Dual Role Elcan sight

[McG]

Has anyone fired the Elcan SpecterDR?  I had a look at one the other day and thought it appeared a fairly good scope, but it was not even on a rifle so there is only so much of an assessment possible.  It has an illuminated aiming mark and a toggle switch to move it between  x4 and x1 magnification.

http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_Business_Areas/Sighting_Systems/Products/Day_Sights/SpecterDR.php

http://www.elcan.com/ELCAN_News/Bulletins/070403_SOCOM.php

 

[NavyShooter]

Expect to get hands on with one in the next few days....well, hands on at a range that is.

Saw one that had 15,000 rounds fired under it in testing, it was still in fully functional shape.

There's a review on AR15.com about it too for further reading.

NS

 

[Armymedic]

Interesting, a 4x and 1x power scope for our rifles.

Looks like it can work for almost anything. What more would a modern combat soldier want?

here is that review:
http://www.ar15.com/content/products/sights/elcan/index.html

 

[Yeoman]

I've discussed this with people who have real world experience (not range queens) and well they all said it sucked.
too much shiny, not enough killy basically.
the 1zoom ain't really a 1zoom. more of a 1.5
take a look what kind of mount is on there? gee what makes us loose the zeros on the issued ones?!?
to switch from 1 to 4 zoom, the zero can be lost from time to time.
the scope itself moves around, hence another way to loose zero.
so don't bother. shiny? yes killy? no

 

[brihard]

On that note, anyone here seen the flip-to-side mounted 3x or 4x magnifiers for the EOTech? I saw 'em at CANSEC and will be investigating them further... It's on an ARMS mount that will quick detach, but can also flip off to the side (spring loaded) and simply be out of the way at the push of the button, and then you just flip it back to where it was for magnification again. Coupled with the .223 ballistic reticle (specced for carbine ballistics) on the 557, it seems on first impression to be versatile.

Has anyone gotten any trigger time on this system and have any input?

 

[KevinB]

Nice concept poor execution -- both USSOC and CANSOF (or whatever were calling today) have experimented with it.

The zero will not hold in several areas
1) Mount - ARMS levers are not the best method for a sight (go Larue  )
2) Magnification lever --- the system starts to become sloppy and the zero is no longer the same at 1 and at 4x

  The 7th Gen of this sight now has a Dr Optic on the top middle and two iron sights (one on each side of the Dr) so the operator no longer has to chnage the sight to 1x (which is basically like adding a Dr Optic to a M145 Elcan anyway if you think of it...)
  [ The M145 is the US one with the battery lit reticle - a crosshair reticle with a BDC scribed on the reticle]

Its a nice sight -- and I got one to fool around with -- but I wont be taking it anyway I might have to use it for real...

Maybe in a few more generations...

 

[KevinB]

Okay (a few people PM'd me) I will explain some of the issues in the open here.

ARMS mounts -- the cam to the receiver using a MIM (yuck) throw lever (MIM is Metal Injected Moulding - sorta like the Die Cast cars of way back - its a cheap and easy method -- but does leaves bubbles and potential weaknesses in the structure) -- there is also a teflon cover "no marr" pad that the MIM Lever cams against - to push the mount down and in - however since the upper is HCA III (Type 3 Hard Coat Annodized) its a bit rough and much harder than the Teflon covered light steel tab) -- when the Tab wear down the pressure against the side of the rail is lessened.  The result is at first a change in zero -- and latter a sloppy fit and no real zero.
  Units have been using pieces of aluminum can to shim the tab so it is firm against the reciever.

Also Dick Swan (the owner of ARMS) is a Nazi - he worships the 3rd SS and has a shitload of uniforms etc -- to the point of being obsessed.  So I boycott ARMS products on that basis as well as they are inferior to newer systems (specifically the Larue Tactical throw lever -- which is polished steel and adjustable)
 
On the Spectre DR -- when the magnification lever is moved - it rotates a prism that couples the X4 magnifier.  When the unit is subject to adverse condictions and a lot of recoil the prism comes "off kilter"and the alignment is not on -- so the zero from non maginifed to magnified is not the same.

  This is then where the DR Optic Mini Red Dot was added to the top of the sight -- so one could reduce the amount of times the mag lever is flipped.

I have no doubt that the sight will eventually be ready for the big time -- but I have some great concerns that it could be issued to early.


Add it it suffers from the same external adjustment mount issues of the normal ELCAN series --- any impacts are trasnfered to the windage and elevation screws -- which also due to beign exposed will accumulate the "poo" dust which acts like sandpaper and wears down the intially fine and tight adjustments - to a sloppy system that will not hold a zero.

  This may be acceptable to two sorts of unit -- the ones that due to budgeting leniency will use the scope for a short deployment and get a new one upon return.  Or units that never really use their sights - and use them as a drill ornament.

(R, A, or C; if I missed anything mail me)

 

[DirtyDog]

I-6, have you heard much about these?

http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=531&back_row=4&categoryID=3

Would you say this would make a good, all round, versatile optic?

 

[KevinB]

Funny you mentioned that 
Circa March 2002.

Somewhere I have one at work with a can on it.

And from a buddy in 5th Group doing some of the testing for USSOC.

and the Dr that center mounts. (from me)

 

[DirtyDog]

How did you aim that 203?  Was it set up for a left hander?


If you had to buy (and use) just one optic for use on a c7/c8 would the ACOG/Doc combo be a good choice?  What about some sort of Aimpoint combo?

 

[KevinB]

It had a KAC reflex quadrant on the other side.


Optics are a mission dependant issue.  My pick oneoptic is the S&B Short Dot, but it has draw backs too -- so its not for everyone.

I tried a bunch of different things --

I don't like the TA01NSN - due to the fact the "amber" reticle is closer to white and grey's out in period of twilight.

I think the TA11/TA31 series is good -- I lent one to the Inf School to play with for a bit in 2004. 
The TA31DOC solves some problems -- but creates the same issues as the TA01NSN - with muscle memory confusion with two different head positions.

NightForce has a good 1-4 like the ShortDot (they dont sell the same scope to civilians though -- so it needs to be a unit buy direct)


I prefer the EOTECH to the Aimpoint -- but thats just me -- I know guys who are 100% opposite.

  The other issue is do you accept the fact we are in a 300m World - and that your primary role should be id and engagements of tgt's inside 300M.  IF you know your gun and can rely on team mates for tgt ID and in some cases tgt indication -- then the 1x CCO's are fine. 

If I had a limited budget - and needed a good simple combat scope -- I would go EOTECH -- and practise with it. 
I would accept that I would suffer tgt resolution and descrimination - and gain a reliable CQB optic

 

[PhilB]

Based on what you are saying Kev, and also what I have learned on LF and 1-06 I am getting an Eotech for 1-08. What are your thoughts on 3x mags, be it Aimpoint or the new Eotech? I think that with a good flip to the side mount this combo would solve a lot of the problems/scenarios you mentioned in the above post. Any thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[KevinB]

Personally -- I view the magnifiers as a waste.

IMHO if you think your needing a magnified sight -- get one, and dont dick around with the magnifiers.  -- But I only played with one for two days and it just seemed - ungainly.

I found the pic but it was on my ARF gallery -- and thus I cannot host it inline -- just a link to it.

http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=17310

 

[brucekie]

I figured this would be a good place to ask this. Does any one know any thing about the Millett DMS scope, I know its alot cheaper that the S&B short dot, but is it low quality or somewhat okay. I realize it wont be completely comparable to the S&B but I want to know if it is complete junk or not.

 

[KevinB]

I beleive one of the 2VP Sgt's bought one to trial and decided after a range trip -- it may be good for simple paper -- but was in no way an acceptable idea to mount on a service weapon.
Sadly there is not free lunch -- it take money to get good glass, shock proofing, lens coatings and quality adjustments.