Romans was considered to be how they stroked up their courage (sort of mass conditioning), just another means of achieving the same end.

Looking at articles about modern suicide bombers, it seems some are under the influence of drugs, but most are conditioned by being separated from their friends and companions and under close scrutiny/indoctrination by their terror cell. On our side, the close association of the team builds a spiritual bond which also helps the soldier stay motivated under extreme stress. Humans, being human, will do what they think it takes to achieve their goals, and certainly not all of our soldiers are on the side of the angels either.

Resorting to artificial stimulation may be a reasonable response to short term emergencies, and perhaps advances in pharmaceuticals and sports medicine might allow for some real advances in a solder's individual performance. If we go that route, it will be much different from crazed fighters high on PCP or whatever who can absorb the impact of bullets without their brain being aware of the fact just yet.

As a historical BTW, the Moro warriors in the Philippines were reputed to be high on drugs or some sort of adrenaline high, leading to the adoption of the .45 cal Colt M-1911 automatic pistol in US service. The .45 was considered powerful enough to take down even a crazed warrior when a .38 could not. The larger calibre rifle round being mentioned is interesting, since it is about the same size as the so called "ideal" round for an LMG. Other alternatives in CQB would include 12 gague shotguns firing 00 magnum shot.....

 

[Enzo]

Enzo:  I am a bit new to some of the terminology you use:  shot placement, "stopping power,"  and soft targets, i.e. humans.  Please develop those themes just a bit.  I take it that a larger calibre weapon is recommended which with careful placement of the shot will deliver more stopping power to the soft target, i.e., the human, drugged or undrugged.

No problem Coach, the simple way to think of it is this. Sometimes the human body is capable of almost superhuman endurance. No two people are alike. In regards to physical damage, one individual may expire due to what may be considered a minor injury (quite literally a broken toe) while another may continue to function regardless of the mortal wounds that they have received until they "bleed out" - when the blood pressure falls to such a low level due to a lack of fluid that the heart is unable to continue providing said blood to the vital organs, etc. Introduce certain stimulants and drugs into the equation and you now have an individual who is artificially stimulated and is of enormous danger considering the altered state that they are in. Case in point, Miami in the early 90s. Metro Dade Police served a warrant on a known drug dealer who was considered armed and dangerous. The dealer ingested a large amount of cocaine and PCP as the team entered his premises and a gun fight ensued. The dealer managed to withstand multiple hits and returned in kind with a 9mm Uzi killing 2 officers and wounding others. The dealer was finally brought down when a SWAT officer managed to close the range and scored 2 hits from a 12 gauge shotgun using slugs. The dealer was shot a total of 33 times, many of those wounds were mortal which means that even with medical attention, he likely would not have survived. The current record holder that I'm aware of is a convicted drug dealer in California currently serving a life sentence; he survived 38 hits (don't ask me how, the doctors are still trying to figure that one out).

In regard to our profession:

"Soft Target" vs. "Hard Target" - To keep this simple, a tank would be considered a hard target, whereas a human is soft, get it? I can go into further detail, but I consider that to be explanatory.

"Shot placement" & "Stopping Power" - When you place the bullet into the target; accuracy matters. If you do not score a vital hit, then the target will not cease activity. Generally, the brain, heart, brain stem, spine, etc. result in a cessation of said activity. This brings us to "stopping power". If you shoot a person in the stomach with a .22LR, then the odds that this person will be incapacitated are low - which means they will likely be able to continue the fight. If you shoot the same individual in the brain with a .22LR, then the likely result is incapacitation - which means that they likely won't be able to continue the fight. Same bullet, different "shot placement". The .22LR is not a combat cartridge, but is still capable of incapacitation. This is considered to be a cartridge with a low "stopping power" - placement is more vital with this round. A 12.7mm cannon round fired from the LRSW (Long Range Sniper Weapon - http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/lf/English/2_0_35.asp?uSubSection=35&uSection=2) is considered to be a cartridge capable of incapacitation almost regardless of where the round impacts - a knick to the arm may likely result in the loss of the appendage, if not death due to the high velocity and energy of the round. Bear in mind, this was originally a cartridge designed for use against vehicles, i.e., tanks & armoured cars. The 5.56mm NATO cartridge in use with US & Canadian Forces has come into question due to the performance against humans recently. This cartridge is designed for a wide spectrum of use, from "thin skinned" vehicles such as cars and light trucks, etc. to people wearing ballistic protection, i.e., armour. In this matter, the round is found to be "overpenetrating" - passing through the target, which is of concern in MOUT (Military Operations in Urban Terrain) due to the nature of the civilians in the area who may be beyond the target; in this manner, failing to incapacitate the target. Further follow up shots are then required to be certain that the target is "down", i.e., incapacitated. The danger inherent is that you will shoot your target, see him fall and then move on to the next only to find that he is still functioning and a danger to yourself or a section mate.

Those are the rough definitions. In Iraq, the US have been reintroducing the M14 (7.62mm NATO) as an alternative to the M16 in certain conditions - bigger bullet, more energy. There is interest in some circles to return to larger calibre firearms, but funds and development are limited and most of this attention will most likely not result in any major changes anytime soon. The focus may be on increasing the potential of the cartridge for the M16 (the MK262 cartridge is reportedly performing decently) in conjunction with newer armour, vehicles, anti-IED devices, etc. Where you'll find the "uppers" (complete barreled upper receiver in another calibre such as the 6.8mm SPC, 6.5mm Grendel or even a .50 cal Beowolf, that can be installed upon the existing M4-M16 variant in seconds with ease) being used may very well be with SF units and PMF (Private Military Force) contractors who have more input over individual and unit firearm aquisition. The advantages inherent are the ability to carry essentially 2 firearms in one for differing roles, i.e., long range engagement & CQB (Close Quarter Battle).

If opposition combatants are stimulating themselves in order to perform better in combat, then our forces require the tools to ensure that they will be able to meet this threat head on. Having reliable ammunition that ensures incapacitation is paramount to their safety.

 

[coachron]

[If you shoot a person in the stomach with a .22LR, then the odds that this person will be incapacitated are low - which means they will likely be able to continue the fight.  If you shoot the same individual in the brain with a .22LR, then the likely result is incapacitation - which means that they likely won't be able to continue the fight.]

So it is good practice generally to shoot the person in the head?  It must be kind of hard to do that.