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Dutch ships and designs and the possibilities for Canada

Underway said:
Not exactly correct and leads to a misunderstanding of the bids.  Though the gov't said they wanted a "proven design" to the press what they actually asked for was a "mature design".  As was explained to me this was somewhere on the line between napkin sketch of a ship to ship fully operational.  Hence why the Type 26 was allowed to compete.  The design is complete and the steel is being cut.  There is also the requirement to have Canadian requirements for the ship added.  This means that whatever ship we get won't quite be MOTS.  It's looking like these are in the MOTS+ category.  Mature design modified.

That was my thinking too,i mean that the City class(Type-26) is allowed to compete,and i think it will be a very nice ship,but very pricey tho.

I heared something of around 1.2 billion per ship;wow.

OTOH if it takes long enough maybe the M-class replacements(in final stages of design) can come in too(competition) >:D

They will be around the 600 million mark,way more affordable.Also ASW orientated.
 
serger989 said:
I was just reading the latest issue of CDR and they said Alion-Canada teamed up with DAMEN to supply Canada with the De Zeven Provincien Class ships. Alion is fairly unknown so it will be interesting if they are selected over the bigger names of the other bidders. I also wish Canada got 4x Karel Doorman JLSS ships :p Would have fulfilled the original JSS specs and 4 ship requirement. We could then ignore getting things like an amphibious assault ship because the 4 ships would have provided us with enough capability. Didn't know we had a shot to grab Walrus SSK's over the Oberons though, that would have been sweet! Though right now I am a huge fan of the Stirling AIP A26 SSK's.

You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.

You're Correct OGBD,plus from what i heared,when the Canadians looked at  the Walrus they were considered to expensive(then) at 500 million per boat(there was no money),so it was the Upholder for 800 million(all 4 of them)or probably nothing.

JSS(dutch)is not a "real" AOR ship,it can take some stores(fuel,goods,etc)not enough when a "real" AOR ship is needed.

In the last year it also is shared with the Germans,so the RNLN has a real need for a additional AOR-ship,it's been looked at right now.

Maybe something in the order of this 1;(just a "simple tanker"),around the 300 million Euros mark.

http://products.damen.com/-/media/Products/Images/Clusters-groups/Naval/Logistic-Support-Vessel/Logistic-Support-Vessel-Replenisher-16000/Top-image/Logistic_Support_Vessel_Replenisher_16000.jpg?h=767&la=en&w=1300

Which is the LSV R16000.(15800 tonns,Range 10000 nm,about 18 knts,but Navy wants it to go a bit faster,around the 20 knts,is possible)

Measurements: 165,50  x 24,00 x 7,30 m
Crew: 43 + 116

This ship has a reasonable Hospital,48 places,and can be taken offboard.

Helidek for 1 NH90
Hangar for2 NH90's

Cargo deck or 135 lane meters
F76 (Marine Diesel)    5100 t
F44 (Kerosene) 425 t
Cargo Stores    360 m²
Ammo Stores    300 m²
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
You didn't know because we never did, Serger:

The Walrus' were designed, then the first laid down in 1979 and launched up to 1985. That is fifteen years after we acquired the "O-boats". We purchased the "O-boats" in 1964, with deliveries from 1965 to 1967.

The Walrus' were considered for the replacement of the "O-boats" when the project got underway in 1986. Then the Mulroney government Defence minister asked the Navy to consider nuclear boats, and we looked (and were lobbied) at the French Rubis class and the British Trafalgar class. That put looking at diesel boats on the back burner. Then the wall came down, and so did the economy, and those ambitious plans of the Mulroney government came crashing down in deficit reduction efforts. The Navy tried to resuscitate the submarine program, but by then, Chretien's Liberal's were in power and, being "un Ptit-gars de Shawinigan-Trudeauist", he couldn't care less about the Navy (too British still in his mind) and couldn't understand why you would spend that much money on a submarine Canada didn't need, in his mind. We were lucky to manage to get the Upholders in as stop gap - even if it ended costing much more than it should have (if he had, for instance, accepted to buy them immediately when they were decommissioned and offers first by the RN).

Also, the Dutch JSS's are for logistical support, not amphibious assault per se. They do not have the capability to carry troops to carry out the assault. Their facilities are dedicated to housing the logistics personnel and support personnel (such as medical staff, rear area repairs personnel, technicians, etc.), not the fighting troops. So they can't replace the actual amphibs. That's why the Dutch Navy has the Rotterdam class ships for those functions. And the Dutch JSS were looked at for the original Canadian JSS program, but the Navy found them unsuitable  because they did not have the fuel transport capacity that the RCN wanted.

Oh lord my apologies... I meant Upholder/Victoria... Since I have had Oberon models since I was a kid, they are on my mind often! The nuclear subs never would have happened as they were, the US would have blocked France or UK from providing us with the means if it came down to it. At which point we would have to start our own indigenous reactor from scratch I would imagine $$$$$$$$$. In terms of the Karel Doorman, I just checked and it's got about 1000+ less tonnes of fuel/water, but couldn't we have "Canadianized" it to a point where we could use it for small amphib operations? The deck space is large, the cargo space is large, it has a steel beach stern construction, so it can still use LCAV and LCU at-sea can it not? All I am saying is, am I wrong to think it would be more versatile than the upcoming Queenston. I am also running under the assumption we would have obtained the original planned 4 JSS. But I didn't know that it lacked the proper fuel capacity for true AOR capability, interesting!
 
serger989 said:
Oh lord... I meant Upholder/Victoria... Since I have had Oberon models since I was a kid, they are on my mind often! The nuclear subs never would have happened as they were, the US would have blocked France or UK from providing us with the means if it came down to it. At which point we would have to start our own indigenous reactor from scratch I would imagine $$$$$$$$$. In terms of the Karel Doorman, I just checked and it's got about 1000+ less tonnes of fuel/water, but couldn't we have "Canadianized" it to a point where we could use it for small amphib operations? The deck space is large, the cargo space is large, it has a steel beach stern construction, so it can still use LCAV and LCU at-sea can it not? All I am saying is, am I wrong to think it would be more versatile than the upcoming Queenston. I am also running under the assumption we would have obtained the original planned 4 JSS. But I didn't know that it lacked the proper fuel capacity for true AOR capability, interesting!

Offcourse it's possible to Canadiaze the Dutch JSS,and yes you'll have a more versetile ship or ships(if 4)

Karel Doorman:(LCAV/LCU is idd possible)

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/JSS-Karel-Doorman-Brings-Aid-Supplies-to-Freetown-Sierra-Leone.jpg

http://navaltoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/HNLMS-Karel-Doorman-Sets-Sail-On-July-1.jpg

For maritime support the ship will have Two Replenishment-At-Sea masts, the holding capacity of approx 8000 m3 of fuel, more than 1000 m3 of helicopter fuel, approx 450 m3 of potable water and approx 400 tonnes of ammunition and other supplies.

The JLSS has 2,000 lane metres for transport of material such as tracked & wheeled vehicles or containers. She has an elevator and crane for up to 40 tons, a roll on/roll off facility for vehicles, and a steel beach stern construction for accommodating cargo transfer via landing craft. The ship is equipped with two LCVP's landing craft.

For sea-basing operations she will have large helicopter deck with landing spots for operating two Chinooks simultaneously, and a hangar with a storage capacity of up to 6 medium sized helicopters, including NH-90, CH-47F and AH-64D Apache.

The ship can accommodate up to 300 personnel, of which 159 are the ship's crew. She also has command rooms for war staffs and a large hospital facility with 20 treatment areas, and two surgery rooms. Modular flexibility allows configuration of temporary areas for evacuees or prisoners.

Positioned off shore, the ship is designed to act as a Sea Based Operations Platform supporting (amphibious) land forces with logistic support providing supplies and helicopter support (transport and attack).

Queenston Class will be less versetile but a better "true" AOR vessel.(from what i understand)

http://contrarian.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Chateauguay.jpg  (hope i've got the right one,lol)

The Joint Support Ship Project envisions several multi-role vessels capable of supporting the Royal Canadian Navy's warships at sea, as well as providing strategic sealift and some airlift for naval task groups or army operations. The vessels will have a multi-purpose covered deck with the ability to carry up to 10,000 tonnes of ship fuel, 1,300 tonnes of aviation fuel, 1,100 tonnes of ammunition as well as 1,000–1,500 lane metres of deck space for carrying vehicles and containerized cargo. The vessels will also have hospital facilities as well as a large helicopter deck with two landing spots, hangar space for four helicopters, and a roll-on/roll-off deck for vehicles onto a dock.[9]
 
Don't worry about mixing up Oberon's and Upholders. We all make mistakes - and in any event it resulted in a teaching moment for those who are unaware of this situation, which is one of the great benefits of these fora.  [:D

However, concerning your last post: There is no comparison between the Karel Doorman and the Queenston class for the AOR function: You have to compare apples with apples: The KD can carry 8000 cubic meters of fuel, that is 7120 metric tons. The Q can carry 10000 metric tons, so basically 30% more. The difference is even greater for avgas: KD carries 1000 cubic meters, which is 820 metric tons to Q 1300 metric tons, or 50 % more. Cargo and ammo is even worse: KD = 400 tons, Q = 1100 tons.

As for flexibility, well Queenston will have some capability to carry army vehicles, though not as much as KD, some hospital facilities, though a little smaller than KD and the capacity to carry some extra support personnel and small number of troops, again even though not as much as KD.

However, in the Dutch Navy, they consider the KD as a support vessel for their amphibious forces first and the "AOR" role second. In Canada it's the reverse, which is logical as we have much greater distances to travel with our Task Forces to get to any place where we fight on sea, be it the Med., the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, etc. The likelihood of the Queenston being required to support land operation when required is very small, whereas fuelling gas guzzling Destroyers and Frigates is going to be the Queenston's daily bread and butter.
 
Oldgateboatdriver said:
Don't worry about mixing up Oberon's and Upholders. We all make mistakes - and in any event it resulted in a teaching moment for those who are unaware of this situation, which is one of the great benefits of these fora.  [:D

However, concerning your last post: There is no comparison between the Karel Doorman and the Queenston class for the AOR function: You have to compare apples with apples: The KD can carry 8000 cubic meters of fuel, that is 7120 metric tons. The Q can carry 10000 metric tons, so basically 30% more. The difference is even greater for avgas: KD carries 1000 cubic meters, which is 820 metric tons to Q 1300 metric tons, or 50 % more. Cargo and ammo is even worse: KD = 400 tons, Q = 1100 tons.

As for flexibility, well Queenston will have some capability to carry army vehicles, though not as much as KD, some hospital facilities, though a little smaller than KD and the capacity to carry some extra support personnel and small number of troops, again even though not as much as KD.

However, in the Dutch Navy, they consider the KD as a support vessel for their amphibious forces first and the "AOR" role second. In Canada it's the reverse, which is logical as we have much greater distances to travel with our Task Forces to get to any place where we fight on sea, be it the Med., the Caribbean, the Persian Gulf, etc. The likelihood of the Queenston being required to support land operation when required is very small, whereas fuelling gas guzzling Destroyers and Frigates is going to be the Queenston's daily bread and butter.

Again true OGBD ,the KD is used primarily in the way you said. ;)

As for my statement about the cooperation with "Ze" Germans  >:D ,The Dutch Marines and the German "Seebattaillon work together(under Dutch Command) and use the(amongst other)the KD for exercises,so the problem arises for the availability of the KD for "her"AOR tasks,that's why the Navy is looking to order an additional ship,a true tanker.(just for the AOR part)
 
You could have 1 of these on each coast and an AOR, the JSS could support more of the coastal ops and arctic, while the AOR  do the deep sea stuff. Toss in the Asterix as a AOR relief ship and we have deep capabilities back into the RCN. 
 
Colin P said:
You could have 1 of these on each coast and an AOR, the JSS could support more of the coastal ops and arctic, while the AOR  do the deep sea stuff. Toss in the Asterix as a AOR relief ship and we have deep capabilities back into the RCN.

That's actually what my "fantasy" Canadian Navy looks like if we do not procure any amphibious assault ships, just seems like our style... I would love if Canada managed to get itself 18 surface combatants (6 for AAW), if the Dewolfs can replace the Kingstons, then 12 of em'! And 12 A-26 SSK's with 5 at-sea-replenishment capable ships (2 Queenstons, 2 Karel Doormans, 1 Asterix). I would also love if we could help our Northern communities grow and provide at least some more deep sea ports... Tuktoyaktuk, Cambridge Bay, Resolute, Rankin Inlet (Or re-invest in Churchill which will never happen), finish Nanisivik! Start Iqaluit! I would also love if we could start something similar to the Australian Marine Complex so we could centralize a lot of our industry on one of our coasts so that many companies can use the space for shipbuilding and keep business and tech healthy. But boots and so much more first. Sorry for that unnecessary rant of fantasy procurement excitement.

Do the Dutch have any LHD ship designs? I know Canada tried to procure those two Mistrals, and Naval Group is probably privately trying to pitch at least their more HADR minded Mistral 140 design to us and many others nations. I know DAMEN provides the Rotterdam LPD (is it an LPD?), what would the differences be in what we would require. Like say... A new battalion for over-seas rapid deployment, helicopter differences (would we need an attack helicopter at all?), how many would we need for an LHD vs LPD (Say if an LHD could hold 10x Cyclones total +the hangar, would we need to buy... 12 or more?), etc. Basically I am unaware of the fundamental differences in mission purpose and capability between the two. I know there are zero plans now to my knowledge for any amphibious assault ships, but I still think it would be possible if the global atmosphere changes a bit more (Northwest passage opening up, more submarine activity etc), as with getting more submarines.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, I just love shipbuilding, infrastructure, warships, but I know diddly about the details.
 
Perhaps if the Egyptians can't keep things together, the Mistralskis may come up on the market in the future?
 
Agreed, we should have bought them when we had the chance if we were to get them.
 
serger989 said:
That's actually what my "fantasy" Canadian Navy looks like if we do not procure any amphibious assault ships, just seems like our style... I would love if Canada managed to get itself 18 surface combatants (6 for AAW), if the Dewolfs can replace the Kingstons, then 12 of em'! And 12 A-26 SSK's with 5 at-sea-replenishment capable ships (2 Queenstons, 2 Karel Doormans, 1 Asterix). I would also love if we could help our Northern communities grow and provide at least some more deep sea ports... Tuktoyaktuk, Cambridge Bay, Resolute, Rankin Inlet (Or re-invest in Churchill which will never happen), finish Nanisivik! Start Iqaluit! I would also love if we could start something similar to the Australian Marine Complex so we could centralize a lot of our industry on one of our coasts so that many companies can use the space for shipbuilding and keep business and tech healthy. But boots and so much more first. Sorry for that unnecessary rant of fantasy procurement excitement.

Do the Dutch have any LHD ship designs? I know Canada tried to procure those two Mistrals, and Naval Group is probably privately trying to pitch at least their more HADR minded Mistral 140 design to us and many others nations. I know DAMEN provides the Rotterdam LPD (is it an LPD?), what would the differences be in what we would require. Like say... A new battalion for over-seas rapid deployment, helicopter differences (would we need an attack helicopter at all?), how many would we need for an LHD vs LPD (Say if an LHD could hold 10x Cyclones total +the hangar, would we need to buy... 12 or more?), etc. Basically I am unaware of the fundamental differences in mission purpose and capability between the two. I know there are zero plans now to my knowledge for any amphibious assault ships, but I still think it would be possible if the global atmosphere changes a bit more (Northwest passage opening up, more submarine activity etc), as with getting more submarines.

Sorry for the lack of knowledge, I just love shipbuilding, infrastructure, warships, but I know diddly about the details.

Don't think we or Damen allready have a LHD design,but if we asked Damen i'm sure they can come up with a design. ;)

R'dam is indeed an LPD as is the Johan de Witt.I know the KD can store the CH-53 in her hangar below decks.

HNLMS Johan de Witt:The ship is equipped with a large helicopter deck for helicopter operations and a dock for large landing craft. It can carry six NH 90 helicopters or four Chinook helicopters. It has a well dock for two landing craft utility and it carries four davit-launched LCVPs. The dock is wide enough to support two LCAC.

The vessel has an extra deck with rooms for command staff to support a battalion size operation. The ship has a complete Class II hospital, including an operation theatre and intensive care facilities. A surgical team can be stationed on board. The ship also has a desalination system enabling it to convert seawater into drinking water.

It is also equipped with pod propulsion to ensure the ship stays in position when sea basing.

Rotterdam Class Landing Platform Dock (LPD):The ship is operated by a crew of 124, including 13 officers. Accommodation is also provided for a fully equipped marine battalion or up to 613 troops. HrMs Rotterdam has facilities to transport 170 armoured personnel carriers, or 33 main battle tanks, plus docking facilities for up to six landing craft, for example six LCVP mk3, four LCU mk9 or four LCM 8 landing craft.

HrMs Rotterdam has extensive fully equipped hospital facilities with a medical treatment room, a medical operating theatre and a medical laboratory.

As for attack heli's,we operate the Apache wich will be upgraded:he Netherlands -­ Upgrade AH-64D APACHE Block I Helicopters to Block II

As for the subs,as said it seems we're going in the direction of th A-26ER,hope this helps.
 
This fall the first SMART-L MM/N will be delivered to the RNLN(SMART-L MM/N is known as the Smart-L Multi Mission/Naval version,or formerly known as the SMART-L EWC/ ELR)to replace the SMART-L on board of the LCF-class.

This radar will be able to detect targets(Satellites,ICBM)at a distance from at least 2000 kms.

So that will propel the Dutch ships in leading roles at providing support for naval NAVO/NATO squadrons(make them "Kings" of the Squadrons if i may call them that)

This means that the Dutch are the second nation,US was first,to be able to do that.

https://youtu.be/qtVh539mRng

Here's an article,sorry it's in Dutch,but you'll get the meaning.(i hope)

https://marineschepen.nl/dossiers/SMART-L-MM-N-radar-antwoord-Thales-op-dreiging-ballistische-raketten.html

As you may or may not be able to understand from this article(or know allready),in 2006,during the first tests,the Americans were blown away about the capabillities of the SMART-L and admitted that the Dutch(Thales or as it's formely known HSA,Hollandse Signaal Apparaten), are at least 6 years ahead of them in radar science/design.

HSA are the maincreators of the first 3-D radar system in the world on board a ship(an evolution of the "Broomstick radar on board the Tromp-class),The Goalkeeper and the SMART-L.(to name a few)

Dutch ships(LCF)will also take part in Formidable Shield 2017,which will start next week.

 
No offense, but not the "prettiest" vessel I have seen, how is her sea keeping? Handling her with all that sail area forward must be interesting in high winds.
 
Colin P said:
No offense, but not the "prettiest" vessel I have seen, how is her sea keeping? Handling her with all that sail area forward must be interesting in high winds.

Well Colin tastes differ ,i quite like them and think they're one of the more prettier ships around nowadays.  [Xp

as for seakeeping well i think they're quite good,since they're designed to go globally(not an active crewmember,but i will ask),and btw not to sound to braggy,i think we know how to build ships we've been doing it for quite a while now.

https://youtu.be/O87Yl8_gQWA

And her "maiden"(test)voyage.when there was still a bit to be improved.(vibrations in the back of the ship),that was corrected immediately.

https://youtu.be/ajU-xlTv9N8

And for the fans,lol,here's one of Hr.Ms De Ruyter going full speed.

https://youtu.be/e_b_NzUAvuo

here' are the older ones in action(M-class)"Van Nes" and "Van Speyk" (last 2 in the RNLN)

https://youtu.be/G-6V55tCF3E

Hope you like.  ;)
 
Well finally some good news for the Dutch Defence Budget.  ;D

As it seems the new cabinet(politics)will probably put a serious amount of money towards the Budget,there's talk about a 1.5 Billion plus,the total of the Budget will go from 8.5 Billion now towards 10 billion.

All this is needed to buy,spare-parts,munitions,to better the collective employment agreement,etc,the rest of the extra money will be put to the investments neede to update certain things(weapons,,etc)

the article is in Dutch,sorry for that.


'Nieuwe coalitie trekt zo'n 1,5 miljard uit voor defensie'

https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nederland/politiek/nieuwe-coalitie-trekt-zon-15-miljard-uit-voor-defensie


So finaly after about 25 years of cuts,there's a reverse wich is much needed,as you'll know we need a lot of new ships,replacement M-class,Alkmaar-class(minehunters), the Walrus-class subs,a new Tanker,etc, and that's just the Navy. 
 
So here's a personal story,history,about the landings in Sicily dating from 1943.(a one time "side step")

I know there's a history(military)box here on the forum,but since this is Dutch and to be fair my family's history i will put it here.

What you may or may not know is that i come from a "marine" family,that meaning my granddad, (story here),my dad and 2 uncles were marines in the Dutch Marine Corps,and there are still nephews who are in the Corps.

The official motto of the Dutch marines is"Qua patet orbis " wich means in dutch "Zo wijd de wereld strekt." wich rougly translates in English as "as far as the world extends" this as an aside.

Here's the story about 2 Dutch Gunboats aiding the allies at the landings in Sicily,my granddad(H.P.Leever) was part of it aboard the "Flores" and was distinguished with the bronze cross.


The Terrible Twins

During the war, many, often somewhat romanticized, newspaper articles were written about courage under fire. An especially interesting subject for reporters were the exploits of the navies in exile, and the Royal Netherlands Navy was no exception. The following article is from the newspaper "Voice of the Netherlands", dated August 7, 1943 [1]. The gunboats, or better sloops, in question are the Flores and Soemba, which became known in the Royal Navy as the "Terrible Twins".

A special correspondent in the Mediterranean emphases the part which ships of the Dutch Navy are playing in the operations off Sicily.

The First official announcement of their presence was contained in General Eisenhower's communiqué of July 10th. Then came the story of the Dutch gunboat, which silenced shore batteries during the landings. As the Allies disembarked in a small bay they found that certain shore guns had managed to get the range of the beach and were causing considerable trouble. The Dutch gunboat closed in to less than a mile off shore and put the batteries out of action with a few well-placed broadsides.

The short official information is amplified by the special correspondent who cables: "Squat, camouflaged fighting ships of the Royal Netherlands Navy are playing a considerable part in the operations off Sicily. Two gunboats in particular have been bombarding enemy gun positions and troop concentrations on the eastern beaches, non-stop day and night, since the start of the invasion.

"Like terriers chasing rats, they refuse to leave them alone. They pour in shells so fiercely and with such grim determination that it is no exaggeration to say that they steam up and down the coast leaving a long snaking trail of empty, cordite-blackened shell cases floating astern. They show complete disregard for personal danger and never miss an opportunity to bombard at close range."

The two gunboats' exploits made one British gunnery officer say: "It is fantastic how these little ships sail in to attack with the Netherlands Ensign flying cockily at the masthead. Their gunnery officer, dressed in khaki, unconcernedly stands on the bridge, calmly surveying the coastline.

"In the early stages of the campaign the Dutch gunboats took on eight strong Axis batteries on the top of a hill. The boats dashed in, and in an incredibly short while secured direct hits on three of the shore batteries. They killed the gun crews, and when our forward troops reached the position they found the five other batteries abandoned." At one stage of the land battle for the Catania plain the Germans, harassed and confused by the Navy' s persistent sea bombardment, brought up an enormous gun and started a terrific barrage, throwing up gigantic columns of water. The Dutch gunboats were completely outranged, but they overcame that by rushing in, firing salvos all the time, and then twisting and turning out again, only to repeat the manoeuvre.

Another British officer said: "These Dutchmen have the right fighting spirit. Nothing will stop them, and they won't cease firing. The only rest they had during the nights of unceasing bombardments was when they ran out of ammunition, and then they returned, reshelled and refuelled, and were off again. They will take on anything. Last Friday, when we knew them to be some distance away, they came rushing in at the sound of firing and went full speed ahead into the fray. Their shells roared overhead, straddling us. We could not make out where the firing came from until someone said 'It 's those damned Dutchmen again; you can't keep them out of anything!' And he was right.

[1]: The "Voice of the Netherlands" was first published in August 1941, and last in September 1946.

gr,walter.

My dad fought as did my uncles in Indonesia and i myself(not marine material, ;D)served in the Dutch Airforce as a stinger-shooter protecting the Patriot batteries(my squadron 327)during the Gulf war(1990-91),or as it's known "Desert Storm".

This as an aside,just wanted you'll to know where i come from so to speak.My "love",if i may call it that,lies with the Navy. ;D

Not only during over lord also during the landings in italy where the flores and soemba gained the name terrible twins .

there is a small film of the flores actualy firing on D-Day:(reconstruction)

https://youtu.be/BzZ1vRa_JtE
 
Karel Doorman: Here's a photo and article--the vessels had remarkably long service (launched 1926):

nl_of_6.gif

http://www.navypedia.org/ships/netherlands/nl_of_flores.htm

Also :

DUTCH GUNBOATS BACK FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN. 16 MARCH 1944, PORTSMOUTH. ADMIRAL J TH FURNSTER AND REAR ADMIRAL J W TERMIJTELEN, OF THE ROYAL NETHERLANDS NAVY INSPECTED THE GUNBOATS HNMS FLORES AND SOEMBA ON THEIR RETURN FROM THE MEDITERRANEAN.
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http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205154585

Plus see here for an account of Sicily in a book:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=XDqBUqnrFLYC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=netherlands+gunboats+Flores+and+Soemba&source=bl&ots=yZ1LsPla6r&sig=YgY19l0lqKvcu8HfkXncmaqY_1Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBnfG-kMHWAhVXzWMKHXIdATUQ6AEIbjAP#v=onepage&q=netherlands%20gunboats%20Flores%20and%20Soemba&f=false

Mark
Ottawa
 
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