Dumb ex-army guy needs Navy and Air Force info help

[ArmyRick]

Hello Gang,

Need your help. Search function was not really helpful. Or my simple primate brain can't figure key words. To be honest, the government official websites are not help either and wikipedia has almost nothing. My oldest son is a home school student (due to his moderate autism, we choose to homeschool him from grade 9 onwards).
Anyways, he is approaching his Dad imposed learn about the Armed Forces module (pre Nov 11). I have the army covered due to my own knowledge plus my old PD material explaining how brigades are organized and operate.

So now the help I need. I have tried looking up basic info about Air Force squadrons (organization, how they operate at a basic level) and whatever the Navy does (All I truly know is their is a bunch of ships, divers, guys in small boats in Halifax and Victoria), like I have zero clue how they are organized, who does what. Can you guys give me a basic breakdown of how the navy is set up?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Can't tell you much about the air force but I can tell you a bit about the Navy.

Navy actually has two separate organizations in Ship. They are called the Fighting Organization and the Functional Organization.

Functional Organization: Based upon a departmental structure and delineates lines of responsibility for technical readiness, administration, and the security and custody of the ship while alongside

Fighting Organization: Allows the ship to fight and operate as a warship. It is configured and controlled by the Ship’s Watch and Station Bill and the Special Parties and RAS Boards.

The functional Organization on a Warship looks like this:

Command - CO, XO, Coxswain
Departments: Marine Systems Engineering, Combat System Engineering, Deck, Operations, Logistics, Air Det (if embarked).

The Fighting Organization is based on the Watch & Station Bill which is basically a list of where you go and what Job you are doing during various evolutions of the Ship.

It's a big spreadsheet with different jobs and a name assigned to it.

In the fighting Org you've got:

Command
Ops
Bridge Team
Emergency Response Team Org - keep the ship fighting
Damage Control Org - keep the ship floating
Casualty Care Teams - Medics/stewards/etc
Air Det - Fly the Chopper

There is a lot more to it than that but I hope that clears a few things up.

The Teams also change depending on what you're doing so Emergency Stations will look different than Action Stations, etc.


You've also got what's called States of Readiness and States of Preparedness which influences things like who is closed up, state of weapon systems, etc.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Kind of surprised I even remembered all of that

 

[FSTO]

Bogie got the ship part pretty much wrapped up.
The Navy can deploy as an individual ship or as part of a task group or task force.
Until Op Apollo destroyed the navy we tried to maintain a TG consisting of 2 frigates, a 280 (AAW/C2) and an AOR on each coast.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

There is no such thing as a standard air force squadron. They are all organized differently, based on aircraft and role.

 

[ArmyRick]

There is no such thing as a standard air force squadron. They are all organized differently, based on aircraft and role.

OK, thanks for that. Makes sense. An infantry battalion, artillery regiment, armoured, etc are all very different.
So to help me out, I see on the RCAF web site there are Fighter squadrons, SAR squadrons, transport squadrons, Maritime squadrons, etc.

So how might a typical CF18 fighter squadron or a Herc squadron look like? Is a SAR squadron different? Who operates the airfields? Sorry, very ignorant on this.

 

[ArmyRick]

Can't tell you much about the air force but I can tell you a bit about the Navy.

Navy actually has two separate organizations in Ship. They are called the Fighting Organization and the Functional Organization.

Functional Organization: Based upon a departmental structure and delineates lines of responsibility for technical readiness, administration, and the security and custody of the ship while alongside

Fighting Organization: Allows the ship to fight and operate as a warship. It is configured and controlled by the Ship’s Watch and Station Bill and the Special Parties and RAS Boards.

The functional Organization on a Warship looks like this:

Command - CO, XO, Coxswain
Departments: Marine Systems Engineering, Combat System Engineering, Deck, Operations, Logistics, Air Det (if embarked).

The Fighting Organization is based on the Watch & Station Bill which is basically a list of where you go and what Job you are doing during various evolutions of the Ship.

It's a big spreadsheet with different jobs and a name assigned to it.

In the fighting Org you've got:

Command
Ops
Bridge Team
Emergency Response Team Org - keep the ship fighting
Damage Control Org - keep the ship floating
Casualty Care Teams - Medics/stewards/etc
Air Det - Fly the Chopper

There is a lot more to it than that but I hope that clears a few things up.

The Teams also change depending on what you're doing so Emergency Stations will look different than Action Stations, etc.


You've also got what's called States of Readiness and States of Preparedness which influences things like who is closed up, state of weapon systems, etc.

Thank you, very eye opening. So are ships grouped together to form a squadron or group or something? Is the Port like the service battalion?

My naval experience is this. In 2VP while training with USMC in 1996 Camp Lejeune (Ex Cooperative Osprey) we spent a night on the USS Pensacola. And I did lots of stuff in our inflatable boats. That sums up my navy experience.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Kind of surprised I even remembered all of that

 

[FSTO]

Thank you, very eye opening. So are ships grouped together to form a squadron or group or something? Is the Port like the service battalion?

CANFLTPAC/LANT are the two organizations that run the fleets on the coasts. That are subordinate to MARPAC/LANT.
Fleet Maintenance Facilities Cape Breton/Scott are the organizations that provide repair support.

 

[Lumber]

Thank you, very eye opening. So are ships grouped together to form a squadron or group or something? Is the Port like the service battalion?

My naval experience is this. In 2VP while training with USMC in 1996 Camp Lejeune (Ex Cooperative Osprey) we spent a night on the USS Pensacola. And I did lots of stuff in our inflatable boats. That sums up my navy experience.

One interesting this about the functional vs fighting organization is who your boss is changes based on which organization is currently "active". In the functional organization, the departments are broken up into sections, and those sections are generally all of the same trade. So, if you are a S1 NCIOP, you direct supervisor is a MS NCIOP, who answerS to a PO2 NCIOP, who answers to a PO1 NCIOP. However, when the fighting organization is in effect, that same S1 NCIOP works directly for a PO1 NESOP (or a Lt(N) did NWO). A few WEng Techs, who come from a completely different department in the functional organization, actually work for that same PO1 NESOP in the fighting organization.

To answer your question, how naval ships are divided in the similar way to the above, although we don't call it fighting and functional. From an FG/Functional perspective, you have a Fleet (ie CANFLTLANT or 2nd Fleet), which can be further broken up to divisions or squadrons (I.e. Destroyer squadron, like DESRON 21). We don't dont really do that in Canada because we don't have enough ships, but we do have "MOGS" (maritime operations groups) which is normally where you find the MCDVs, subs, and divers, although I think they might have changed that to "Patrol Sqn" recently?

Once at sea and it's the "fighting" org (which may be FG or FE), the core grouping is called a Naval Task Group, or just "TG". This is a self sustaining fighting group that is expected to be able to fight alone in all warfare domains (assuming you have all the ships you need with all the capabilities you. Usually the TG is commanded by a Commodore, though if it's a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) it's usually a Rear Admiral. Sometimes, if your TG is big enough, some of those ships can be detached to do more focused missions, such as Surface Action Groups (SAGs) or Search and Attack Units (SAUs). Those sub-groups are commanded by one of the COs of one of the ships in the group. However, you can have SAGs and SAUs without first having a TG. You could put ships to sea specifically to be part of a SAG or SAU without first creating/attaching them to a larger TG.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

OK, thanks for that. Makes sense. An infantry battalion, artillery regiment, armoured, etc are all very different.
So to help me out, I see on the RCAF web site there are Fighter squadrons, SAR squadrons, transport squadrons, Maritime squadrons, etc.

So how might a typical CF18 fighter squadron or a Herc squadron look like? Is a SAR squadron different? Who operates the airfields? Sorry, very ignorant on this.

Generally, the Sqn will have an HQ- CO, DCO, SCWO, Admin O, flight safety O, etc.

Then, there will be the maintenance flight under the SAMEO. This will almost always be the largest flight in the Sqn with up to several hundred technicians.

An Ops Flight under the Ops O.

The Aircrew will be in one or several aircrew flights.

There might also be a training/readiness/standards flight.

 

[ArmyRick]

Generally, the Sqn will have an HQ- CO, DCO, SCWO, Admin O, flight safety O, etc.

Then, there will be the maintenance flight under the SAMEO. This will almost always be the largest flight in the Sqn with up to several hundred technicians.

An Ops Flight under the Ops O.

The Aircrew will be in one or several aircrew flights.

There might also be a training/readiness/standards flight.

Thanks. Very eye opening.

 

[Good2Golf]

Thanks. Very eye opening.

ArmyRick, tac hel squadrons look fairly Army-ish orbat-ish like a Bn, using Flight in place of Company: HQ/Ops Flt, A Flt, B Flt, C Flt, D Flt, Adm Flt, Log Flt, Maint Flt, Op Trg Flt. Supporting a Bde, on the Bdr net they would run under H9/A-E, H19/11/12, H29/21/22/2.., H39/31/32/3…, H4…, H1…, H5 or 7 for additional Op Flt or Op Trg flight. There is a lot of stuff packed into 4, especially a big one-off unit like the Chinook squadron, which has essential amounts to almost a Svc Coy-sized sub-unit which includes all the aircraft maintenance capability as well as a relatively robust RCEME-type function for the ground green fleet (a big Sqn can have 40-50+ green vehicles, including numerous HL fuelers and hiabs and stuff).

 

[Halifax Tar]

@ArmyRick think of a ship like a regiment. That regiment is made up of companies. Those companies are made up of sections.

For instance the Log Dep would be a Coy of a ship, and Fin, HR, Supply, NPF and Galley would be it's sections sections.

I didn't use platoons are our version of the sub company level aren't that big.

Also we don't have an Adj and and Admin O. Both those roles are filled by the Executive Officer (XO).

 

[Lumber]

@ArmyRick think of a ship like a regiment. That regiment is made up of companies. Those companies are made up of sections.

For instance the Log Dep would be a Coy of a ship, and Fin, HR, Supply, NPF and Galley would be it's sections sections.

I didn't use platoons are our version of the sub company level aren't that big.

Also we don't have an Adj and and Admin O. Both those roles are filled by the Executive Officer (XO).

@ArmyRick also the navy doesn't have Infantry and Infantry Support; wit has operators, and day workers...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

ArmyRick.

I think Lumber may have made it a little confusing for a neophyte like you.

Basically, what Humphrey Bogart explained about how a single ship works is reproduced at the whole navy level.

The RCN is headed by the Commander Royal Canadian Navy (CRCN) , headquartered in Ottawa. It looks after policy, personnel and procurement generally. Then, the rest of the RCN is split in two: The Pacific fleet, based in Esquimalt, under the administration of ComMarPAc (Commander Maritime forces Pacific), who is also responsible for all individual training in the RCN; and, the Atlantic fleet, based in Halifax, under the administration of ComMarLant (commander maritime forces Atlantic), who is also responsible for force generation (which is whole unit, i.e. ships, and above , i.e. group, training). This organization provides all services needed by the fleet, from supply, to engineering, maintenance, repairs and communications.

At the same time, you have an operational organization. As we use the American model, it consists of Task Forces (TF), within which there are Task Groups (TG), within which are Task Units (TU), within which there are Task Elements (TE). Those groupings are flexible and you throw in whichever military unit is required for the task at hand.

TF are given a number (such as TF 301), whithin which the Task groups are numbered (such as TG 301.1) and the TU are sub-numbered (such as TU 301.1.3), etc. etc. The command relationship and the "content" of each of those are set up in the operation order covering any deployment.

IIRC, we have, as the basic operational org in Canada, four Task Forces: 301 and 305 on the east Coast (Halifax) and 302 and 304 on the West Coast (Esquimalt). 301 and 302 are the blue water units, set for deployment around the world as needed, as CTG (Canadian Task Group), while TF 304 and 305 are for Canadian water units and ships under refit generally.

There is a third element, so to speak, which is ComNavRes, the Commander Naval Reserves, in Quebec City, who is at the same level as the other two commanders in relation to CRCN, and whose job is, I suggest, obvious.

Hope this clarifies some for you (and since I've been out for a while, I hope what I mentioned is still correct.)

 

[ArmyRick]

Thanks guys. This really did do a "Navy for dummies" breakdown for myself (I needed that). I think I have enough about the Air Force to run with too. The info helps.
My youngest son (the same one from the zip line video I posted a link to here) was touring the war museum in Ottawa, was very fascinated that I used a bunch of the equipment there and bought me a small book explaining some of the kit the CAF used since World War 1. I am hoping I can take my oldest son someday to see it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Thanks guys. This really did do a "Navy for dummies" breakdown for myself (I needed that). I think I have enough about the Air Force to run with too. The info helps.
My youngest son (the same one from the zip line video I posted a link to here) was touring the war museum in Ottawa, was very fascinated that I used a bunch of the equipment there and bought me a small book explaining some of the kit the CAF used since World War 1. I am hoping I can take my oldest son someday to see it.

When we talk about how Ship's themselves fight, it's easier to think of them all as single cell organisms with a particular specialization/area of expertise.

Each organism is able to influence a certain amount of terrain of the battlespace. Because Ships themselves have very sophisticated sensor suites and generate immense amounts of power (electrical) they are able to influence a far larger piece of the battlespace than a Tank or an Infantry Fighting Vehicle due to their ability to sense, detect and engage objects that are very far away.

Think of a Frigate as a really big tank/IFV... it's got a main gun, a few .50cals, a real big chain gun and then an assortment of missiles and torpedoes, each of those weapon systems has a range band and effective range associated with them. Employing them isn't much different than being a Rifle Company Commander deploying their weapons systems to achieve an effect.

Throw a couple of other Frigates together in a SAU or SAG and you've got a troop/Squadron.

 

[Navy_Pete]

When we talk about how Ship's themselves fight, it's easier to think of them all as single cell organisms with a particular specialization/area of expertise.

Each organism is able to influence a certain amount of terrain of the battlespace. Because Ships themselves have very sophisticated sensor suites and generate immense amounts of power (electrical) they are able to influence a far larger piece of the battlespace than a Tank or an Infantry Fighting Vehicle due to their ability to sense, detect and engage objects that are very far away.

Think of a Frigate as a really big tank/IFV... it's got a main gun, a few .50cals, a real big chain gun and then an assortment of missiles and torpedoes, each of those weapon systems has a range band and effective range associated with them. Employing them isn't much different than being a Rifle Company Commander deploying their weapons systems to achieve an effect.

Throw a couple of other Frigates together in a SAU or SAG and you've got a troop/Squadron.

This is a good analogy, but there is both an internal and external battle (which I think extends to an organism as well).

The external bit is pretty obvious (missiles, small boats, other ships, subs, etc), the internal is the part keeping the ship going when it takes damage (dealing with fires, floods, casualties, re-routing power etc). It's been a long time since the RCN has done any external battle, but the internal battle happens at least a few times a month in normal peacetime scenarios, as the ocean is a tough place at the best of times.

Honestly Star Trek does a great job showing all of this (although their stuff is far more high tech) in the episodes/movies where they start taking a lot of damage, and get repair parties, temporary infirmaries etc while still firing plasma torpedos, maintaining the shield and propulsion. We can't split off a saucer yet, but there is actually a list of things to start jettisonning and a ballasting plan if you need to take some extreme measures to stay upright, and if we need to there are some emergency power cable runs that you can do (which can take a few hours, so isn't meant for heat of the moment).

One big difference between other elements is there is a lot more secondary duties and general training, as everyone can do basic fire fighting and flood control, so while there are pretty defined roles during emergency/action stations, everyone can take initial action if things happen in their area.

Which is great when wiring shorts out in the ops room after a shock event, or a pipe lets go on the bridge (have seen both).

Similarly the ship's log department seems to be a lot more complete in a small team with what it can do compared army/air log, as they are used to operating without external support so they can do local contracting in ports, arrange for shipping, pers movements etc while still doing normal log system functions within the supply system. They remind me a lot of the stories my uncle had working as a bin rat in WW2, were he would occassionally do some kind of complicated favour based system to 'procure' things.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Similarly the ship's log department seems to be a lot more complete in a small team with what it can do compared army/air log, as they are used to operating without external support so they can do local contracting in ports, arrange for shipping, pers movements etc while still doing normal log system functions within the supply system. They remind me a lot of the stories my uncle had working as a bin rat in WW2, were he would occassionally do some kind of complicated favour based system to 'procure' things.

We have to be creative to make things work. The ships aren't getting younger and the Stoker's keep breaking them. Problem solving and networking are the 2 biggest attributes for a Naval Logistician.

It also doesn't help there is an almost institutional opposition to Logistics in the RCN.
We are dark arts magicians to be avoided.